HP: Michael Moore "Why I'm Posting Bail Money for Julian Assange"

[SnyderShrugged]

Democracy is not the philosophy of suppoorting the right of the majority to oppress the minority. Period.

the philosophy of "transparency" in government is not a call to force public disclosure of every conversation of every government official. period.

transparency is about clarity of rules, clarity of oversight and controls (both internal and external), and clarity of mechanisms of enforcement. The fact that people have such simplistic monochrome misunderstandings what these terms actually mean (democracy and trantransparency both) is what allows douchebags like Putin, Achmenijad, and Chavez to gain traction when they make wildly idiotic assertions that their governments are not any less transparent or democratic than the US because .... "<<grab any one of a billion b.s. analogies here, like for instance:: the electoral college allows someone to win a presidential election while losing the popular vote>>"

Shockingly enough, a call for transparent government is ALSO absolutely not a demand that Harry Reid and/or John Boehner wear saran wrap clothing when enacting legislation.

sorry, still dont see any analogy whatsoever. Good rant though.

[19Skins72]

So you support the end of Don't Ask - Don't Tell, as recommended by Admiral Mike Mullen?

Well played sir. Well played indeed.

[laurent]

What is the sex crime he's charged with exactly? What is he accused of?

I've tried to understand it reading various report but frankly can't make sense of the accusation that seems to revolve around a condom breaking.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6B669H20101207?pageNumber=1

Maybe I'm just a bit too dense to understand what I've read there, but it would seem to me that this whole "rape" charge is a bunch of nonsense.

[Chachie]

Honestly, I want to protect our secrets, and this leak hurts us, but the mere fact that our secrets got stolen does not make Assange a terrorist.

Be honest: If Wikileaks had posted thousands of pages of internal Russian or Chinese or Iranian documents, how many of our angry patriotic posters would think Assange was a terrorist? Zero. None. Nada. What does that tell you?

:applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:

[Chicken Fried]

More americans than have already died in the last 50 years due to the exposed policies of corruption? I think not.

So this is part of your twisted "You need to crack some eggs to make an omelette" view?

---------- Post added December-15th-2010 at 03:31 PM ----------

So you prefer the government to keep it's secrets which lead to the death of our soldiers?? Wasn't it the previous VP that outed a spy?? But MM and Wiki are evil....

I still wonder why it's only US secrets that are being leaked...

Just wondering. What are these secrets the government has that kills our soldiers? And don't give me the "Bush lied, thousands dies" BS.

And so you prefer exposing government secrets, knowing full well it will lead to our enemies being able to kill even more of our men?

All of y'all are reminding me of the crazies in Fight Club.

---------- Post added December-15th-2010 at 03:33 PM ----------

:applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:

You hide behind the word "terrorist." You're basically saying, "Oh, he's not technically a terrorist, so he's OK." You can call him whatever you want, but our troops are in much more danger because of him, and our intelligence gathering has been compromised. We are now less safe as a country.

[Chachie]

So this is part of your twisted "You need to crack some eggs to make an omelette" view?

Yes. We cannot change the corrupt nature of our government and remain in our comfort zone at the same time.

You hide behind the word "terrorist." You're basically saying, "Oh, he's not technically a terrorist, so he's OK." You can call him whatever you want, but our troops are in much more danger because of him, and our intelligence gathering has been compromised. We are now less safe as a country.

I'm not hiding behind anything. You're hiding behind panic-inspired words of elected officials whose nefarious dealings that yield them prestige and profit have been exposed.

[Destino]

:secret:Then yes, he leaked it.

"I'm not a spy. I didn't steal those classified documents. I only carried them from the spy to the next courier."

He didn't leak anything, he published them. That's more on the side of journalism than spying. The act of publishing anything differs greatly from spying. There is a value in having information without people knowing you have it. That's spying.

Exposing government secrets that have been leaked to you by a source isn't new though the scale and method used in this case certainly differs from previous events of this nature.

[Rocky21]

Michael Moore is an unlikeable douche but I do get his point about WikiLeaks and 9/11. The artricle from the LA Times is interesting and I hadn't considered that point previously.

[Chicken Fried]

Yes. We cannot change the corrupt nature of our government and remain in our comfort zone at the same time.

So stepping outside of our "comfort zone" includes being responsible for American soldiers dying including compromised intelligence strategies. Our defense is now weaker. Al Qaeda and the Taliban are using information he published to fight more effectively against our friends and family. Does that not bother you? Why can't we just leak information about government corruption? Why did Assange need to include information about how our units in the field operate and communicate? Why did he have to include specific GPS locations of military markers? Why did he have to include the names of operatives which will lead to their torture? HOW DOES ANY OF THAT INFORMATION "change the corrupt nature of our government? I really look forward to your answer.

I'm not hiding behind anything. You're hiding behind panic-inspired words of elected officials whose nefarious dealings that yield them prestige and profit have been exposed.

Do you know why they're panicked? Partly because their corruption has been exposed. Partly because this is making their job impossible to do successfully. They can no longer ensure the safety of any of our military forces or covert plans because some arrogant douche wants attention and is leaking the confidential information that allows our military to operate. We are not the #1 military in the world because of manpower. We are #1 because we are the smartest. Our information sector is unlike any other. When that is compromised, it cuts to the heart.

[Chachie]

So stepping outside of our "comfort zone" includes being responsible for American soldiers dying including compromised intelligence strategies. Our defense is now weaker. Al Qaeda and the Taliban are using information he published to fight more effectively against our friends and family. Does that not bother you? Why can't we just leak information about government corruption? Why did Assange need to include information about how our units in the field operate and communicate? Why did he have to include specific GPS locations of military markers? Why did he have to include the names of operatives which will lead to their torture? HOW DOES ANY OF THAT INFORMATION "change the corrupt nature of our government? I really look forward to your answer.

We could go on forever about this issue. Honestly, I don't think it's worth it anymore to engage in a message board battle. It's a fruitless pursuit. Nobody ever concedes and neither one of us really knows the full scope of ramifications and/or righteousness of these leaks. What I do know is that Julian Assange is not the criminal here. He's the media outlet. If he were an american media outlet he might have "played ball" with the US government. He didn't because he doesn't have to. He owes us nothing. The criminal here is our soldier. You are ignoring him altogether while making your point. A point that's certainly not without good merit, CF. I don't want to give the impression that it's lost on me. I'm not soulless. I just can't blame Wikileaks for doing what they do. Leaking is exactly what they do. Some turd brought them a ton of leaks and they leaked. Shocker.

Edit- Oh I agree it won't change the nature of our government but I enjoy the fact that they have to look us all in the eye now that we know. They are dealing with you and I the exact same way they are dealing with foreign nationals.

Do you know why they're panicked? Partly because their corruption has been exposed. Partly because this is making their job impossible to do successfully. They can no longer ensure the safety of any of our military forces or covert plans because some arrogant douche wants attention and is leaking the confidential information that allows our military to operate. We are not the #1 military in the world because of manpower. We are #1 because we are the smartest. Our information sector is unlike any other. When that is compromised, it cuts to the heart.

War is Hell.

God, that's an obnoxious cliche and really not fair in this discussion but it's kind of the bottom basement floor of that part of the spectrum. God only knows what atrocities/deceptions our past and present elected officials have given the go to. Your stance seems to be that it's all okay as long as it's wrapped in red, white, and blue. I just can't agree with that.

[joeknows]

I think what assange has done is great. Govt crimes need to be exposed and it is a shame that he was busted by some half wit that doesnt understand what the guy was doing.

[Chicken Fried]

We could go on forever about this issue. Honestly, I don't think it's worth it anymore to engage in a message board battle. It's a fruitless pursuit. Nobody ever concedes and neither one of us really knows the full scope of ramifications and/or righteousness of these leaks. What I do know is that Julian Assange is not the criminal here. He's the media outlet. If he were an american media outlet he might have "played ball" with the US government. He didn't because he doesn't have to. He owes us nothing.

I agree. My mind is not changing, and yours isn't either.

The criminal here is our soldier.

Please tell me you're not implying what I think you're implying. Are you a member of Westboro Baptist?

I just can't blame Wikileaks for doing what they do. Leaking is exactly what they do. Some turd brought them a ton of leaks and they leaked. Shocker.

And Mohamed Atta flew planes into civilian buildings. Flying planes into civilian buildings is exactly what they do. I'm not making a comparison here. I'm showing how stupid your logic is.

Your stance seems to be that it's all okay as long as it's wrapped in red, white, and blue. I just can't agree with that

Our military is corrupt just like our federal government is, but you don't expose secrets that put our servicemen in more danger. Nobody can seem to explain why those secrets had to be released.

[Ellis]

By "the criminal here is our soldier" I assume he means the man who took the documents illegally and sent them to wikileaks.

[Chicken Fried]

By "the criminal here is our soldier" I assume he means the man who took the documents illegally and sent them to wikileaks.

Oh. That makes more sense. Haha.

[SkinsHokieFan]

By "the criminal here is our soldier" I assume he means the man who took the documents illegally and sent them to wikileaks.

I still can't believe that 1 soldier got access to all of those documents across all of those agencies

[Larry]

And Mohamed Atta flew planes into civilian buildings. Flying planes into civilian buildings is exactly what they do. I'm not making a comparison here. I'm showing how stupid your logic is.

Never thought I'd agree with you, but . . .

[Chachie]

I'm not making a comparison here.

You're not? It sure sounds like you are.

[SkinnedAussie]

Sarah Palin claims he's "an anti-American operative with blood on his hands" whom we should pursue "with the same urgency we pursue al Qaeda and Taliban leaders."

Well, if it was left to the US to track Assange down, he'd still be a free man.

Has anyone got absolute proof that it was Assange who was personally given the documents? He just provides the outlet to publish said documents.

If he is such a threat, what about the hundreds who actually do all the editing of these documents. What, you think Assange does all the work himself? :ols:

If what has been released is such dangerous material, why is that only what has already happened been released? Do you think history is going to be suddenly changed by uncovering the lies and deception of the previous world's leaders? The dead will suddenly come back alive? There are Australian troops still fighting the US wars, and why? If Afghanistan and Iraq were such threats, why aren't more US troops deployed there instead of our own? Who knows, if all available US troops are overseas fighting pointless battles, who will the US push around then?

I applaud WikiLeaks and what it represents. If that means I am a supporter of terrorism, then so be it. Arrest me. Lock me up. I bet it won't happen.

---------- Post added December-16th-2010 at 12:41 PM ----------

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6B669H20101207?pageNumber=1

Maybe I'm just a bit too dense to understand what I've read there, but it would seem to me that this whole "rape" charge is a bunch of nonsense.

Originally, he was charged with rape, but it was found that there was not enough evidence to pursue the charges, which were dropped. It was later found the women involved had made up a lot of the evidence anyway. Seeing as though he could no longer be charged with rape, he is now being charged with sexual misconduct. Because he was 'doing' two women at the same time (but obviously at different times), that, apparently, is now an offence in Sweden.

[Chicken Fried]

You're not? It sure sounds like you are.

:doh: I'm not. I could do the same thing with Pol Pot. It doesn't mean Assange wants to "cleanse" a country, but Pol Pot "cleansed" Camobodia. "Cleansing" is exactly what he does. Tax evaders don't pay taxes. Not paying taxes is exactly what they do.

It doesn't make it right, though.

---------- Post added December-15th-2010 at 09:23 PM ----------

Never thought I'd agree with you, but . . .

Haha that made me laugh. Although I'm on the same page more with you than a lot of other posters on here.

[Chachie]

:doh: I'm not. I could do the same thing with Pol Pot. It doesn't mean Assange wants to "cleanse" a country, but Pol Pot "cleansed" Camobodia. "Cleansing" is exactly what he does. Tax evaders don't pay taxes. Not paying taxes is exactly what they do.

It doesn't make it right, though.

Just like the US Govt. Their defense is "this is what we do." See what I did there?

[Chicken Fried]

Just like the US Govt. Their defense is "this is what we do." See what I did there?

Their defense to what? If you mean being corrupt, I agree.

---------- Post added December-15th-2010 at 10:19 PM ----------

Just like the US Govt. Their defense is "this is what we do." See what I did there?

Their defense to what? If you mean being corrupt, I agree.

[SkinnedAussie]

I thought any Governments mantra was 'Do as I say, not what I do!'.

[Thiebear]

To Predicto: Im guessing if he did it to China there would be a billion people thinking he was .. but they don't every DO anything so thats not going to happen.

The United States has a right to protect the leaking of their classified documents even if 98% of them are not really classified.

I got a TS sbi/sci and had noticed almost nothing in the docs i was doing were really above classified/secret. The mismanagement of the classifications is causing these problems.

Discussing our dirty laundry is just embarrassing and the people that made the comments should be held accountable.

Naming people, places and times of operatives is different.. thats a CIA killin right there.

[RLeVan]

I just get the feeling that this whole Wiki-Leaks ordeal should be renamed "Anti-US foreign policy". The reason I say that is that there are now leaks from other countries. It comes off as being agenda based. With the media being so polarizing right now, you're either in or you're out. I have to laugh at Wiki-Leaks a bit because they don't take a stance on anything. I'm still waiting for the other leaks/hacked server documents from other countries. If this could have any merit, it would expose all sides.

[SnyderShrugged]

I just get the feeling that this whole Wiki-Leaks ordeal should be renamed "Anti-US foreign policy". The reason I say that is that there are now leaks from other countries. It comes off as being agenda based. With the media being so polarizing right now, you're either in or you're out. I have to laugh at Wiki-Leaks a bit because they don't take a stance on anything. I'm still waiting for the other leaks/hacked server documents from other countries. If this could have any merit, it would expose all sides.

Maybe that says something about our foreign policy?