SB Nation DC: What If Vinny Cerrato Never Left?

[scruffylookin]

I think there was a thread in here with an article showing that the Washington Redskins have drafted the fewest offensive linemen in the last 10 years than any other team in the NFL. If anyone can find that it might show no matter if it was Vinny or anyone else, offensive line was an afterthought with this organiozation, which is ironic, because that was the staple of us winning our 3 SBs.

You know, I felt that way too but after doing some research I found some unexpected results.

With Vinny involved in the organization, be it as the defacto GM, Snyder lackie or gofer for Gibbs 2.0 whatever (the years 2000, 2002-09) the Redskins have drafted a total of 59 players. 8 were along the Oline. That is a percentage of 13.56 percent of the draft was used to draft Oline.

While this is indeed the lower percentage than the previous Redskins FO's it actually isn't that different.

With Casserly in charge of the draft (90-99) the Redskins selected 81 players. 15 were Oline for a percentage of 18.52. If you "modernize" those numbers (only include the first 7 rounds of the draft) then Casserly drafted 66 players with only 11 olinemen for a 16.67%.

Beathard and Gibbs (81-89) drafted a total of 102 players and 17 Olinemen (16.67%). In the first 7 rounds they drafted 55 players and 8 Olinemen (14.55%).

It seems to me that Vinny just sucked at picking players. While lower, he wasn't significantly lower in terms of percentage of picking players, he just sucked when it came to making the selection.

The 8 players (first 7 rounds) that Beathard selected were Mark May, Russ Grimm, Gary Sayre, Bob Winckler, Curt Singer, Jim Huddleston, Wally Klein, and Ed Simmons. While he hit with May, Grimm and Simmons. The rest were garbage.

Beathard struck gold more often later in the draft or college FA. Jeff Bostic and Joe Jacoby via rookie free agency, Raleigh McEnzie in the 11th round, and Mark Schlereth in the 10th round.

He also of course orchestrated the trade that brought a pro bowl LT in his prime to DC (Jim Lachey).

So I can't fault Vinny or even Casserly before him, for the low number of Oline drafted. But I do fault them for just not being able to find quality players either in the draft or CFA and relying way too much on high priced free agents to fill in. That is what cost us most.

[Redskins Anonymous]

There's an understatement. What's next murf, "What if the Black Plague never went away?" or "How would you feel about mandatory viewings of Betty White porn?"

Even seeing the thread title is like an icepick through the eye.

ROFL

If there is some old school Betty White porn from when she was young; I'd be down. She used to be hot. I did find a picture of her naked from this era (playboy style) with stars over her nipples; I didn't post it because i didn't want to piss people off. Just google young betty white 9 of hearts.

[themurf]

So I can't fault Vinny or even Casserly before him, for the low number of Oline drafted. But I do fault them for just not being able to find quality players either in the draft or CFA and relying way too much on high priced free agents to fill in. That is what cost us most.

Not all draft picks are created equal. Here are those eight offensive linemen the Redskins drafted under Vinny Cerrato:

2008

Tackle Chad Rinehart - 3rd Round, 96th overall

2006

Guard Kili Lefotu - 7th round, 230th overall

2004

Tackle Mark Wilson - 5th round, 151st overall

Tackle Jim Molinaro - 6th round, 180th overall

2003

Guard Derrick Dockery - 3rd pick, 81st overall

2002

Tackle Reggie Coleman - 6th round, 192nd overall

2000

Tackle Chris Samuels - 1st round, 3rd overall

Guard Mookie Moore - 4th round, 129th overall

Just three of them were picked in the first 100 selections of their respective draft - Samuels, Dockery and Rinehart. In related news, Samuels and Dockery were both successful draft picks.

Bottom line: If your plan to add depth to the offensive line is to use a 5th or 7th rounder every other year or so, then you're doing it wrong.

[Larry Brown #43]

You know, I felt that way too but after doing some research I found some unexpected results.

Good info. But remember also that after Samuels in 2000, Vinnie never again drafted an o-lineman before the third round. And he has said that o-linemen can be found later in the draft. So it’s not just a matter of how many o-linemen he drafted, but how early he took them.

But certainly, your research makes a compelling case that he just wasn’t that great at selecting players.

[Oldskool]

Bottom line: If your plan to add depth to the offensive line is to use a 5th or 7th rounder every other year or so, then you're doing it wrong.

Even Shanahan, who is known for finding diamonds in the rough regarding OL, still drafted 4 of his 6 tackles in his 15 years as a HC with a pick before the 100th selection and his guards and centers usually range around the 150th selection.

[TheLongshot]

Vinny was picking players for Spurrier, period. Including bringing in the ex-Gators Spurrier wanted. And replacing Stephen Davis with Trung Canidate was grounds for dismissing Vinny permanently.

Actually, you are backing up the OP on this one. Vinny was doing his job in getting Spurrier the type of players he wanted. People like to bring up Trung Candidate, but it was pretty obvious that Spurrier didn't know what to do with Stephen Davis and a back like Trung Candidate is more what he was looking for.

Was Vinny just twiddling his thumbs during Gibbs 2? His title was VP of football operations. Sure there were times when Danny, then Joe, were making final decisions. But who was feeding them information, scouting reports, handling the actual contract details? How well could Danny and Joe make decisions with the walking disaster we know as "Vinny" in the Front Office?

Actually, his title was Director Of Player Personnel. He became VP after Gibbs left.

And we all know how well Vinny handled things when he was officially given the reins in 2008-2009. From Jason Taylor to practically standing pat on an old O-line (compare Vinny's moves to Shanahallen's) to the Albert Haynesworth contract.

Thank God that Vinny's gone.

Again, it will be interesting to see what the final grade on that 2008 draft is. Gibbs left with an aging team that needed an infusion of youth and Vinny worked hard to do that. Problem is, when you've been short for so long on draft picks, you are going to fall short in some areas.

[pjfootballer]

Good research. Glad to see guys on top of this stuff. Thanks. It's hard for me to do that kind of research here at work.

[scruffylookin]

Not all draft picks are created equal. Here are those eight offensive linemen the Redskins drafted under Vinny Cerrato:

Just three of them were picked in the first 100 selections of their respective draft - Samuels, Dockery and Rinehart. In related news, Samuels and Dockery were both successful draft picks.

Bottom line: If your plan to add depth to the offensive line is to use a 5th or 7th rounder every other year or so, then you're doing it wrong.

I'm in agreement with you and I am by no means defending Vinny.

It just struck me that I went back to look at the drafts prior to 2000 and assumed the numbers (particularly for Beathard/Gibbs) would be dramatically different and they were not.

Here is a list of Olinemen selected by Beathard/Gibbs from 1981-1989 that were selected in the first 100.

Mark May (20th 1981)

Russ Grimm (69th 1981)

Wally Klein (48th 1987)

That's it. Two starters and a converted D lineman project from Notre Dame.

They did in fact overwhelmingly add depth (and starters) by making great selections later in the draft or in CFA with a couple of trades (RC Thielemann/Jim Lachey) sprinkled in.

But please do not mistake this as me disagreeing with you in the least. The Redskins are indeed much better off now than they have been in a long long time.

As a side note, Casserly seemed to follow the path we all in theory would want (at least 1 oline pick in the first 100) every year and yet he failed because the players were not very good for the most part. Here is Casserly's history in DC.

Moe Elewonibi (76th 1990)

Paul Siever (74th 1992)

Tre Johnson (31st 1994)

Joe Patton (97th 1994)

Cory Raymer (37th 1995)

Andre Johnson (30th 1996)

Jon Jansen (37th 1999)

So that's 7 top 100 players drafted on the Oline in 10 seasons yet the Redskins Oline still left alot to be desired during this decade.

[Oldfan]

Bottom line: If your plan to add depth to the offensive line is to use a 5th or 7th rounder every other year or so, then you're doing it wrong.

That's obvious, but since Joe Gibbs was in charge from 2004 - 2007, it's hardly accurate to blame Vinny for not maintaining the O-line in those years.

The O-line was the strongest unit on the team when Gibbs came back in 2004. Joe said so.

The draft picks Joe dealt away for vets (2004 - 2006) were mostly in the high-value 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounds. So, obviously, the roster couldn't be maintained through the draft, and our former strength was neglected until it became the weakest unit.

[Larry Brown #43]

That's obvious, but since Joe Gibbs was in charge from 2004 - 2007, it's hardly accurate to blame Vinny for not maintaining the O-line in those years.

You know what would be really interesting? To find out exactly who was responsible for doing what during that period. Yes, officially Gibbs was in charge, and he was the first to say “the buck stops with me.” But I have a hard time believing that Gibbs was sitting around scouring college film of guys like Kareem Moore. I don't believe that's what he came back for.

Vinnie was promoted essentially to the GM role after Gibbs retired, presumably as a reward for the job he did over the previous seasons. So he must have had a lot of responsibility during Gibbs II.

Again, Gibbs was officially “in charge,” but in terms of college scouting and player acquisition, it would be very interesting to learn how those things were handled behind closed doors. I don’t think any of us really knows for sure.

[Oldfan]

Again, Gibbs was officially “in charge,” but in terms of college scouting and player acquisition, it would be very interesting to learn how those things were handled behind closed doors. I don’t think any of us really knows for sure.

Does it matter who was in charge of scouting? Someone was in charge of the roster-depleting policy of trading away draft picks. And, any Redskins fan who recalls the Gibbs-Beathard power struggle that caused Beathard to leave is not going to believe that Joe was persuaded to come back to play second-fiddle to Vincent Cerrato, Jr.

[bikie]

That's obvious, but since Joe Gibbs was in charge from 2004 - 2007, it's hardly accurate to blame Vinny for not maintaining the O-line in those years.

while I agree that gibbs did not leave a line full of depth or reliability (with the age and injuries mounting up), that does not excuse cerrato from neglecting it for another 2 years... if you inherited a home with a leaky roof, and in two years you do not fix it, you are as guilty as the original owner... we had plenty of draft picks and opportunities to upgrade our line but cerrato gambled on the oldest line in the league holding up and his two pair didn't hold up to the flush draw on the board...

[Larry Brown #43]

Does it matter who was in charge of scouting? Someone was in charge of the roster-depleting policy of trading away draft picks. And, any Redskins fan who recalls the Gibbs-Beathard power struggle that caused Beathard to leave is not going to believe that Joe was persuaded to come back to play second-fiddle to Vincent Cerrato, Jr.

Gibbs clearly didn't and wouldn't play second fiddle to Vinnie, but I don't know that Gibbs was familiar enough with current (at the time) college and NFL players to offer much of a voice on player selection. My guess is he was more active in selecting offensive skill position players, but it's just a guess.

It's entirely possible that Gibbs instructed Vinnie to trade draft picks away for veterans, but it's also possible that Gibbs, Snyder and Vinnie all thought it was a great idea to do so, and thus Gibbs didn't run Vinnie out the door. I have no idea. But I do know that Vinnie was promoted right after Gibbs left, so it's not a reach to think that Vinnie had a lot of responsibility for the direction of the franchise during Gibbs II. Remember, we heard a lot about "continuity" after Gibbs retired.

Keep in mind that Gibbs was out of the league for a dozen years before he came back, so he needed someone who had been involved with the league (Vinnie) to help him get his bearings.

Regardless, in the two seasons Vinnie was in charge after Gibbs retired, we had a total of 16 draft picks. Only one of those picks was an offensive lineman (Rinehart), so it's safe to say that attempting to rebuild the offensive line those two years was not a top concern for Vinnie.

[Oldfan]

while I agree that gibbs did not leave a line full of depth or reliability (with the age and injuries mounting up), that does not excuse cerrato from neglecting it for another 2 years... if you inherited a home with a leaky roof, and in two years you do not fix it, you are as guilty as the original owner... we had plenty of draft picks and opportunities to upgrade our line but cerrato gambled on the oldest line in the league holding up and his two pair didn't hold up to the flush draw on the board...

The draft isn't Home Depot. You can't just walk in and fill a need. So, in order to make your argument stick, you would have to show that Vinny had the draft picks available and passed up chances to shore up the O-line.

He passed up Oher for Orakpo. I would have done the same thing. Remember, at that point, we didn't know that we'd lose Thomas and Samuels to career-ending injuries.

Even if I'd had a crystal ball, and knew about those injuries, I would have still taken Rak. I think long-term he will be a far more valuable player than Oher.

[Oldfan]

...It's entirely possible that Gibbs instructed Vinnie to trade draft picks away for veterans, but it's also possible that Gibbs, Snyder and Vinnie all thought it was a great idea to do so, and thus Gibbs didn't run Vinnie out the door.

I can imagine Dan and Vinny having orgasms at the thought of building a winner right away by trading draft picks for vets. But it was Joe's show and when it comes to placing blame, we shouldn't be looking at the number three man in the chain of command.

Regardless, in the two seasons Vinnie was in charge after Gibbs retired, we had a total of 16 draft picks. Only one of those picks was an offensive lineman (Rinehart), so it's safe to say that attempting to rebuild the offensive line those two years was not a top concern for Vinnie.

See my response to bikie on that point.

[pjfootballer]

Under the regime in the 80's, it seemed like they valued the lines more than the past regime the last 10 years. Even when Jacoby got old (Lachay), or one of the Hogs retired, there always seemed to be someone to take the place of the player (May, McKenzie, Theilmann) that left. Even though the number of linemen picked in both eras is very close, we seemed to find good linemen despite not having anything more than Plan B free agency in the 80s.

[Oldfan]

Under the regime in the 80's, it seemed like they valued the lines more than the past regime the last 10 years. Even when Jacoby got old (Lachay), or one of the Hogs retired, there always seemed to be someone to take the place of the player (May, McKenzie, Theilmann) that left. Even though the number of linemen picked in both eras is very close, we seemed to find good linemen despite not having anything more than Plan B free agency in the 80s.

In 1981, Bobby Beathard had a horseshoe up his ass. He brought in seven rookie starters including Jacoby, May and Grimm. One year like that sets up an elite roster for a long time.

[TheLongshot]

Under the regime in the 80's, it seemed like they valued the lines more than the past regime the last 10 years. Even when Jacoby got old (Lachay), or one of the Hogs retired, there always seemed to be someone to take the place of the player (May, McKenzie, Theilmann) that left. Even though the number of linemen picked in both eras is very close, we seemed to find good linemen despite not having anything more than Plan B free agency in the 80s.

It was also a different era where a player could get a mysterious injury and end up on IR for the season. Also, there was no FA, so a team could keep a player as long as they wanted to. Also, I think it is also because Buges was a hell of an OL coach.

I never really understood why the Raiders traded away Jim Lachay, tho.

[Larry Brown #43]

But it was Joe's show and when it comes to placing blame, we shouldn't be looking at the number three man in the chain of command.

Setting aside the Gibbs II years... in the seasons in which Vinnie was instrumental in assembling the team's roster (2000, 2002, 2003, 2008, and 2009), the Redskins had a combined 32-48 record, zero playoff appearances, and no season with a record better than .500.

If Vinnie were smart, he'd try to take as much credit as he possibly could for the moderate success the team enjoyed from 2004-2007. If he abdicates responsibility for 2004-2007, his track record would give Matt Millen's record a run for his money.

[LeftCoast Skinz FAN]

What a fantastic article. One of the most entertaining articles I've read from you Homer. I loved it. All that you said about Vinny makes since. I'm sure the majority of what you wrote would have happened too. Especially with Parker and Johnson. They would both be here and both with fat contracts. And not only would they be here, I'm sure they both would not like what ever was happening with the offense and both want at the end of the season.

But seriously, great article and thank god there is no more Vinny.

[pjfootballer]

In 1981, Bobby Beathard had a horseshoe up his ass. He brought in seven rookie starters including Jacoby, May and Grimm. One year like that sets up an elite roster for a long time.

True, but I thought they always did a good job of recognizing when a player was on his last legs and brought in replacements.

It was also a different era where a player could get a mysterious injury and end up on IR for the season. Also, there was no FA, so a team could keep a player as long as they wanted to. Also, I think it is also because Buges was a hell of an OL coach.

I never really understood why the Raiders traded away Jim Lachay, tho.

True also, but I don't remember the Skins putting any offensive linemen on IR and they became all-pros. I remember Rypien being on the sidelines in Zubaz pants in SB 22.

My guess is the money. Remember, he only played 1 game with the Raiders after being traded from SD. The Raiders needed a "Mad Bomber" type QB and we had one. Here are some tidbits I found:

The Chargers announced Thursday that they had decided to grant Lachey his wish to be traded. At least they said they'd try. Lachey, 25, played in the Pro Bowl last year and is the best offensive lineman on the team's roster.

He recently told friends he wanted to be traded to a team closer to his home of Columbus, Ohio. And he told Chicago Bear quarterback Mike Tomczak, a former college teammate at Ohio State, that he wanted to go to a team that figures to be a playoff contender in the near future.

Now Steinberg, who has studiously avoided public statements on the Lachey matter, is saying Lachey will go wherever the Chargers send him.

"The reason I've been reticent on public comments is to give the Chargers the opportunity to do something for their ballclub," Steinberg said.

Steve Ortmayer, the Chargers' director of football operations, wouldn't specify what teams are actively bidding for Lachey. But Ortmayer, who said Thursday that the number of teams was seven or eight, said Friday that it had been cut "at least in half" since then.

Teams believed to have made the strongest overtures for Lachey are the Raiders, the Bears, the Colts, the 49ers and the Redskins.

[KevinthePRF]

Just breezing through this thread, it's still amazing there are those outside of his family that still stick up for the guy as a competent football mind. After he disemboweled the 49ers in the late 90s, the only person in the NFL that would dare give him a job is Dan Snyder. The fact he has zero interest from the NFL now, or in 2001 for that matter should be a clue.

Debating over whether he did good with this pick and that, or arguing over whether he was in charge at "fill in the blank" period of time or just sitting in the corner reading a book is irrelevant. The guy had no clear franchise vision, no leadership qualities. He and Snyder were perfect partners so they could feed off of each other's ADD philosophy of quick fixing the franchise without any thorough research.

He might of been a good scout early in his career in the NFL but has proved himself time and again as an executive failure. And it's amazing to me some still come up with excuses for that long term failure. It's fantastic he is out of the league.

Because he ultimately has to work for Snyder whether Allen will do a great job remains to be seen, I do know there is no way he can do worse.

[HailGreen28]

Actually, you are backing up the OP on this one. Vinny was doing his job in getting Spurrier the type of players he wanted. People like to bring up Trung Candidate, but it was pretty obvious that Spurrier didn't know what to do with Stephen Davis and a back like Trung Candidate is more what he was looking for.

Not really. Everybody seems to think Spurrier wanted ex-Gators, but the most prominent quote from Spurrier on that was that they (one of the QBs to be specific) were "cheap and available". It was still a major failure on Vinny's part building that roster for spurrier.

Actually, his title was Director Of Player Personnel. He became VP after Gibbs left.

His title varied depending on what article you read. "VP of football operations Vinny Cerrato and Hall of Fame head coach Joe Gibbs" Still, he was the guy under Gibbs, who was supposed to give Joe good info. And we don't know what Vinny' role was in player acquisition other than some Gibbs quotes "Vinny worked closely with me on all personnel matters" and (wish I could find that quote) Gibbs praising Vinny for "being good at finding guys" when they signed somebody like Kendall or Duckett. Given Vinny's track record during the Spurrier and Zorn years, when there was practically no one other than Vinny in the Front Office, I wonder how much better Gibbs II would have been without Vinny.

Again, it will be interesting to see what the final grade on that 2008 draft is. Gibbs left with an aging team that needed an infusion of youth and Vinny worked hard to do that. Problem is, when you've been short for so long on draft picks, you are going to fall short in some areas.

Gibbs left Vinny a team that made the playoffs and a full slate of draft picks to use in 2008. And from 2008 to now, there's no indication Vinny worked hard at all, other than to say "BPA is that TE Davis! Let's get him, we need a TE right??":silly:

This would be a fitting epitaph on the tombstone of Vinny's football career.

[polywog999]

As long as fans and the like, continue to invoke with ruinous supplication, his unholy name... he shall forever walk amongst the damned of Extremeskins.

Burn your Sage and bless your candles, oh tormented souls! Call to the four quarters and BIND the abominable scourge!

[alwaysaskin]

If Vinny was still here, I would be more into the upcoming College season. Why? because knowing that Vinny was here, with Gray and Clausen would mean that the season would have been over in September. Vinny was about as good of a GM as Matt Millen. He ignored the O-Line, there is no way that Stephon Heyer should ever have been the starter for an NFL team, yet under Vinny he was Jansen's replacement, what about that doesn't scream completely wrong to you? I hope that turd never gets another NFL job again