GibbsFactor Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 I'd be content going into the season with this: Williams/Heyer Lich/ Montgomery/Lich Hicks/BMW Williams/Capers I'm down with upgrading both of our guard spots or at least right guard. If we could land a Joseph, I'd be very happy with that lineup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mahons21 Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Why would Joseph of the up and coming Buccaneers want to come here? Especially if we aren't gonna overpay anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Tris Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 BMW might never play another down of football - he hasn't even been cleared for football activities. It would be unwise to expect him to start at RT, or any other spot on the line, much less play at a high level. Additionally, signing 2 OL in FA is the continuation of an unsustainable method of building the unit/team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostofSparta Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Additionally, signing 2 OL in FA is the continuation of an unsustainable method of building the unit/team. Why? It seemed to work out pretty well from '05-'07 bringing in Randy Thomas and Casey Rabach. They both brought immediate upgrades, and we had a stellar line in 05 (until Randy tore a bicep), a good line in '06 until the injury bug hit most of the team, a pretty good line in '07 once Collins came in, and a red-hot start in '08. Sure, I can see how picking up a lineman over 30 (Logan Mankins) would fit the argument, but if we got say...Kalil from Carolina, who is 26 (I think), he would have plenty of time to gel with the rest of the line we're gonna have to bring in anyway as he hits his prime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Tris Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 I think you made my case for me, citing Randy Thomas and Casey Rabach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enter Apotheosis Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 I've been inclined to defend Lichtensteiger from the mostly unwarranted vitriol he's received since he cracked the starting lineup. While he does make an occasional mistake in pass protection (often against stunts or delayed blitzes and typically mental in nature), he's actually a very solid player all-around and would be very low on the priority list of guys we might want to replace. Additionally, signing 2 OL in FA is the continuation of an unsustainable method of building the unit/team. Agreed. We really can't afford to sign a bunch of starting caliber veteran offensive linemen as many here seem to want to. Signing one would be perfectly fine but at some point we need a little production out of our less heralded draft picks and UDFAs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieselfan44 Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 yeah..center is definitely the weak link...I know its high for a center but I'd love to get Pouncey from FL. We would have to take him at 10 to get him...but right there you have the center for the team for at least a decade. We've already got Williams planted firmly as the left tackle for that long. Moss potentially leaving causes Shanahan and company to consider other options at the 10, bringing WR consideration into the mix... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enter Apotheosis Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Why? It seemed to work out pretty well from '05-'07 bringing in Randy Thomas and Casey Rabach. They both brought immediate upgrades, and we had a stellar line in 05 (until Randy tore a bicep), a good line in '06 until the injury bug hit most of the team, a pretty good line in '07 once Collins came in, and a red-hot start in '08. Sure, I can see how picking up a lineman over 30 (Logan Mankins) would fit the argument, but if we got say...Kalil from Carolina, who is 26 (I think), he would have plenty of time to gel with the rest of the line we're gonna have to bring in anyway as he hits his prime. Signing those kinds of players costs more money which can make it harder to sign the kinds of role players and depth that is vital to a team's long-term success. Sure, it can be done and it can be done successfully if you are careful about it... but there is no margin for error. You cannot have a significant amount of cap tied up in a player who under-performs, winds up not fitting the scheme, or suffers a physical breakdown of any kind. yeah..center is definitely the weak link...I know its high for a center but I'd love to get Pouncey from FL. We would have to take him at 10 to get him...but right there you have the center for the team for at least a decade. We've already got Williams planted firmly as the left tackle for that long. Moss potentially leaving causes Shanahan and company to consider other options at the 10, bringing WR consideration into the mix... For the thousandth time... POUNCEY IS NOT A CENTER. He may have played there in college but he was terrible at it and his future is clearly at guard in the NFL. Anyone who thinks it would be a good idea to draft him higher than 20th overall is either unfamiliar with him, unfamiliar with any notion of draft value, or is clinically insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 yeah..center is definitely the weak link...I know its high for a center but I'd love to get Pouncey from FL. We would have to take him at 10 to get him...but right there you have the center for the team for at least a decade. We've already got Williams planted firmly as the left tackle for that long. Moss potentially leaving causes Shanahan and company to consider other options at the 10, bringing WR consideration into the mix... No. No way. For two reasons: 1) You can't justify drafting a guy of Pouncey's caliber (at G or C) at tenth overall, when you have high-impact DL/OLB on the board. And there will be. He is not his brother. Remember that. 2) As EA says, Pouncey is most likely a G in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostofSparta Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Signing those kinds of players costs more money which can make it harder to sign the kinds of role players and depth that is vital to a team's long-term success. Sure, it can be done and it can be done successfully if you are careful about it... but there is no margin for error. You cannot have a significant amount of cap tied up in a player who under-performs, winds up not fitting the scheme, or suffers a physical breakdown of any kind. Well then we're screwed, since history says our scheme will change next year anyway :doh:. So anybody we draft or bring in will be a bust. Damn. But I'll be honest, if I could have 2 players in FA, they would be 1 lineman (preferably a young interior lineman) and 1 WR (preferably Rice). I'm not advocating a return to the past of bringing in 5-6 high profile FAs to cure our team ('06 with Arch Deluxe, Llyod, and Randle-El anyone?), but you can't just abandon FA altogether. You just have to be smart about it, which I'm hoping our new FO can prove capable of. I wouldn't even necessarily be opposed to 1 big name FA as long as they were young, like Rice (24). But the truth is if Brown doesn't resign with us, then this team will need at least 2 new lineman via draft or FA. Bring in a center or guard (depending on where you want Lich to play), and you'll have to have a RT unless you want Heyer and Capers battling it out for that starting spot. The WR corps is thin and could get thinner if Moss leaves, we need an NT, our DEs are barely adequate, our LBs corps is also thin, we have no true FS, a bunch of unknowns at CB, and oh yeah a QB situation that's in flux. I don't want to bring in anybody who's over 28 in FA, but bringing in young guys who are middle-tier? I'm all for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 CL played well down the stretch, just like Brown when he got healthy. I think we will end up having our bookends for years on the roster now. We really need upgrades at C (Kalil I hope) and RG (Hudson in the second?), but I think our O line is built, with nobody over 26 come next year. It will take a little while for them to really start to gell, but I think it's going to finally be fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Tris Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 just like Brown when he got healthy. I think we will end up having our bookends for years on the roster now. Years? Nobody over 26? The problem with relying on Brown is best case scenerio it delays the need to upgrade for a few years (though I am not as optimisitic). That was the whole problem with trading a pick for an injured 29 year old player - such a small upside. RT is a problem, whether we wait until 2013 when it is a crisis, or we address it now while it is still a mild nuisance, it is a problem. Cerrato would "solve" the RT problem by signing Brown to a 4 year deal, then ignoring RT until his hip completely gives out midway through his contract and we have to throw whatever version of Stephon Heyer we have in 2013 in because we ignored the nuisance. I hope Shanahan does not have the same solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mahons21 Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 If Capers is developing his strength nicely, he could workout as a backup for a year at RT and potential starter in years to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 I hope Shanahan does not have the same solution. I think he will. His O lines never seem to become to depleted in Denver. Basically, Brown is healthy now and played great down the stretch. If we can get 3 or 4 good years out of him, it allows us to build the depth we need. It solves a long standing problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papaSkins27 Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 BMW might never play another down of football - he hasn't even been cleared for football activities. It would be unwise to expect him to start at RT, or any other spot on the line, much less play at a high level. Additionally, signing 2 OL in FA is the continuation of an unsustainable method of building the unit/team. I completely agree with your points on BMW and glad I'm not alone there. I disagree with you on your opinions about FA, I'd agree if we were talking about old guys like Olin Kreutz and Alan Faneca, but we're not. Joseph - 27, Harris - 25, Kalil - 25, Satele - 26, Blalock - 27, all proven starters that will be available in FA. I'm not saying it's reasonable to think we can bring in the top guys at every position to completely rebuild this team but it's very reasonable to think we could bring in a few at the positions we need. ---------- Post added February-8th-2011 at 02:26 PM ---------- Agreed. We really can't afford to sign a bunch of starting caliber veteran offensive linemen as many here seem to want to. Signing one would be perfectly fine but at some point we need a little production out of our less heralded draft picks and UDFAs. Why would signing a couple of medium size contracts (quality interior O-line doesn't cost 100mil) mean we can't also throw top LB money at Woodley or a multi-year deal at Sidney Rice? We have the cap space to do so, we have the voids in talent and former starters leaving or positions starter already unestablished, what's the problem? This isn't directed at you but everyone that keeps advocating a hesitant approach to FA this year (One of the biggest and most talent filled FA years). We are going to have an insane amount of cap space (if there is a new salary cap installed) we are also going to lose more big name contracts that have previously tied up a lot of our money (Haynesworth / Carter / Moss / etc). Allowing us to be able to bring in a regime defining FA class. I agree it's very important we don't overspend on the wrong big name overpriced FA's and where we do spend our $$$ hopefully it's on the right targets, but limiting ourselves in FA rather than use it correctly to build this team would be incredibly foolish. If there's a young player worth paying that fits our scheme and can come in and contribute (Shanny/Scouting Dept.) then we offer them what we deem a fair value for their worth to our team (Bruce Allen). Simple as that, doesn't matter how many people we bring in at what positions as long as it's the right players for the right prices. I hope we have a huge FA class in coordination with a solid draft without trading away future picks, really establishing the core of our football team for the next 5 years. I'm not afraid of FA anymore with Shanahan and Bruce running the FO and other traumatized Redskins fans shouldn't be either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildbill1952 Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 All centers can play guard. Not all guards can play center. Having said that Pouncey is not a center doesn't make it so, since he played center all of last year in the SEC, a very tough conference. Is he as good as his brother Maurkice? No. One year starting at center does not equate to 3 years at the position. But, with the exception of experience, he's an upgrade at center over Rabach. He can play guard AND center. And he's better than anyone the Skins currently field at any of the guard or center positions. And, unlike Rabach, he's not undersized. He's not the best center in the world, but he's the best center in this draft. If you don't get Kalil in FA, then this guy can be an NFL center. He's not going to be there in the second round. If the team that picks him up already has a solid center, you're right. He'll be a guard. But on the Skins he'd be better than any center currently on the roster. But if you don't get him at number 10 and you don't trade down to a more reasonable spot, and if you don't get Kalil in FA, you're going to have a big hole at center for another year. As far as Lichtensteiger - he had an OK game against the Giants and he had some bright spots during the year. But bigger tackles dominate him with a bull rush and as a center, I wouldn't expect him to be any better against the better nose tackles. That, coupled with the mental errors, makes him a reasonable backup, and not a long term solution as a starter unless he has some major improvement. How much he can improve over the next year is unknown. If he's as good next year as he was this year, you still have a major hole on the offensive line. He has to be way better. Eventually, either through FA or the draft, you've got to get improvement on the offensive line. Pouncey gives the Skins that improvement. I would rather spend a number 20 pick on him than a number 10, but if you go with another pick at 10, you're going to do nothing to improve center next year because he's not going to be there for our second round pick. JMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Full Monty Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Gonna agree with papaSkins27 here, IMO, at the very least we have to make signing Ryan Kalil our top o-line free agency priority. Center has been a huge liability and Kalil has been playing at a Pro Bowl level despite being on a horrific team. At only 26, he can lock down the center position close to a decade. We can then leave Montgomery and Lichtensteiger where they are and foster competition at the guard position, but with a Pro Bowl caliber center, we can really shore up the interior of our line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlayAction Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 wildbill1952 writes [Pouncey] He's not going to be there in the second round. If the team that picks him up already has a solid center, you're right. He'll be a guard. But on the Skins he'd be better than any center currently on the roster. But if you don't get him at number 10 and you don't trade down to a more reasonable spot, and if you don't get Kalil in FA, you're going to have a big hole at center for another year. Sure, he may not be there when the Skins pick in the second round. But, the need for a Center doesn't mean you need to significantly reach for a Center in the draft. Especially, since there are equally dire needs all over the team. If I can get a true first round rated OLB at pick 10 or a second round rated Center why would you pick the lower ranked player when both positions are position of need? Keep in mind that the Skins currently have three Centers on the roster: Lichtensteiger, Montgomery and Cook. If Lichtensteiger or Montgomery were to move to Center than there would be a need for Guard. But perhaps the Skins could pick up a new Guard much lower in the draft. Or, if everyone stays in their current positions there are other Centers that would be available in round 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laxpunk2006 Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 I like your thinking but folks keep forgetting about BMW. I think he's a guy you start at one of the OG positions and move Lich to C.Also, Capers may be an up-and-comer at RT. He'll likely be plugged in as Brown's backup. Here's a recent article on Capers potential. http://www.hogshaven.com/2011/2/4/1974941/will-selvish-capers-make-an-impact-in-2011-a-look-into-capers-future I wouldn't personally count on BMW ever playing again, let alone starting for a full season. His return to football was a feel good story but heart conditions are nothing to play with. In addition to that not a single person involved in his recruitment to Washington will be here next season other than Snyder. No more Buges, no Cerratto, no Zorn, and soon no Dockery. Physically he is a horrible fit for the scheme. He may be able to execute it but there is no way a guy that big can run outside stretch plays for 4 quarters and not wear down. Factor in his age and it just doesn't make any sense. That isn't even taking into account that he was never that good. Not saying he's a horrible G, but he was never dominant or even "good." Above average seems about right and that was in a power scheme that better suited his skillset. If he does return to football in 2011 he would likely be better off in a power scheme as a reserve. As far as Capers I'm cheering for him as much as the next guy but I don't have the same optimism that many on this board seem to have. I'm not sure if it's the WVA connection with a lot of fans or just the latest late round man crush or his physical potential. At least you are projecting him as quality depth but I see a lot of posters seeming to think he will be challenging for playing time next year. I'd like to see him to continue to develop but unless he makes huge strides I can't see him being exposed to NFCE DE's/OLB's. Even having a guy with that questionable of technique as the #3 OT would make me nervous. Many if not most will disagree but I'd prefer Heyer. He is limited athletically but at least he won't blow his assignment. I think you made my case for me, citing Randy Thomas and Casey Rabach. While they became weak links they were quality signings at the time and for multiple years. Rabach was given a very team friendly contract as a veteran stop gap. He solidified our OL into a team strength. The issue was never replacing him as his athletic ability was exposed with age and injury. Randy Thomas was our best lineman (including Samuels) during much of his career here, but that is just my opinion. It was the restructuring of his deal that made his contract so difficult and injuries that caught up to him. I'm not suggesting we run out and sign 5 OL in FA every year but it's not a bad position to adress there while contiuing to add depth that can be groomed in the draft. It's not one or the other, it's both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Tris Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 They played decent, for less time than imagined, and for more money than they were worth. The bigger issue is that by signing a veteran to a large FA contract, you are essentially guaranteeing them a starting job, and retarding the growth of any young talent you may have. Put it this way - I'd rather have a season or two of adjustment for a rookie and then a long term solution, than a season or two of veteran play and then a long term issue replacing them - especially considering where we are as a team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laxpunk2006 Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Put it this way - I'd rather have a season or two of adjustment for a rookie and then a long term solution, than a season or two of veteran play and then a long term issue replacing them - especially considering where we are as a team. I couldn't agree more. However there are some players such as Kalil, that I believe are young enough and talented enough that they can still be a long term solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Tris Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Again, I'd rather sign only one player to a "top 5 deal" - whether that is Kalil or Joseph is up to the coaches. What I don't want is to blow all our cap space on a bunch of FAs, even if they are OL players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VRIEL1 Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Been watching a few games lately and looking at specific players. I've watched the week 17 game vs. the Giants twice and focused on two specific players -- Jamaal Brown and Kory Lichtensteiger -- with a peripheral on Trent Williams. Call me crazy, but Lichtensteiger looked like our best and most efficient lineman in that game. Brown's athletic ability really stands out, particularly his ability in the zone run game to get to the 2nd level and push defenders around. That said, he had 4-5 negative plays in ISO pass-pro when he got bull-rushed and walked into the QB. Trent Williams gave up a couple of eye-popping no-no type plays, including a game-changer. I watched every play of Lichtensteiger and he had 3 negative plays, only one of which was of a physical variety. Early in the game, he failed to pick up a stunt and allowed a clear path to the QB. Later in the 1st half he got bull-rushed by Cofield and walked into Grossman's comfort zone. And in the 4th quarter he was late picking up a delayed blitz on which a lineman was standing up as an ILB and appeared to be playing a zone. But watching this guy, I really think we have a solid staring interior player, the only question being: does he stay at guard or does Mike Shanahan move him to center? But he appears to be the prototypical interior zone player that Shanny somehow seems to find and groom into solid starters, ala Ben Hamilton. He really is a good athlete for an interior lineman. Shanny said he wants linemen that can run, and Lichtensteiger can clearly do that. A couple of times he got out on screens and the foot-speed for a big guy is evident, nearly moving too fast to allow his back time to set things up. He gets to the 2nd-level and laterally rides linemen out of lanes in the zone-run. He has good feet and balance in pass pro and really uses his help to limit the moves and rush lanes of the lineman he's blocking. One good indicator of how athletic a lineman is, particularly interior players, is how often they end up on the ground; it's rare that you see Kory on the ground. Two or three times he got in awkward positions that would have resulted in most interior guys losing their footing, but Kory has the athletic ability to not only keep his feet, but recover and regain his balance. I heard a lot of bad things about this dude and it's really hard to know until you zero in on a guy every play, and while I'm no football coach and it's only one game, I state very confidently that this guy can not only play, but be a solid, long-term starting lineman for this staff and in this scheme. I'm just curious if his position is at guard, or will Shanny ponder moving him to center? Personally, I'd leave him where he's at, because it appears the guy is coming into his own at the left guard position. I know this will sound like I'm being a douch but I'll say it anyway..... I think any of us could watch one game and say any specific player is awesome. I'm betting you could do the same for Rahbach. In any event, MS has touted Lickenstien and if I'm not mistaken even drafted him to the Bronco's so there is something MS see's in him and I'm ok with that. Rahbach on the other hand..... I have no idea what the team see's in him. Montgomery did a lot better in relief of Rahbach during the Titans game, the very game Rahbach was getting walked over through out the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enter Apotheosis Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 I know this will sound like I'm being a douch but I'll say it anyway..... I think any of us could watch one game and say any specific player is awesome. I'm betting you could do the same for Rahbach. In any event, MS has touted Lickenstien and if I'm not mistaken even drafted him to the Bronco's so there is something MS see's in him and I'm ok with that. Rahbach on the other hand..... I have no idea what the team see's in him. Montgomery did a lot better in relief of Rahbach during the Titans game, the very game Rahbach was getting walked over through out the game. Let me get this out of the way on behalf of everyone... Rabach, Lichtensteiger, douche. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Let me get this out of the way on behalf of everyone... Rabach, Lichtensteiger, douche. Man, that was a lot of fail in that post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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