Just watched Lichtensteiger vs. NYG week 17

[pram11]

Been watching a few games lately and looking at specific players. I've watched the week 17 game vs. the Giants twice and focused on two specific players -- Jamaal Brown and Kory Lichtensteiger -- with a peripheral on Trent Williams. Call me crazy, but Lichtensteiger looked like our best and most efficient lineman in that game. Brown's athletic ability really stands out, particularly his ability in the zone run game to get to the 2nd level and push defenders around. That said, he had 4-5 negative plays in ISO pass-pro when he got bull-rushed and walked into the QB. Trent Williams gave up a couple of eye-popping no-no type plays, including a game-changer. I watched every play of Lichtensteiger and he had 3 negative plays, only one of which was of a physical variety. Early in the game, he failed to pick up a stunt and allowed a clear path to the QB. Later in the 1st half he got bull-rushed by Cofield and walked into Grossman's comfort zone. And in the 4th quarter he was late picking up a delayed blitz on which a lineman was standing up as an ILB and appeared to be playing a zone. But watching this guy, I really think we have a solid staring interior player, the only question being: does he stay at guard or does Mike Shanahan move him to center? But he appears to be the prototypical interior zone player that Shanny somehow seems to find and groom into solid starters, ala Ben Hamilton. He really is a good athlete for an interior lineman. Shanny said he wants linemen that can run, and Lichtensteiger can clearly do that. A couple of times he got out on screens and the foot-speed for a big guy is evident, nearly moving too fast to allow his back time to set things up. He gets to the 2nd-level and laterally rides linemen out of lanes in the zone-run. He has good feet and balance in pass pro and really uses his help to limit the moves and rush lanes of the lineman he's blocking. One good indicator of how athletic a lineman is, particularly interior players, is how often they end up on the ground; it's rare that you see Kory on the ground. Two or three times he got in awkward positions that would have resulted in most interior guys losing their footing, but Kory has the athletic ability to not only keep his feet, but recover and regain his balance. I heard a lot of bad things about this dude and it's really hard to know until you zero in on a guy every play, and while I'm no football coach and it's only one game, I state very confidently that this guy can not only play, but be a solid, long-term starting lineman for this staff and in this scheme. I'm just curious if his position is at guard, or will Shanny ponder moving him to center? Personally, I'd leave him where he's at, because it appears the guy is coming into his own at the left guard position.

[Redskins4ever]

Lictensteiger was one of our most productive linemen last season. He's played excellently at the LG position. He's clearly suited for the zone blocking plays that the Redskins run, and he certainly can pass protect. What's most positive about Lichtensteiger is that he can play LG, RG, or C.

[pram11]

Agreed, and I guess I had a bad opinion of him without really watching his play closely due to all of the junk B-Mitch said about him. Goes to show that Mitchell doesn't know half of what he's talking about. I was really impressed with what I saw and the skill set to excel as an interior player in this scheme is clearly there. The weak link to our line is the center position. I would love to get Kalil, who I think could go to 4 or 5 pro bowls in this scheme. And if we could pull off Kalil and Harris, that would give us four starters suited for the zone and all of them are 26-years or younger.

[The Full Monty]

Great info! I also thought Lichtensteiger improved throughout the year. Also, I totally agree on signing Ryan Kalil. That would be a huge upgrade. Kalil has been a Pro Bowl alternate the past two years despite being on a horrific Panthers team in decline. Says a lot about his ability Combined with his youth, I'd say move over Rabach. Your days are numbered..

[Chump Bailey]

I'm just curious if his position is at guard, or will Shanny ponder moving him to center? Personally, I'd leave him where he's at, because it appears the guy is coming into his own at the left guard position.

I wish they would move him to C. That's the position he played at Bowling Green and rated pretty highly. I think Mayock liked him too. I'm hoping that move was just because of Dockery's inability to play the LG position. Brown when he is healthy is obviously very good. Trent hopefully will progress. We can have one of the better OL's in football with a few moves. The problem is I don't see Rabach going anywhere or losing his job as starter. I hope i'm wrong.

[bedlamVR]

I think there was nothing they could feesibly do last season in changing CR - there were not an awful lot of good upgrades/alternatives available given the weak free agency period . I do think he is gone though - That said I think rather than has been suggested then I do not see a massive personel change is required on the offensive line . I think we deffinatly need a C and that might be someone on the roster or a draft pick but otherwise if we can get Brown resigned at RT and if BMW can compete for a spot at G then i think it will be a more of a reshuffling than rebuilt line .

[SWFLSkins]

Great analysis, but could you edit with a an indent or two. That paragraph hurt"ed" my eyes. I really thought that the Shanny's made some good moves to improve the worst unit on the team. Hopefully this year Center gets upgraded with some other depth brought in for back-up.

[darrelgreenie]

Personally, I'd leave him where he's at, because it appears the guy is coming into his own at the left guard position.

Corey had a few bad games but on the whole I think he played better then people realize.

I thought he played above replacement level and earned at least another season playing at LG.

For my money I think see 3 weakspots on the OL that need upgrades this offseason.

You touched on one position when you mentioned Jamaal Brown at RT.

At this stage I don't view Brown as an elite player at RT.

And since Brown is a FA I believe we could find an equal journeyman player that's younger/healthier through FA for less money.

I think we could also find a younger veteran player FA for around the same money like Ryan Harris.

The other spots are C/RG.

But if RG is upgraded then it upgrades both positions b/c I think that Montgomery could move to Center and give us better play from that position for less money then Casey Rabach.

[hail2redskns]

I agree Lichtensteiger showed a lot last year. If we can keep Brown in Free Agency, I think we have to draft C/G Pouncey. He's got the athleticism and flexibility that we need, and he's almost sure to be there at 10. Many with the Steelers called his brother the best rookie they've ever seen, and if we can set a young oline in place for the next 5-10 years we can't pass that opportunity up. :2cents:

[Dan T.]

Good stuff, but

[NattyBo]

Been watching a few games lately and looking at specific players. I've watched the week 17 game vs. the Giants twice and focused on two specific players -- Jamaal Brown and Kory Lichtensteiger -- with a peripheral on Trent Williams. Call me crazy, but Lichtensteiger looked like our best and most efficient lineman in that game. Brown's athletic ability really stands out, particularly his ability in the zone run game to get to the 2nd level and push defenders around. That said, he had 4-5 negative plays in ISO pass-pro when he got bull-rushed and walked into the QB. Trent Williams gave up a couple of eye-popping no-no type plays, including a game-changer.

I watched every play of Lichtensteiger and he had 3 negative plays, only one of which was of a physical variety. Early in the game, he failed to pick up a stunt and allowed a clear path to the QB. Later in the 1st half he got bull-rushed by Cofield and walked into Grossman's comfort zone. And in the 4th quarter he was late picking up a delayed blitz on which a lineman was standing up as an ILB and appeared to be playing a zone. But watching this guy, I really think we have a solid staring interior player, the only question being: does he stay at guard or does Mike Shanahan move him to center? But he appears to be the prototypical interior zone player that Shanny somehow seems to find and groom into solid starters, ala Ben Hamilton. He really is a good athlete for an interior lineman. Shanny said he wants linemen that can run, and Lichtensteiger can clearly do that. A couple of times he got out on screens and the foot-speed for a big guy is evident, nearly moving too fast to allow his back time to set things up. He gets to the 2nd-level and laterally rides linemen out of lanes in the zone-run. He has good feet and balance in pass pro and really uses his help to limit the moves and rush lanes of the lineman he's blocking.

One good indicator of how athletic a lineman is, particularly interior players, is how often they end up on the ground; it's rare that you see Kory on the ground. Two or three times he got in awkward positions that would have resulted in most interior guys losing their footing, but Kory has the athletic ability to not only keep his feet, but recover and regain his balance.

I heard a lot of bad things about this dude and it's really hard to know until you zero in on a guy every play, and while I'm no football coach and it's only one game, I state very confidently that this guy can not only play, but be a solid, long-term starting lineman for this staff and in this scheme. I'm just curious if his position is at guard, or will Shanny ponder moving him to center? Personally, I'd leave him where he's at, because it appears the guy is coming into his own at the left guard position.

Made it easier to read for everyone.

To actually add content, I really enjoy when posters go back and actually watch games to focus on one guy, doubly so when it's a few months after the game and all the emotion is gone and you can just focus on what you're trying to look for.

Hopefully others have other games lying around still and can make similar posts.

[authentic]

I think Lich. should be pushing for a starting job @ center going into the season. I def. agree with you all he certainly improved his play through out the year.

[Hitman21ST]

Good stuff, but

Latin

I'm going to come out and say that either way, that's difficult to read.

Back OT, I'm excited for Lich and the line next year, especially if we keep Brown and move Heyer to G. We would only have two glaring holes in the line, which can easily be addressed in the draft and FA. We'll have a much better line, and due to that, a much better offense.

[Rypien1191]

Nice post. ES would be much improved if there were more of these and less of the other crap on the front page. But yes I also agree with Dan T. about the "hard to read".

[bigricky3469]

I would like to know how our offensive line played in the Detroit game.

[authentic]

I'm going to come out and say that either way, that's difficult to read.

Back OT, I'm excited for Lich and the line next year, especially if we keep Brown and move Heyer to G. We would only have two glaring holes in the line, which can easily be addressed in the draft and FA. We'll have a much better line, and due to that, a much better offense.

Sorry dude, but they need to get rid of Heyer. Please for the love of everything that is good and right, please cut Heyer!!!

[papaSkins27]

I agree, Kory is a decent starter for us at guard and Brown after a shaky start to the season recovering from injury, really improved as the year went on.

I hope we resign both Brown and Will Montgomery who I think filled in great at center when Rabach went down.

My hopes for next years OL:

Trent WIlliams - LT

Kory Lichtensteiger - LG

Samson Satele - C

Davin Joseph - RG

Jammal Brown - RT

Both Satele and Joseph will be young UFA that fit our scheme and shouldn't break the bank, perfect targets.

Montgomery - Center depth

Capers - Guard depth

Late round draft pick - Tackle depth

Cut Heyer / Hicks / Rabach, all are complete garbage, I will celebrate the day Heyer & Rabach are no longer Redskins.

I could live with holding onto Hicks as a depth player but really don't want to see him starting/playing much at all.

Trade Dockery for a late rounder, whatever we can get.

[Hitman21ST]

Sorry dude, but they need to get rid of Heyer. Please for the love of everything that is good and right, please cut Heyer!!!

I'm not advocating keeping him, sorry if I led you to think that. I could see where you misinterpreted that. I'm just saying that, if we do keep him, move him to guard, because he looked like a halfway decent lineman at guard in the Titans (I think) game. He just looks lost in space. He doesn't look as lost on the interior.

[HigSkin]

I agree, Kory is a decent starter for us at guard and Brown after a shaky start to the season recovering from injury, really improved as the year went on.

I hope we resign both Brown and Will Montgomery who I think filled in great at center when Rabach went down.

My hopes for next years OL:

Trent WIlliams - LT

Kory Lichtensteiger - LG

Samson Satele - C

Davin Joseph - RG

Jammal Brown - RT

Both Satele and Joseph will be young UFA that fit our scheme and shouldn't break the bank, perfect targets.

Montgomery - Center depth

Capers - Guard depth

Late round draft pick - Tackle depth

Cut Heyer / Hicks / Rabach, all are complete garbage, I will celebrate the day Heyer & Rabach are no longer Redskins.

I could live with holding onto Hicks as a depth player but really don't want to see him starting/playing much at all.

Trade Dockery for a late rounder, whatever we can get.

I like your thinking but folks keep forgetting about BMW. I think he's a guy you start at one of the OG positions and move Lich to C.

Also, Capers may be an up-and-comer at RT. He'll likely be plugged in as Brown's backup.

Here's a recent article on Capers potential.

http://www.hogshaven.com/2011/2/4/1974941/will-selvish-capers-make-an-impact-in-2011-a-look-into-capers-future

My thoughts:

LT - Trent Williams, Heyer (unless they can find another backup-besides the Shanny's seem to like him)

LG - Davin Joseph, draft

C - Lich, Montgomery

RG - BMW, Hicks (possibly Erik Cook)

RT - Brown, Capers

[Dukes and Skins]

I like your thinking but folks keep forgetting about BMW. I think he's a guy you start at one of the OG positions and move Lich to C.

Also, Capers may be an up-and-comer at RT. He'll likely be plugged in as Brown's backup.

Here's a recent article on Capers potential.

http://www.hogshaven.com/2011/2/4/1974941/will-selvish-capers-make-an-impact-in-2011-a-look-into-capers-future

My thoughts:

LT - Trent Williams, Heyer (unless they can find another backup)

LG - Davin Joseph, draft

C - Lich, Montgomery

RG - BMW, Hicks (possibly Erik Cook)

RT - Brown, Capers

But why move Davin Joseph from his natural position of RG to LG?

[Zhouse]

What about Big Mike Williams? Even before Shanny arrived, many were impressed with Mike's quick feet. I'm assuming he can fit the zone scheme.

Is he not expected to come back to football?

[HigSkin]

But why move Davin Joseph from his natural position of RG to LG?

Fine, then flip-flop them but you get the point.

[Dukes and Skins]

Fine, then flip-flop them but you get the point.

Haha of course I get the point man I just was curious as to why you would put Joseph at LG is all. Personally I would love an OL of this

LT: Trent Williams

LG: Rodney Hudson

C: Korey Lichtensteiger

RG: Davin Joseph

RT: Ryan Harris

[papaSkins27]

Haha of course I get the point man I just was curious as to why you would put Joseph at LG is all. Personally I would love an OL of this

LT: Trent Williams

LG: Rodney Hudson

C: Korey Lichtensteiger

RG: Davin Joseph

RT: Ryan Harris

I'd rather use that 2nd rounder from your Rodney Hudson pick (I'm assuming that's where you have him taken) on NT Phil Taylor or a top 5 CB that falls out of the 1st like (Brandon Harris / Aaron Williams / Ras-I Dowling), hell or even a young RB like Mikel LeShoure or Ryan Williams. Especially with all the YOUNG starting caliber OL talent available in FA this year:

Davin Joseph - G

Justin Blalock - G

Ryan Kalil - C

Samson Satele - C

Ryan Harris - OT

As far as Harris or Brown, they are both the same to me, either one I would approve of as our starter at RT. Brown is more of a short-term solution due to age/injury but will probably cost less then Harris who is a young rising name. If the price is right and the Shanny connection is there I absolutely prefer Harris over Brown due to age but it's a 1a/1b type situation IMO, I hope either one is our RT next year regardless. If by hanging onto Brown we keep some continuity and have extra $$$ to throw at the interior that's fine by me.

---------- Post added February-8th-2011 at 11:57 AM ----------

What about Big Mike Williams? Even before Shanny arrived, many were impressed with Mike's quick feet. I'm assuming he can fit the zone scheme.

Is he not expected to come back to football?

Really guys? BMW is a great story, a physical freak for his size/athleticism, and absolutely a better fit at OG then OT, but the dudes got medical issues and 31 years old!

It's time to move on and build a winner. Our OL needs young proven talent with the potential to get better as a unit, not old names with heart conditions (not trying to be mean).

There's plenty of stud OL available in FA and we should take advantage of that, with the right FA targets this OL can be transformed into a strength of this team going forward.

---------- Post added February-8th-2011 at 11:59 AM ----------

I like your thinking but folks keep forgetting about BMW. I think he's a guy you start at one of the OG positions and move Lich to C.

Also, Capers may be an up-and-comer at RT. He'll likely be plugged in as Brown's backup.

Here's a recent article on Capers potential.

http://www.hogshaven.com/2011/2/4/1974941/will-selvish-capers-make-an-impact-in-2011-a-look-into-capers-future

Capers development is exciting, I hope he continues to progress and I love him as depth anywhere on the line, I'm praying he can finally allow us to send Heyer packing.

[Mahons21]

Isn't the strength of the Giants line there DE's though? I know Canty lines up as a DT sometimes, but if I recall correctly he doesn't line up across from Lich.

You might want to check out how Lich holds up in the GB game, against a guy like Raji, or the Vikings game against Williams.

From what I remember Lichtensteiger certainly wasn't our best offensive linemen.