Qadafi may have fled to Venezuela (unconfirmed but credible British sources)

[visionary]

There's an amazing interview on CNN 9on tv) right now, Anderson Cooper talking to the Sky News reporter who spent days amid the massacre of Zawiyah.

[twa]

Debka reporting negotiations to spare Benghazi by giving up oil facilities

http://www.debka.com/article/20745/

BS???

[visionary]

Debka reporting negotiations to spare Benghazi by giving up oil facilities

http://www.debka.com/article/20745/

BS???

I don't think it's true.

But as Gaddafi gains more ground in the West and continually uses his air force to pound the opposition into pieces there, I wouldn't be surprised if they start becoming a lot less diehard in Benghazi and may be less willing to go the way of Zawiyah.

But we'll see.

There's still a very good chance that Gaddafi will have to kill hundreds of thousands more, if not millions of Libyans to get control of Benghazi.

---------- Post added March-10th-2011 at 09:36 AM ----------

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-10-0

2:51pm Rebel fighters are retreating from positions in Ras Lanuf after heavy bombardment, says the AFP news agency.

3:02pm The hospital in Ras Lanuf has been evacuated - under rocket fire, AFP says.

At least four rockets exploded near the hospital and a mosque where rebel fighters had just finished praying, reports the agency.

Doctors and medics were reported fleeing the premises amid panic, cramming patients into the few amublances available.

3:10pm Al Jazeera's Hoda Abdel Hamid, reporting from Benghazi, tells us there is a feeling there that "the tide is reversing", and people are worried the city could be next in line for Gaddafi's backlash.

About eight days ago, people were very excited that the rebels were advancing town after town. But now the reverse may be true.

Brega is only 200km away from here, and our sources there tell us they are coming under aerial bombardment.

From the beginning, Saif al-Islam Gaddafi said that if the upising continued, they could forget all about having any oil or gas and it seems that is coming true.

Sirte was always going to be the tipping point, but at the moment, they [armed anti-Gaddafi fighters] ar unable to push forward.

I think there is a realisation that this is going to be a long, long uprising - and that they are still exposed.

The military command here feel that as long as there is no international backup, there is not much they can do.

4:00pm We got Al Jazeera's Tony Birtley on the phone, who told us how he found himself on the front lines of the fighting, just outside Ras Lanuf.

We've been wondering for the last few days about why Gaddafi has not employed his full forces, and today we've seen those forces in action.

We were caught right in the middle as his forces out-flanked, and then out-bombed and out-shot the opposition forces. There was sustained aerial and artillery and mortar bombardment, and then following in by a flanking movement.

There have been a number of casualties. We've seen trucks going along the highway, but that's being shelled by Gaddafi forces all the way along. I counted ... 50 shells falling.

We've seen trucks with wounded lying in the back of pick-ups, and I think the casualty toll is going to be high. We also saw and heard extensive ground fire coming from the beach [in the north], we think there's been a flanking movement from the beach.

But it seems like the major offensive that we thought was going to happen is underway now.

[visionary]

Well then....

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-10-0

5:30pm Ras Lanuf now in control of Gaddafi's forces, says Al Jazeera's Tony Birtley. One rebel commander told him that all his men were killed when Libyan troops arrived. Casualties remaining in the town's hospital were shot dead, a source tells him.

[visionary]

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-10-0

6:14pm More from Al Jazeera's Tony Birtley, whose vehicle was hit by gunfire on the road outside Ras Lanuf. Je descibes the scene:

We were travelling with one of the commanders who told me that all of his men were killed by pro-Gaddafi forces when they came into the town, so its pretty heavy fighting there.

A lot of them have run away, but there is a hard core of opposition fighters who are going back in to fight. There are dozens that have been killed, and many more wounded, but a lot of the bodies still remain behind in Ras Lanuf.

We actually stood on a hillock and watched the operation in progress. Pummelling by artillery, mortars, and then by the air force. And then the attack came from both the sea and the west of the town, and it was quite brutal when it came. We were told that patients in the hospital, which had already been shelled earlier, were shot. Of course there is no independent corroboration of that, but it sounded like it was pretty ugly in there.

The difference has been with this attack they tried to hit the main crossroads where the main concentration of opposition forces was. But they followed the road in, and we actually saw the attack in motion, and they dropped two bombs. They missed the crossroads slightly, and missed the ammunition dumps which are nearby ... and pretty soon afterwards the main offensive was launched.

It showed the professionalism of Gaddafi's troops and it shows that ... he's hitting back. So this is a warning. And also his air force has hit Brega which is further east, it seems a major offensive is underway.

[sacase]

This is going to be similar to Iraq 1991 again. Without international support, the rebels are going to get crushed. However, I agree that we should keep ouro noses out of it. As much as I want to help them, we can't deal with a third war. We are stretched to thin as it is and our soldiers do not needed the added stress. Its time for Europe to take care of problems in their back yard.

[visionary]

This is going to be similar to Iraq 1991 again. Without international support, the rebels are going to get crushed. However, I agree that we should keep ouro noses out of it. As much as I want to help them, we can't deal with a third war. We are stretched to thin as it is and our soldiers do not needed the added stress. Its time for Europe to take care of problems in their back yard.

Everyone wants someone else to do it.

Meanwhile people get slaughtered by the thousands and Gaddafi's grip on Libya grows tighter.

This is exactly what Gaddafi wants.

I don't blame anyone for not wanting to get involved.

But if someone doesn't step up soon it'll be too late for Libya to survive as a country or a people.

---------- Post added March-10th-2011 at 01:18 PM ----------

http://twitter.com/bencnn

Anti-Qaddafi forces advising civilians leave the Al-Brega area concerned government forces will continue eastward advance. #Libya 9 minutes ago via web

[visionary]

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-10-0

9:39pm Al Jazeera Online's Evan Hill, reporting from north Libya, tweets:

Rebels have been driven from the town of Ras Lanuf, but I am told by a source who was there there an hour ago they still hold the refinery.

You can follow him for yourself: @evanchill

[DCBnG21]

Everyone wants someone else to do it.

Meanwhile people get slaughtered by the thousands and Gaddafi's grip on Libya grows tighter.

This is exactly what Gaddafi wants.

I don't blame anyone for not wanting to get involved.

But if someone doesn't step up soon it'll be too late for Libya to survive as a country or a people.

---------- Post added March-10th-2011 at 01:18 PM ----------

http://twitter.com/bencnn

I have a buddy who is a Libyan who is in constant contact with his family & other folks in Libya right now. He reminds me on a daily basis that they don't want anything to do with us over there as if I'm able to do something about it personally.

My understanding is that through diplomatic channels we are being kindly told to, "mind our own business."

I don't think America can really act here unless a formal request is made for our help and there is some consensus throughout the Arab league that we're being asked to step in & not just butting in where we're not wanted.

I think it's becoming clear that Ghaddafi wasn't actually kidding when he was saying he was holding back from what this could become and now appears to be more than ready to go there.

Something needs to be done - but if the resistance started screaming for help, it would probably increase the opportunity of it happening a great deal.

[sacase]

I have a buddy who is a Libyan who is in constant contact with his family & other folks in Libya right now. He reminds me on a daily basis that they don't want anything to do with us over there as if I'm able to do something about it personally.

My understanding is that through diplomatic channels we are being kindly told to, "mind our own business."

I don't think America can really act here unless a formal request is made for our help and there is some consensus throughout the Arab league that we're being asked to step in & not just butting in where we're not wanted.

I think it's becoming clear that Ghaddafi wasn't actually kidding when he was saying he was holding back from what this could become and now appears to be more than ready to go there.

Something needs to be done - but if the resistance started screaming for help, it would probably increase the opportunity of it happening a great deal.

I think the world is going to stand by and watch. We were the only country willing and able to efficiently take care of the problem and now we are tied down with two wars, and massive deficit. Everyone is expecting us to do it, but they are about to see we are going to sit on the sidlines.

[Predicto]

This thread is so sad and frustrating.

I can't help but think that if we hadn't poisoned the waters by invading Iraq out of the blue, we would have a much freer hand to intervene in situations like this that cry out for intervention. Be that as it may, our hands are pretty much tied unless we can get other countries on board, and fast.

[No Excuses]

This will end in millions of Libyan's massacred. You can't expect rebel forces to sustain for long enough when Gaddafi has the air force at his disposal along with cooperation from other countries.

The lack of international help speaks more about the rest of the countries than it does about us.

[Riggo-toni]

This thread is so sad and frustrating.

I can't help but think that if we hadn't poisoned the waters by invading Iraq out of the blue, we would have a much freer hand to intervene in situations like this that cry out for intervention.

Even had we not invaded Iraq, I don't think we would be getting involved in this. It is certainly tragic and a humanitarian disaster, but this is almost as much a civil war as it is a revolution, and Libya's isolation from decades of living under Ghadafi's iron fist means we really have no idea what sort of gov't/society would emerge if we did intervene to topple him.

In the 80s we sent troops into Lebanon to stop the Maronite troops from slaughtering Muslim civilians after the massacres at Sabra and Shatila, and in the end radical Muslims sent a suicide bomber after our troops. As frustrating as it is to sit by and do nothing, there's no exit strategy if we do get involved - something we've overlooked/ignored everytime we get involved in the middle east.

[visionary]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/10/libya.civil.war/index.html?hpt=T2

Neely said said doctors had told him that scores of civilians were wounded or killed; they called the onslaught a massacre. He said he counted more than 20 freshly dug graves.

Workers were sweeping up the evidence as supporters of Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi chanted slogans and waved green flags. "Today Zawiya, tomorrow Benghazi," Neely said one man told him in a reference to Libya's main rebel-held city in the east.

Zawiya itself, once home to 250,000 residents, appeared largely empty. Shops were closed and houses appeared empty, Neely said.

Payback appears to have begun, said one man, who told ITV that government forces were carrying out house-to-house searches in Zawiya. "They start to arrest people, normal people," he said. "Some of them I know personally; they have nothing to do with what's happening."

---------- Post added March-10th-2011 at 08:29 PM ----------

Even had we not invaded Iraq, I don't think we would be getting involved in this. It is certainly tragic and a humanitarian disaster, but this is almost as much a civil war as it is a revolution, and Libya's isolation from decades of living under Ghadafi's iron fist means we really have no idea what sort of gov't/society would emerge if we did intervene to topple him.

In the 80s we sent troops into Lebanon to stop the Maronite troops from slaughtering Muslim civilians after the massacres at Sabra and Shatila, and in the end radical Muslims sent a suicide bomber after our troops. As frustrating as it is to sit by and do nothing, there's no exit strategy if we do get involved - something we've overlooked/ignored everytime we get involved in the middle east.

I don't know that I'd characterize a battle of Gaddafi, his family, his inner circle, and his elite soldier regiments vs 80% of the rest of the people of Libya a civil war.

It certainly is depressing though.

[Predicto]

Even had we not invaded Iraq, I don't think we would be getting involved in this. It is certainly tragic and a humanitarian disaster, but this is almost as much a civil war as it is a revolution, and Libya's isolation from decades of living under Ghadafi's iron fist means we really have no idea what sort of gov't/society would emerge if we did intervene to topple him.

In the 80s we sent troops into Lebanon to stop the Maronite troops from slaughtering Muslim civilians after the massacres at Sabra and Shatila, and in the end radical Muslims sent a suicide bomber after our troops. As frustrating as it is to sit by and do nothing, there's no exit strategy if we do get involved - something we've overlooked/ignored everytime we get involved in the middle east.

I'm not advocating troops on the ground. But a no-fly zone might have helped. The sixth fleet appearing off Tripoli might have sent a message.

I dunno. It just sucks to watch this happen.

[visionary]

I'm not advocating troops on the ground. But a no-fly zone might have helped. The sixth fleet appearing off Tripoli might have sent a message.

I dunno. It just sucks to watch this happen.

Personally I don't know how much a no fly zone would have helped in other cities, I do think it could have been important in Ras Lanuf, which was pounded from the air by Gaddafi's airforce. It also constantly shattered the moral of the opposition fighters there and in Bin Jawad. Gaddafi's airforce was a huge fact in turning this battle of the gateway to the east in his favor.

I also wonder if there would have been any way to evacuate Zawiyah by sea before it was surrounded.

I guess we'll never know now.

[visionary]

The Sky News reporter who was in Zawiyah for a while, just said on CNN that the Gaddafi troops were constantly shooting and killing their own injured so that they couldn't give any information to the people of Zawiyah when the rest of them retreated.

(the people there usually tried to treat and save any soldier still alive)

[twa]

This thread is so sad and frustrating.

I can't help but think that if we hadn't poisoned the waters by invading Iraq out of the blue, we would have a much freer hand to intervene in situations like this that cry out for intervention. Be that as it may, our hands are pretty much tied unless we can get other countries on board, and fast.

How many Iraqi's died before we invaded again?

Out of the blue my ass,we never even fully disengaged

[Riggo-toni]

I don't know that I'd characterize a battle of Gaddafi, his family, his inner circle, and his elite soldier regiments vs 80% of the rest of the people of Libya a civil war.

I said "almost." Libya is a tribal society, an artificial Italian creation just like Somalia. Right now they're united against Ghadafi, no question - just like Mao and Chang Kai Shek were once united against Japan. If Ghadafi goes, its society might very likely fracture around tribal lines.

That's not to say I wouldn't still prefer to see the fruitcake gone and see what happens, mind you. Just saying....

[visionary]

I said "almost." Libya is a tribal society, an artificial Italian creation just like Somalia. Right now they're united against Ghadafi, no question - just like Mao and Chang Kai Shek were once united against Japan. If Ghadafi goes, its society might very likely fracture around tribal lines.

That's not to say I wouldn't still prefer to see the fruitcake gone and see what happens, mind you. Just saying....

Possibly, I think that is more likely now than it was the past few weeks when pretty every tribe was calling for a unified new Libya without Gaddafi.

Everyone has been very much against leaving Libya un-unified or just as tribes.

From what I gather though, the tribes are more like states or local governments there than anything else.

The people have loyalty to Libya and their family first than somewhere down the line comes tribes.

(which would seem odd in a country only recently created, but in the East and the West they appear very fixed to the idea of staying together )

(unh...ok time for bed before I start feeling worse....)

[visionary]

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-11

Uh...wow! Weird.

5:17pm

Ras Lanuf, Sidra Port and Albargiya remain under rebel control after fierce battles, residents tell Al Jazeera.

Meanwhile, Gaddafi forces have pulled out of the residential areas of Ras Lanuf, says Reuters.

5:24pm Al Jazeera's Hoda Abdel Hamid, reporting from Benghazi, tells us the military commanders who joined the uprising are now better able to structure their fighters after the initial enthusiasm of the volunteers - which helped to win early battles - led to an ill-disciplined approach to battling a professional army.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-11

7:30pm The Libyan government has taken foreign press on an escorted tour of Az Zawiyah, a western city previously controlled by rebel forces. About 100 foreign journalists witnessed a pro-Gaddafi rally in the main square, where demonstrators shouted "I love Gaddafi, I love Gaddafi" in English.

[Riggo-toni]

Visionary (and Predicto),

My apologies if I've seemed too negative in the last couple of posts. And Visionary, once again I greatly appreciate all the work you put into keeping us updated.

[visionary]

Visionary (and Predicto),

My apologies if I've seemed too negative in the last couple of posts. And Visionary, once again I greatly appreciate all the work you put into keeping us updated.

I can't really blame anyone for being negative about the situation over there.

It's not an easy problem to solve, if it can be solved at all.

Things have gotten much worse this week too.

Even some of the people on twitter and over in the East of Libya seem much more worried now.

I've been fairly depressed about it all for days now.

As far as I can tell you're being realistic.

And thanks.

Although I have been cutting back some lately to try to focus on relaxing and getting healthy.

[visionary]

On CNN tonight Ben Wedeman says that the Opposition forces are running out of ammo and weapons.

Also Nic Robertson was showing a lot of video footage of the devastation that is Zawiyah.

Apparently Gadaffi has done quite a bit of cleaning up around there and they've even thrown drapes over buildings to cover the tank blast scars.

Gaddafi troops actually told him how they shot from tanks at the buildings to get at the people living in them.

From what I saw there's still plenty of wreckage and damage to the city and tons of ruined buildings.

---------- Post added March-11th-2011 at 11:51 PM ----------

I was just thinking it's too bad there isn't some kind of international organization that can go around and help out countries in need or oppressed peoples without having to go through all the international politics and other crap that the UN and NATO deal with.

Ideally it would be a collection of people from across the world coming together for the common goal of helping out those in need and offering support in various ways, from humanitarian aid, human rights, or even military assistance and operations if necessary.

Not that anything like that would ever really work out in real life probably....

[visionary]

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/11/gadhafi-thugs-grab-cnn-crew/?hpt=T2

read the whole thing on website

For a few moments today, for us personally, Libya’s lies and deceit were swept aside and the real deal was brutally exposed.

“Itla, itla” – "Get in the car, get in the car!" – he was screaming. My cameraman, Khalil Abdallah, and I hesitated for a split-second. But that's all it was.

We were staring down the barrel of an AK-47, the weapon was jumping in his hands. He was ****ing it, wrenching the handle back, a bullet being slammed into the firing chamber.

It was only a split-second.

We are free to go anywhere, any time, talk to who we want, when we want. That's what Moammar Gadhafi’s son told me, that's what Libya told the U.N. We already knew it was all lies – look at any number of our colleagues, arrested, detained, in some cases, beaten – but today it came home to us personally.

The hyper-aggressive jerk with the gun had just hit the jackpot.

There was him and three others. They were grabbing us, bundling us towards their pickup truck. He had a pistol in his belt, one of the others kept his AK trained on us too, and an older guy with the grey beard was speed-dialing his phone.

These are Gadhafi’s enforcers. They were looking for us.`

Another official waiting for us, one I'd not seen before, was more aggressive, telling cameraman Khalil: "If you’ve shot anything, I'm going to take you to the airport and deport you."

It took a long time to convince him Khalil hadn't shot any footage. Some journalists we talked to were inside the mosque when they were arrested. How they got out of that threat, I don’t know.

But right now we had only one concern: our taxi driver. We pleaded for his release –by now he could barely speak - but we were ignored.

He was stuttering and trembling as they stuffed him in his car and drove him away.

I still don’t know what’s happened to him. Our ordeal is over, but I fear his may only just be beginning.

That’s the reality of life here under Gadhafi’s rule.

In other news Brega has supposedly fallen to Gaddafi, and that's another major oil facility.

The only one left with the rebels would seem to be Tobruk if that's true.

Also there are reports that Misrata in the west is once again under attack.

---------- Post added March-12th-2011 at 09:57 AM ----------

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/03/201131281658181773.html

Libyan rebels in retreat

Gaddafi forces reverse rebels' advances as they recapture key towns and now threaten Benghazi, an opposition stronghold.

Libyan rebels, who for weeks rapidly advanced to the capital Tripoli in a bid to oust Muammar Gaddafi, appear to be losing momentum as the better armed government forces regain control of several towns in the east of the vast North African country.

Brega, the scene of a fierce battle just over a week ago, is the latest town recaptured by Libyan government forces on Saturday, as rebel fighters retreated in the face of intense air and ground firepower.

Al Jazeera's Nick Clark, reporting from the town of Tobruk, said that Gaddafi forces "are now in a good position to take on Benghazi," Libya's second largest city and a rebel stronghold.

Diplomatic pressure is having little impact on the fighting, as forces loyal to the Libyan leader continue to push eastward into territory held by the rebels.

Gaddafi's forces, with air supremacy and a big advantage in tanks, are maintaining the momentum on the ground.

But while his forces were advancing eastward, Al Jazeera's Tony Birtley reported from Benghazi that they were facing resistance from the rebels and that progress was slowed.

There were conflicting reports on which side controls Ras Lanuf, the main oil port town, where the opposition's advance stalled on Thursday.

"We're hearing the opposition forces are back in control of Ras Lanuf at the moment, although during the day, Gaddafi forces came back in," Clark said.

Neither side had full control on Saturday, as fighting continued. Gaddafi's warplanes were carrying out air strikes seemingly unhindered by insurgent anti-aircraft guns mounted on pick-up trucks.

Many rebels were angry at what they perceive as international inaction.

"Where is the West? How are they helping? What are they doing," shouted one fighter.

Witnesses said government forces had destroyed a graveyard where rebels had buried their dead.

Journalists were instructed to film what appeared to be hastily made graves.

It is unclear how many people, rebel fighters or otherwise, were killed in the fighting in Az Zawyiah.

---------- Post added March-12th-2011 at 10:02 AM ----------

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-12

4:21pm Libyan rebels concede defeat at eastern oil port town of Ras Lanuf to pro-Gadhafi forces, but vow to fight back.

r0KrdiU0Lv8

4:40pm Libyan government forces have launched an attack on the town of Misrata, seeking to retake the last remaining rebel holdout in the west of the country.

"They are trying to get into Misrata, they are now 10km away," Gemal, a rebel spokesman, told the Reuters news agency.

"We are hearing shelling. We have no choice but to fight," he said.

Another rebel, Mohamad Ahmed, said he could hear the sound of anti-aircraft guns getting closer to the city centre.

A resident, who gave his name only as Mohammed, confirmed an attack by Gaddafi's loyalists was under way: "I think they are 5km from the town now, I can hear loud explosions. Everybody is rushing home, the shops have closed and the rebels are taking positions in the neighbourhoods".