Mayock: "J. J. Watt is a beast, premier 3-4 DE in draft"

[Darth Tater]

Don't forget James Harrison (UDFA, cut 3 times)

Doesn't play d-line which is what we were discussing.

You do often go relatively high on your NT (Pittsburgh invested a big pick on the starter but the back up was not drafted) and if you get the opportunity you may go big on a DE. NE doesn't always go big on their backers, however, Pittsburgh, which has a better defense, has 3 starting backers taken in the first two rounds. I would say, though, you still have to think BPA, you don't reach.

[ArmchairRedskin]

It seems that some do, or that they are at least perceived that way by some, because you see many people referring to DE's in a 3-4 as not being as big of "playmakers" as OLBers. How else can you explain that?

I think the answer is self evident. OLB's are the playmakers in a 34 by design. That doesn't mean that the DE's never make any plays, it means that they make a lot less than the OLB's. I mean, it's pretty elementary stuff.

“ It's not designed for you to make the plays. It's designed for the linebackers. That's why it's a 3-4. You've really got to do a good job to get yourself into it, but you're creating for other people. ”

— Richard Seymour, Patriots DE

[Conn]

I think the answer is self evident. OLB's are the playmakers in a 34 by design. That doesn't mean that the DE's never make any plays, it means that they make a lot less than the OLB's. I mean, it's pretty elementary stuff.

There's still a perception out there that the 3 down lineman in the 3-4 are basically just space-eaters who take up blockers. That's not the whole story.

[Enter Apotheosis]

No, the few exceptions you list most definitely do NOT

Since I did not say all just many:

NE (as stated, these guys made up the best defenses 2001-2010)

Bobby Hamilton, never drafted

Ted Washington, former first rounder but was a street pick up

Jarvis Green, 4th rounder

Anthony Pleasant, FA

Rick Lyle, FA

LeKevin Smith, 6th rounder

Mike Wright, UDFA

Rashad Moore, FA

Santonio Thomas, UDFA

Derrick Burgess, mid-rounder by Eagles

Terdell Sands, late pick by KC

Rob Ninkovich (now an OLB), late pick by NO

Myron Pryor, late pick by NE

Titus Adams, street pick up

Eric Moore, late pick by NY

Evidently I misinterpreted the intent of your assertion (may have been a bit of bleed over from SkinsMaster's post about the lack of impact of DEs and his reluctance to spend a top 10 pick on one). I had assumed you were talking about players who did more than primarily serve a roll as a special teamer and/or warm body on the sideline. When you look at the situation in terms of the actual impact these players have had on the field, the first rounders tend to reign supreme.

For the sake of taking a look at it using my original thought process, let's just take a gander at that list of Patriots. I have taken the liberty of crossing off players who were not significant contributors or did not actually play DE or NT in the 3-4 base. That essentially leaves six players with varying degrees of impact who fit your criteria for the Patriots versus four who do not (Wilfork, Seymour, Warren, and Ron Brace) with three of those four players being extremely impactful.

I don't quite feel like spending as much time refreshing on the Steelers players of the last decade, although I know full well that they have done a good job of pulling in DEs from all over the place. The one constant in that equation since 2001 is Casey Hampton, though, and he's essentially an irreplaceable player (one of extremely few within that organization).

All in all, I wouldn't scoff at spending a first or second round pick on a defensive lineman and would tend to encourage it considering the talent pool in this draft (OLB also wouldn't be a bad idea for that #10 pick).

Such a dumb post. Nobody thinks that 3-4 DE's never rush the passer. Get out of here with that nonsense.

Are you new here?

[ArmchairRedskin]

From an article going over a 34 DE's responsiblities

Majority rules in this scheme, which several other teams also have in their personnel package. It's designed to feature the 'backers. They're the stars, while the linemen's primary responsibility is to help the 'backers look their best by keeping offensive linemen occupied. Their contributions can't necessarily be measured by individual statistics. At least, not their individual statistics.

Think of the big boys up front as production assistants. They get about the same amount of recognition, too. Very little.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=smith_michael&id=1946758

[Darth Tater]

Enter Apotheosis,

No, EVERY single one of these were SIGNIFICANT contributors to the defense.

[Enter Apotheosis]

Enter Apotheosis,

No, EVERY single one of these were SIGNIFICANT contributors to the defense.

Terdell Sands was a Patriot during the 2009 season only, was active in two games, appeared on the field in one, did not start, logged one tackle, and was released in mid-October. You and I clearly have very different views of significant.

[Rufus T Firefly]

Enter Apotheosis,

No, EVERY single one of these were SIGNIFICANT contributors to the defense.

LOL. I hope you're kidding.

[Hubbs]

I think this guy is gonna be *clap* DY-NO-MITE!!!!!

This alone makes me want to draft Watt more.

[darrelgreenie]

I think people in this forum in general have a very narrow view of 34 DL.

All 34 teams are not the same and ask different things from their DL.

Some teams run a 3-4 under like Dallas where their NT plays almost like a 3-tech DT while using one of their DE as 2-gappers.

Other teams have both a NT and DE 2 gap.

Many people view 2-gapping or 'space eating' as a waste of talent.

But imo demanding 2 blockers is playmaking.

Some 34 use their DE as pass rushers anyone remember Bruce Smith?

I think the myth that 34 DL aren't or can't be playmakers needs to be put to rest.

[Commander Adama]

I think people in this forum in general have a very narrow view of 34 DL.

All 34 teams are not the same and ask different things from their DL.

Some teams run a 3-4 under like Dallas where their NT plays almost like a 3-tech DT while using one of their DE as 2-gappers.

Other teams have both a NT and DE 2 gap.

Many people view 2-gapping or 'space eating' as a waste of talent.

But imo demanding 2 blockers is playmaking.

Some 34 use their DE as pass rushers anyone remember Bruce Smith?

I think the myth that 34 DL aren't or can't be playmakers needs to be put to rest.

Very true. I think that is where AH got hung up. A NT can often be the unsung hero of a defense. If a NT is always drawing a double team, then that is an awesome NT. Does he always get a sack? No. His job is to clog that lane so the running back cannot run up the middle. Does that mean he cannot get sacks? Definitely not. If he is clogging up his lane and pushing the 2 OL back into the QB, that is awesome! You want to be able to collapse the pocket, making the QB uncomfortable and having to move outside, and that's where the 3-4 DE comes in.

[The Tris]

DL Drafted in the first round by 3-4 teams the past decade:

2010:

Dan Williams (26)

Jared Odrick (28)

2009:

Tyson Jackson (3)

BJ Raji (9)

Ziggy Hood (32)

2008:

Kentwan Balmer (29)

2006:

Haloti Hgata (12)

2005:

Marcus Spears (20)

Luis Castillo (28)

2004:

Vince Wilfork (21)

2003:

Ty Warren (13)

2001:

Richard Seymour (6)

Casey Hampton (13)

Where starting DL for NFL teams running the 3-4 come from (ranked by Football Outsiders Defensive DVOA):

1) Steelers: Hood (1), Hampton (1), Keisel (7) - IR: Smith (4)

2) Packers: Pickett (1), Raji (1), Jenkins (UDFA)

4) Ravens: Redding (3), Gregg (6), Ngata (1)

6) Jets: Ellis (1), Pouha (3), DeVito (UDFA) - IR: Jenkins (2)

7) Chargers: Cesarie (UDFA), Garay (6), Castillo (1)*

10) Dolphins: Langford (3), Soliai (4), Starks (3)

13) 49ers: Sopoaga (4), Franklin (5), Smith (1)

17) Browns: Coleman (5), Rubin (6), Schaefering (UDFA)

19) Patriots: G. Warren (1), Wilfork (1), Love (UDFA) - IR: T. Warren (1)

21) Chiefs: Jackson (1), Edwards (3), Dorsey (1)

25) Cardinals: Campbell (2), Robinson (UDFA), Dockett (3)

26) Redskins: Carriker (1), Bryant (6), Golston (6)

27) Cowboys: Bowen (UDFA), Ratliff (7), Olshansky (1)*

30) Denver: Vickerson (7), Williams (2 - Supplimental), Bannan (5)

3-4 DL with 5+ sacks:

Smith SF 8.5

Jenkins GB 7.0

Raji GB 6.5

Campbell ARI 6.0

Garay SD 5.5

Wright DE 5.5

Ngata BAL 5.5

Dockett ARI 5.0

[Drastik]

I watched a good amount of JJ Watt.... He was getting pushed back into the 2nd level a lot.

I think he's more of a 4-3 DE

If guys in college push him back like that, he won't last in the NFL as a 3-4 DE.

[Going Commando]

Such a dumb post. Nobody thinks that 3-4 DE's never rush the passer. Get out of here with that nonsense.

Awww, you're just saying that because you argue on the dumb**** side that says 3-4 DE aren't playmakers.

---------- Post added February-9th-2011 at 10:32 AM ----------

It seems that some do, or that they are at least perceived that way by some, because you see many people referring to DE's in a 3-4 as not being as big of "playmakers" as OLBers. Or not being as "high impact" a position. How else can you explain that?

Not too mention people say, OVER and OVER, that all a 3-4 DE does is play gap control and occupy space.

Yes that's true... for some 3-4 schemes... but only on running downs. On passing downs they passrush, just like 4-3 defensive linemen do.

[tdigle]

I'm going to wait until the combine to make my final judgment. That being said, based off of what I've seen and read, as of now Watt's only worth a late 1st round pick. If we can get two late 1st rounders or one late 1st rounder and an early 2nd rounder, I'd go for it. If we're stuck with the 10th pick, I'd pass.

[Dukes and Skins]

I'm going to wait until the combine to make my final judgment. That being said, based off of what I've seen and read, as of now Watt's only worth a late 1st round pick. If we can get two late 1st rounders or one late 1st rounder and an early 2nd rounder, I'd go for it. If we're stuck with the 10th pick, I'd pass.

Actually with how things have been lately people are moving him up boards. Right now he's #13 I believe on my big board and IIRC Steve has him #9 but I could be wrong. Now I'm not saying he or I are the end all be all but Watt is slowly moving up boards because teams are seeing him as a 3-4 DE and a 4-3 DE at the same time and its that versatility that will help him in the long run.

[Going Commando]

Doesn't play d-line which is what we were discussing.

You do often go relatively high on your NT (Pittsburgh invested a big pick on the starter but the back up was not drafted) and if you get the opportunity you may go big on a DE. NE doesn't always go big on their backers, however, Pittsburgh, which has a better defense, has 3 starting backers taken in the first two rounds. I would say, though, you still have to think BPA, you don't reach.

Actually nose tackles have far lower draft value on average than 3-4 defensive ends. B.J. Raji was the highest drafted player who plays NT on occasion but I bet he actually logs as many snaps at DE and that's the position he played his rookie season. Haloti Ngata is also primarily an end. The highest drafted pure nose tackle is Casey Hampton at 19. Wilfork was taken at 21 and Dan Williams rounds out the list being taken 26th last season. Those are the only three pure nose tackles selected in the first round by 3-4 defenses all decade.

Meanwhile you have several 3-4 DEs being taken in the first round in that span, some, like Richard Seymour, and Tyson Jackson, in the top 5. Most of the best 3-4 DEs in the league were high first round picks: Shaun Ellis, Trevor Pryce, Ngata, Seymour, Jackson, Glenn Dorsey, Justin Smith, Ty Warren, Marcus Spears, Luis Castillo, and Ziggy Hood.

Some other, less successful, recent first round picks who were selected to either play 3-4 DE, or have ended up playing that position for teams making the switch to a 3-4:

- Jared Odrick

- Kentwan Balmer

- Adam Carriker

- Amobi Okoye

That trend is about to get much more pronounced this year because there are probably about 8 DE types graded in the 1st-2nd round range. The pure nose tackles in this class are, to a man, graded in the 3rd-7th round range: Sione Fua, Ian Williams, Jerrell Powe, and Chris Neild.

3-4 DE is a premier position because it takes guys who are as quick as they are powerful.

[The Full Monty]

On passing downs they passrush, just like 4-3 defensive linemen do.

Bullseye. Richard Seymour made a ton of plays during his prime as a 3-4 DE for the Pats.

[redskins55]

I watched a good amount of JJ Watt.... He was getting pushed back into the 2nd level a lot.

I think he's more of a 4-3 DE

If guys in college push him back like that, he won't last in the NFL as a 3-4 DE.

This is why we'd be reaching at 10 for him. He's a good mid to late round first rounder. But when your talking top 10 in the draft you have to go with talent over need.

---------- Post added February-9th-2011 at 02:00 PM ----------

1) Steelers: Hood (1), Hampton (1), Keisel (7) - IR: Smith (4)

2) Packers: Pickett (1), Raji (1), Jenkins (UDFA)

4) Ravens: Redding (3), Gregg (6), Ngata (1)

6) Jets: Ellis (1), Pouha (3), DeVito (UDFA) - IR: Jenkins (2)

7) Chargers: Cesarie (UDFA), Garay (6), Castillo (1)*

10) Dolphins: Langford (3), Soliai (4), Starks (3)

13) 49ers: Sopoaga (4), Franklin (5), Smith (1)

17) Browns: Coleman (5), Rubin (6), Schaefering (UDFA)

19) Patriots: G. Warren (1), Wilfork (1), Love (UDFA) - IR: T. Warren (1)

21) Chiefs: Jackson (1), Edwards (3), Dorsey (1)

25) Cardinals: Campbell (2), Robinson (UDFA), Dockett (3)

26) Redskins: Carriker (1), Bryant (6), Golston (6)

27) Cowboys: Bowen (UDFA), Ratliff (7), Olshansky (1)*

30) Denver: Vickerson (7), Williams (2 - Supplimental), Bannan (5)

Defense wins Championships! Plain and simple!

[Going Commando]

I watched a good amount of JJ Watt.... He was getting pushed back into the 2nd level a lot.

I think he's more of a 4-3 DE

If guys in college push him back like that, he won't last in the NFL as a 3-4 DE.

That is at odds with what Mike Mayock was suggesting. Watt is a big time passrusher and very powerful player in general. He's got some ridiculous stats for a 300 pounder. He's a premier talent.

[instinct21]

Da'quan Bowers, Robert Quinn, Marcell Dareus, Nick Fairley, Cameron Jordan, Stephen Paea...Marvin Austin? These players have all been labelled by various "draft experts" as one of the best, or even THE best, defensive lineman in the upcoming 2011 NFL draft.

However, they all seem to forget J.J. Watt, the Wisconsin stand out who is the best defensive lineman no one is talking about. More than that, after his astounding combine performance he is now poking his head above the rest as the best defensive lineman in this highly talented draft.

For starters, when you see Watt on game tape he really stands out, and not because of his 6'6" height. He plays with a non-stop motor, uses his long arms and powerful hands well and has a varied array of pass rushing moves, including the spin move.

He gets off the ball surprisingly well for a man of his size and while not an elite perimeter rushing threat and at least threaten there, which keeps linemen off guard when he spins inside, rips inside or bull rushes straight at them.

Watt also has great strength, which allows him to play as an anchor in the run game. He is not great at slipping past blocks, but will learn that in time as he does have great length.

His instincts are great, and he is a high character guy who works hard on improving and staying in great shape. He has long (34") arms which allows him to keep offensive tackles away from him, and at 290 pounds has enough bulk to fill running lanes and go pound for pound with a lot of offensive linemen.

Now that I have run through my scouting report of Watt, I will rise mention to his impressive combine performance. With the exception of Da'quan Bowers, every other top defensive lineman competed, and were all outdone by Watt.

J.J. was the fifth-best bench presser (34 reps) for his position and the ninth-best sprinter (4.84) over 40 yards for defensive linemen. This is very impressive for a 290-lb man, as he should be too heavy to compete with the 270 pound speed rushing defensive ends but also too light to compete with the 310-plus pound defensive tackles in the bench press.

However, the drills that matter the most for a defensive lineman are the vertical jump, broad jump, three-cone drill and the 20-yard shuttle. The first two are testing for lower body explosion, which shows how fast and powerfully they can get off the line, and the last two require agility and the ability to maintain speed while taking corners.

This parallels with accelerating away from beaten offensive linemen and getting around the corner of a defensive tackle. In these drills, Watt placed first in the vertical jump and three-cone drill for defensive linemen, and second in the 20-yard shuttle and the broad jump.

These measurables are out of this world, especially since his only real "failure" was the 40-yard dash. This is easily overlooked though. How many times does a defensive lineman have to sprint for 40 yards in a straight line?

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/623036-2011-nfl-draft-why-jj-watt-is-the-best-defensive-lineman-in-the-draft

---------- Post added April-15th-2011 at 02:04 PM ----------

I've been a big Julio Jones supporter (and still am) but after hearing about us possibly being interested in throwing a long-term deal at Sidney Rice (only way to pry him away from that transitional tag) if we managed to bring in Rice, I am 1000% behind getting JJ Watt in the first. I would ****ing love that pick, what an exciting solid first round pick that would be.

JJ playing across from Carriker would lock down our 3-4 DE positions for years. They could push each other to be better both being mid-west boys and JJ could help Carriker with some new block-shedding techniques which Carriker (IMO) seems to struggle with.

It's a move that I believe would greatly improve our entire defensive unit, starting from the trenches/DL which is a huge need for us. JJ is a play maker, a perfect physical build for 3-4 DE, a character guy, and has a great motor. That's 1st round talent / franchise building material right there.

I also believe we have a bigger hole at RDE then we do at NT/OLB. At least we have a depth/rotational player at NT with Bryant and we can look to FA for a fill-in OLB, we have Carriker plugged in as our starting LDE, but we are letting all of our RDE's walk: Haynesworth adios, Golston doesn't fit 3-4 DE mold, Joe Joseph is more of a DT / (NT if he puts on some pounds), Vonnie Holiday is a washed up fossil, I really like Jeremy Jarmon as our #1 DE rotational guy behind Carriker/(RDEStarter2011) - JJ Watt, but we have no one else.

When teams like the Ravens/Steelers/Patriots are looking at someone you know you should be as well. If we address #1WR in FA without trading away picks (why I don't want VJ) then I really hope we bring JJ to DC as a key building block of our future 3-4 defense.

---------- Post added February-8th-2011 at 12:13 AM ----------

Exactly, someone great will fall to us at both our spots in the 1st and 2nd, we can go in so many different directions and still come away winners from it. I'd be happy with Julio, Watt, Miller/Quin, or trading down, those are all winning picks/moves.

It all depends on what starting positions we manage to fill in FA /who we intend to throw contracts at (if the draft comes first) that will determine who we target in the draft, but it's good to know there's plenty of talent to be had in the 1st and 2nd this year at the positions we need.

\

Dude you are so right. The more I think about it the more J.J. Watt makes sense.

[hitmandm]

Jeez for once D & Skins we have to agree on the same player

I think you'll get the same player to be honest. Heyward = Allen bailey = Watt

You know who Watt reminds me of ??? The Adam Carriker hype when he came out of college. If I remember correctly Adam's hype came during the combine. but I do like the fact that Watt is only 21. Besides at 10 we'll probably have Dareus, Quinn, and even Miller floating around our spot.

I was thinking the same thing regarding Watt and Carriker.

[CommanderDOOM]

IDK, drafting a 3-4 DE in the top 10 to me is like drafting a RT in the top 5.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

IDK, drafting a 3-4 DE in the top 10 to me is like drafting a RT in the top 5.

Richard Seymour is a 3-4 DE that was taken with the #6 pick by the Patriots, I don't think they regret it. Explain this idea where 3-4 DE should only be drafted in the 20's and beyond?

[Going Commando]

Richard Seymour is a 3-4 DE that was taken with the #6 pick by the Patriots, I don't think they regret it. Explain this idea where 3-4 DE should only be drafted in the 20's and beyond?

Another name to add is Tyson Jackson who was taken 3rd overall. He's a stud and Kansas City still loves that pick because they built their entire defense around him. Glenn Dorsey plays 3-4 DE now too and he's another stud who was taken in the top 5.

B.J. Raji was a top ten pick because he wasn't just a gap sound NT. It's because he had value at DE too because he could pass rush.

3-4 DE has a ton of value in the top ten. These guys are the foundation of your entire defense. The NTs are the fat old mashers that can be found in the middle rounds. Good DEs have to be able to run and generate pressure at 300 pounds as well as play stout and that's a rare and valuable skillset.