The Official Washington Basketball Thread: Wizards, Mystics etc

[StillUnknown]

1 minute ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Why would the Kings give up their young and and athletic center who is on a rookie contract and played really good to start the season?

 

Otto doesn’t have much value at all in this league. Not because he isn’t a good player but because the Wizards are killing his value. Otto don’t even play late in games anymore, yet you asking the Kings to give up their very good and young big? Be realistic.

 

kings might be the only front office on Grunfeld's level. hope and pray

[Going Commando]

2 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Why would the Kings give up their young and and athletic center who is on a rookie contract and played really good to start the season?

 

Otto doesn’t have much value at all in this league. Not because he isn’t a good player but because the Wizards are killing his value. Otto don’t even play late in games anymore, yet you asking the Kings to give up their very good and young big? Be realistic. 

 

Otto is a great deal better player than WCS is.  And his rookie contract ends this summer, when he'll hit RFA.

 

WCS alone is not enough to get me to bite.  That is not even taking 50 cents on the dollar.

[StillUnknown]

 

same ****, different toilet

[PeterMP]

2 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Nah.  Otto is going to garner interest.  He's actually a good player.  Wiggins is not.

 

Otto got that max deal because we matched it.  There will be multiple teams that want him.

Clown move by the ref to T John up for that.  He deserves to get roasted for missing such an obvious foul.

"Come on man!" got a ****ing T.  lol.

 

You went back and edited.  I guess you  might get a player like Stein (because he's not really good), but just to make up salaries, you'd have to take something back bad (which interestingly, the Kings don't have much of).  Though I doubt you'd actually get Stein.  Considering their doing well, it is going to be hard for the Kings to trade their starting 5.

 

People wanted Porter when it looked like he might blossom into a legit 2nd or 3rd star for a team.  That time is past.  He's not comparable to a Korver because he's got no understanding of how to move off the ball, and just going to the corner does not make you a good player in today's NBA.

[Bozo the kKklown]

55 minutes ago, StillUnknown said:

 

kings might be the only front office on Grunfeld's level. hope and pray

People hoping for that aren’t paying attention.

 

They won the Boogie trade. They made some good draft picks. The only mistake they have made since Vlade blew that Sixers trade was drafting Bagley over Doncic. And Bagley may still end up a really good player.

 

 

54 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Otto is a great deal better player than WCS is.  And his rookie contract ends this summer, when he'll hit RFA.

 

WCS alone is not enough to get me to bite.  That is not even taking 50 cents on the dollar.

Otto at 26 million is not a better player than WCS on a rookie deal who won’t get a max deal when restricted free agency comes up.

 

You gotta relax.

 

[Going Commando]

12 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

You went back and edited.  I guess you  might get a player like Stein (because he's not really good), but just to make up salaries, you'd have to take something back bad (which interestingly, the Kings don't have much of).  Though I doubt you'd actually get Stein.  Considering their doing well, it is going to be hard for the Kings to trade their starting 5. 

  

People wanted Porter when it looked like he might blossom into a legit 2nd or 3rd star for a team.  That time is past.  He's not comparable to a Korver because he's got no understanding of how to move off the ball, and just going to the corner does not make you a good player in today's NBA. 

 

I never edited any of those posts.  Otto is a vastly better player than Kyle Korver.  I'm understanding why you're massively undervaluing him now.  You don't know how good he actually is.

[PeterMP]

Just now, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I never edited any of those posts.  Otto is a vastly better player than Kyle Korver.  I'm understanding why you're massively undervaluing him now.  You don't know how good he actually is.

 

Sorry, then I misread it initially.  He's a better player than Korver because he's a better defender, but he doesn't appear to be a guy that's going to blossom into a legit 3 of a big 3, which would require him to move off the ball the way a Korver does.

[Going Commando]

4 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Otto at 26 million is not a better player than WCS on a rookie deal who won’t get a max deal when restricted free agency comes up.

 

You gotta relax. 

 

You're undervaluing Otto.  I'm no fan of most of what gets said on the RealGM wizboard, but for whatever reason, they've always understood the value of Otto better than this board has.  You guys continuously undervalue him.

 

What's a realistic contract for WCS this summer?  15, 16 million per year?  Otto at 26 million is a better value than WCS at 16 million.

 

Otto is a much, much better player than Cauley-Stein.

 

- He's one of the best shooters in the NBA from the floor

- He's a high level defensive player

- He can play both forward spots

- He's absurdly efficient

- He's an exceptional rebounder

- He can create offense for himself without sacrificing efficiency

- He doesn't require you to change anything about your schemes to accommodate him

- He's still just 25 and he's locked up for the next couple of years

 

His past two seasons were a 9 win share and 8 win share year and he had a 7.3 VORP over that span.  That's like three times what WCS put up over the same span.  WCS is the same age as him.  They're not comparable.  We say no to a trade for Otto built around just WCS.

[Bozo the kKklown]

I am not undervaluing Otto. I think a lot of him. The Wizards undervalue him in how he is used which is my point.

 

Smart NBA teams are not going to overpay for someone like Otto when the selling team

doesnt rate hi that high.

[757SeanTaylor21]

Zion is gonna be a monster in the league. Maybe not as fast but a stronger lebron coming out. Decent shooting from mid range and can hit a 3. 

[Bozo the kKklown]

13 minutes ago, 757SeanTaylor21 said:

Decent shooting from mid range and can hit a 3. 

we sure about that?

[PeterMP]

7 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

we sure about that?

 

Yeah, I don't see where you'd get that conclusion from.  He's shooting 2 from 10 from 3.  With only 10 shots, any conclusion is pretty meaningless, but the fact that he's only made 2 isn't good.

 

He might be a good 3 point shooter, or he might not.

[PeterMP]

11 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Why would the Kings give up their young and and athletic center who is on a rookie contract and played really good to start the season?

 

Otto doesn’t have much value at all in this league. Not because he isn’t a good player but because the Wizards are killing his value. Otto don’t even play late in games anymore, yet you asking the Kings to give up their very good and young big? Be realistic.

 

Stein isn't really any different than Gortat.  If offered that trade in the offseason when the Kings could sign a 5 in free agency or take one in the draft, they'd do it in a heart beat.  You'd have to take a bad contract back to make salaries match though.

 

I can't see them doing during the season because while Stein isn't particularly good, he is their best 5 (they seem not want to even play Randolph), and they are playing well.  For them it would have to come with another move that brought back a comparable 5.

[757SeanTaylor21]

2 hours ago, PeterMP said:

 

Yeah, I don't see where you'd get that conclusion from.  He's shooting 2 from 10 from 3.  With only 10 shots, any conclusion is pretty meaningless, but the fact that he's only made 2 isn't good.

 

He might be a good 3 point shooter, or he might not.

 

Wouldnt him making 2 out of 10 show that he can hit a three? I didnt say good. But he atleast has the range.

[PeterMP]

8 minutes ago, 757SeanTaylor21 said:

 

Wouldnt him making 2 out of 10 show that he can hit a three? I didnt say good. But he atleast has the range.

 

Yes, I guess so.  Though, I suspect essentially every healthy 18 old men also has the range.

 

It would be shocking if Williamson didn't have the ability to get the ball to the basket from the college 3 point line. 

 

Heck, I'm 46, never was good enough to play at the NBA level, have a bad shoulder, and not in nearly as good as shape as him, and I have the "range".  So if that's your level of statement, I'm not sure why you'd even mention it related to his future in the NBA.  I have the range and have no future (or past) as an NBA player.

Edited December 1, 2018 by PeterMP

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, PeterMP said:

Stein isn't really any different than Gortat.  If offered that trade in the offseason when the Kings could sign a 5 in free agency or take one in the draft, they'd do it in a heart beat.  You'd have to take a bad contract back to make salaries match though.

 

The Kings actually have some cap space and a ton of expiring money.  We wouldn't have to take back any bad contracts to make the deal work.  Cauley-Stein and Iman Shumpert or Zach Randolph is enough to get the salaries to work.

 

The problem is that's not appealing enough to get the Wizards to bite.  The return we should be looking for is a first round draft pick, and Boston has Sacramento's pick.  The lack of a draft pick makes the Kings so much less appealing to deal with than the teams that kept theirs.  I suppose you could deal future firsts, but the Wizards pretty much need them now if we're rebuilding around Wall.  We don't want a pick that's going to convey in like five years.

[Going Commando]

The other reason we need picks this year is that we need the ammunition to move up in the draft to get Zion Williamson and/or move Ian Mahinmi to create the room for a max deal.

 

That plan I came up with just messing around while drinking last night is actually brilliant.  Pairing John with Zion Williamson and giving ourselves a shot at a third max player is probably the best you can do at this point. 

 

But the massive flaw in the plan was that Dallas is actually pretty good, and if you deal Beal to them you've almost certainly made them a playoff team.  And the problem remains that, no matter who you deal Beal too, you're going to make them better and push them toward a .500 record.  The only way to make sure you get a good pick in exchange for Beal is to wait until the offseason when trading becomes available again.  But then Beal makes us win.  How do you preserve a tank job without shutting Beal down and thus killing his trade value?

 

There is no way to do it.  You have to deal him to someone you think will stay bad enough to remain in the early lottery.  That restricts the market to Chicago, Cleveland, Atlanta, Phoenix and maybe Brooklyn and New York.  I don't really want to deal him in-conference, and Phoenix already has Booker.  And I'd be more than a little worried about Brooklyn or New York going on a run with Brad.  There just aren't any good options.

 

So you deal Beal and hope for the best and you also deal Porter for draft capital that you can package with the other pick to move up for Zion and you hope like hell that you can tank the rest of this season to make sure your own pick is top four.

[Going Commando]

Or I guess the other option would be to cut out the middle man and deal Beal in the offseason (plus whatever else it takes) to whomever gets the top pick in order to get Zion.  But then you won't be getting back expirings, and thus you'll lose the max contract cap space this summer.  You would have to wait another year before being able to lure in big FAs, which isn't ideal.  This is the year to pry away one of the Warriors guys or try and scam Kawhi Leonard into coming.  Or to put in a massive offer sheet full of poison pills on Kristaps, while the Knicks might still be on the fence about him.

[TradeTheBeal!]

2 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

 

That plan I came up with just messing around while drinking last night is actually brilliant.

 

A suitable life mantra.

[Warhead36]

Whoever gets the 1st pick isn't trading it for anything.

[PeterMP]

48 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

The Kings actually have some cap space and a ton of expiring money.  We wouldn't have to take back any bad contracts to make the deal work.  Cauley-Stein and Iman Shumpert or Zach Randolph is enough to get the salaries to work.

 

The problem is that's not appealing enough to get the Wizards to bite.  The return we should be looking for is a first round draft pick, and Boston has Sacramento's pick.  The lack of a draft pick makes the Kings so much less appealing to deal with than the teams that kept theirs.  I suppose you could deal future firsts, but the Wizards pretty much need them now if we're rebuilding around Wall.  We don't want a pick that's going to convey in like five years.

 

The Kings are not going to trade Stein in the middle of this season unless they can get a comparable 5 on a comparable contract from somewhere else.  They are doing well for the first time in years, and while he's not really good, he is easily their best 5 and so is a big part of it.

 

From there, Shumpert is also a big part of what they are doing (he's 5th on the team in minutes), and (as you stated) he's an expiring so doesn't at all interfere with what they want to do longer term.

 

And Porter doesn't really replace the role of Stein or Shumpert.

 

There is no way this year right now, they'd trade Stein alone for Porter, much less Stein and Shumpert.

 

From there, if they have cap space this off season (or last) (or any team), they aren't going take Porter's contract and give you something valuable back because they'd be able to use that same cap space to sign a free agent at (likely) a better value.  In the offseason, the only way you will get something valuable for Porter is if you take back a bad contract.

 

While you are correct that Porter is better than Korver, in terms of a trade he is not more valuable because his excess value as a player is easily offset by his worse contract where he's owed more money for more years.

 

This year, a reasonable expected return for Porter is about what the Cavs got for Korver (an expiring and 2 2nd round picks).

 

(I'll throw in an exception here.  As long as other players are out there that are somewhat comparable to Porter (e.g. Ariza), Porter's trade value is suppressed.  The only way the Wizards get what is clearly a big return (much more than what the Cavs got for Korver) is if the other players, like Ariza, are moved by the trade deadline, and then a really good team suffers a significant injury.  If most of the other comparable players are gone and the Raptors suffer a major injury right around the trade deadline, they might roll the dice and give you a really good return for Porter.

 

And I'll point out, if the Jazz don't turn it around, I wouldn't be shocked to see Korver back on the market.)

Edited December 1, 2018 by PeterMP

[PeterMP]

14 hours ago, StillUnknown said:

 

he dont get it

 

 

I guess talking about the refs is easier than explaining why you were a spectator under the basket

 

 

i love Wall, but he gotta shut the **** up on this one. especially when he's struggling to crack 70% from the line

 

There have been a couple of situations like that called out in this thread this year (and it happens more than it is called out here).  While I know they are struggling, given what division they're in they still have a pretty good chance at making the playoffs.  It isn't like it is late winter or turned into spring, and they are out of it.  And it was early in the game.  Again, mid-way through the 3rd quarter and your down by 20, sure, the effort isn't going to be there.

 

I'm not sure how anybody can see that sort of thing and think he can be a center piece of a contender.

 

(Though, I'm not sure if it is really just effort, or the accumulation of the injuries/age affecting his lateral quickness and ease of getting off the ground, but whether it is just willingness to put in the effort or ability (due to age and injuries) to give the effort, it doesn't matter in terms of putting together a contender.)

[RonArtest15]

You trade otto to get rid of that contract.  Yes, he's a max player in today's NBA, but for what the Wizards need to do as far as blowing things up, he's gotta go.  Just stinks that EG will most likely be the one overseeing this deal.  SMH.

 

WCS would be a fantastic addition.  A young, skilled big.  With Dwight probably never playing another minute for the Wizards this year, might as well get some younger talent on the team at the 5 spot to pair with Bryant. 

[Mooka]

I'd take WCS for Otto in 2 seconds. Bring that **** on. 

 

At this point I'd support almost anything. 

 

Side note, but the highlight videos on Youtube that just show the game in 10mins are now done, replaced with individual player highlights. Sucks, was planning on catching the most of the season that way. Haven't been able to watch all 4 quarters this season much. 

Edited December 1, 2018 by Mooka

[StillUnknown]