SB Nation DC: What If Vinny Cerrato Never Left?

[Darth Tater]

The problem is that Vinny would only still be here if we'd won at least two of those close losses in the middle and had a solid finish. Meaning a whole host of things would actually have been different at this point as it would mean that many of our weaknesses that were "obvious" after last season would NOT be "obvious" until after the 2010 season. At this point, I'd bet the greater portion of us would be excited about the coming season though some might be concerned with the firing of Zorn.

[TheLongshot]

I asked if Cerrato did a good job of providing offensive line depth during his decade with the Redskins and was given four examples over a 10-year span. Considering the team has brought in more offensive linemen than that in the short time since he's been gone (A. Hicks, J. Brown, T. Williams, S. Capers, E. Cook), I'd say he failed.

You are talking about depth, but three of those guys are projected to be starters, so that really isn't a fair comparison. Both Capers and Cook are very borderline to make the roster, much less be contributors.

Also, you aren't limiting the current administration as much as you were limiting Vinny. You are looking just at the draft, nevermind that guys like Thomas and Rabach were FAs.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I think we will be able to answer that question in 2012 or 2013.

Just sayin......

[B&G808]

You have more self control than I do Murf! I would have said something, or worse knocked him out on the spot!

[Dukes and Skins]

Awesome article Murf I really just got some bad nightmares and images in my mind thinking about what the team would be like if he was still here. Now with Shanny and Allen it feels like the team is being finally run the right way

[Larry Brown #43]

Good post, but I disagree with this part:

People here seem to forget that it was Vinny who:

- Drafted Chris Samuels

- Drafted Derrick Dockery

- Signed/traded for Randy Thomas

- Signed Casey Rabach

Paired with a still-healthy Jon Jansen, those four guys made up for a rather solid and productive O-Line...and it was Vinny who was directly responsible for 3 of those guys and at the very least part of the team who was responsible for the fourth guy.

I think Vinnie did just enough to ensure that we had a reasonably competitive o-line when the entire line was healthy, but without anything worthwhile in reserve. Particularly over the last couple years when it became clear that Samuels and Thomas wouldn't hold up, there appeared to be no backup plan and certainly no heirs on the roster to those spots. Levi Jones was a desperation move.

[Ryman of the North]

We didnt draft depth on Oline because for a long time this team didnt draft anyone in later rounds, we traded those picks. but Ceratto did a decent job in the draft with what we had, and he never had to draft a LT after drafting Samuels. sorry but this teams woes werent just all on Vinny, Danny and the majority of the coaches we had here deserve some blame too.

[themurf]

i think vinnie did just enough to ensure that we had a reasonably competitive o-line when the entire line was healthy, but without anything worthwhile in reserve. particularly over the last couple years when it became clear that samuels and thomas wouldn't hold up, there appeared to be no backup plan and certainly no heirs on the roster to those spots. Levi jones was a desperation move.

+1

[TheLongshot]

I think Vinnie did just enough to ensure that we had a reasonably competitive o-line when the entire line was healthy, but without anything worthwhile in reserve. Particularly over the last couple years when it became clear that Samuels and Thomas wouldn't hold up, there appeared to be no backup plan and certainly no heirs on the roster to those spots. Levi Jones was a desperation move.

There was a backup plan for Thomas: Rinehart. Unfortunately, he also got hurt. When you have to go to your 4th or 5th string guy to start, you are going to struggle.

As for Samuels, I call BS on that one. His injury last year was hardly predictable. Even when he does get hurt, he rarely missed time. The fact is, when a guy like that goes down for a period of time, it is a very tall order to replace him. You don't have pro-bowlers waiting on the bench to fill in on most teams.

One thing that I do think hurt us in the long term was Gibbs' tendency to want veteran reserves at most positions. He really wasn't much for keeping a young guy around when there was a 30+ year old veteran who could help you right now. The O-Line started getting a lot younger once Zorn took over, which certainly didn't help his prospects. But, we will see if that experience those guys got helps the team in the long-term.

[Larry Brown #43]

There was a backup plan for Thomas: Rinehart. Unfortunately, he also got hurt. When you have to go to your 4th or 5th string guy to start, you are going to struggle.

Chad Rinehart is worse than the people who replaced him. He's not a "plan."

As for Samuels, I call BS on that one. His injury last year was hardly predictable. Even when he does get hurt, he rarely missed time. The fact is, when a guy like that goes down for a period of time, it is a very tall order to replace him. You don't have pro-bowlers waiting on the bench to fill in on most teams.

In 2008 alone, he had a knee injury that forced him to miss action AND a triceps tear that ended his season. If you go into 2009 counting on him to last the whole season, particularly at his age, it's a mistake. The fact that his actual final injury had no connection to his two 2008 injuries is beside the point.

Obviously I wouldn't expect a Pro Bowler to be sitting on the bench behind Samuels, but you'd hope there'd be some kid with a pulse behind him. They HAD to get Levi Jones because there wasn't one.

[TheLongshot]

Chad Rinehart is worse than the people who replaced him. He's not a "plan."

As a young player and a guy switching positions, I expect him to be a downgrade over Thomas, who has been playing for years at guard. That being said, he was really starting to pick up his game before he got hurt.

In 2008 alone, he had a knee injury that forced him to miss action AND a triceps tear that ended his season. If you go into 2009 counting on him to last the whole season, particularly at his age, it's a mistake. The fact that his actual final injury had no connection to his two 2008 injuries is beside the point.

The games he missed in 2008 were the first games he missed in 5 years. Up until that point, he had missed 4 games in his career. To suddenly say that he became brittle is a bit paranoid, particularly since he showed no signs of slowing down in the games he played last year. Had he not had the injury he did, it is likely that he'd still be our starting LT this year and that we might have gone a different direction with our 1st round pick.

Obviously I wouldn't expect a Pro Bowler to be sitting on the bench behind Samuels, but you'd hope there'd be some kid with a pulse behind him. They HAD to get Levi Jones because there wasn't one.

There is a reason why LTs often go in the top of the draft. They have the rare talent to handle the best pass rushers in the league. Just about anyone you put in there to replace Samuels was going to be a big downgrade.

[Oldskool]

If Vincenzo would have not been fired, this team would have sunk to the level of the Lions, Rams, Raiders and Browns in no time. No coach worth his salt would want to coach here with that FO structure in place.

[Larry Brown #43]

The games he missed in 2008 were the first games he missed in 5 years. Up until that point, he had missed 4 games in his career. To suddenly say that he became brittle is a bit paranoid, particularly since he showed no signs of slowing down in the games he played last year. Had he not had the injury he did, it is likely that he'd still be our starting LT this year and that we might have gone a different direction with our 1st round pick.

There was a lot of concern on this board heading into 2009 about the health of Samuels and Thomas as I recall, but I guess that concern wasn't shared by Vinnie. And I don't think it's accurate to say he wasn't slowing down. His knee nagged him all year in 2008 until he finally had to sit down. And then the triceps gave out on him.

[Darth Tater]

Chad Rinehart is worse than the people who replaced him. He's not a "plan."

You are confusing the plan with its execution. Rinehart was quite obviously the plan. That he was not the right resource to execute the staffing plan is NOT indicative of failure to plan but indicative of bad execution of the plan. Planning is easy (though necessary) but execution is hard. A solid, even a great plan, can be derailed by bad execution but great execution can ALWAYS overcome a mediocre plan and with luck, even a horrible plan.

[honejc]

i wish he was still here

at least we would have peppers, dansby, marshall, vjax, and rolle

......

[Oldskool]

i wish he was still here

at least we would have peppers, dansby, marshall, vjax, and rolle

......

You need to take this act out on the road.

[TheLongshot]

There was a lot of concern on this board heading into 2009 about the health of Samuels and Thomas as I recall, but I guess that concern wasn't shared by Vinnie. And I don't think it's accurate to say he wasn't slowing down. His knee nagged him all year in 2008 until he finally had to sit down. And then the triceps gave out on him.

You'd be wrong:

http://www.hogshaven.com/2009/10/27/1103521/cerrato-continues-defending

Question: You had to think there was no way you were going to get 16 games out of Chris Samuels and Randy Thomas considering they had double surgeries in the offseason?

Vinny Cerrato: With Randy we anticipated, you know, not going 16 games. So we anticipated that part.

Most of the circumstantial evidence seemed to back that up, considering that Rinehart was getting pushed very hard to play RG during the offseason. I assumed the plan was to get as much as they could out of Randy Thomas to buy time for Rinehart to get ready.

[Conn]

i wish he was still here

at least we would have peppers, dansby, marshall, vjax, and rolle

......

Please tell me you're joking? Please.

[Larry Brown #43]

You'd be wrong:

http://www.hogshaven.com/2009/10/27/1103521/cerrato-continues-defending

Most of the circumstantial evidence seemed to back that up, considering that Rinehart was getting pushed very hard to play RG during the offseason. I assumed the plan was to get as much as they could out of Randy Thomas to buy time for Rinehart to get ready.

I don't think this helps Vinnie's case at all. He acknowledges that he expected Samuels to play all 16 games, at 32 years of age and coming off a season in which his knee nagged him all year and eventually forced him to miss a game, followed by his triceps giving out, ending his season. He didn't anticipate any problems for Samuels in 2009. I don't think Samuels himself was that confident in his own health.

And if he anticipated Thomas not holding up, that should have made RG more of a "need" area for '09, rather than relying on what was essentially an unheralded rookie as the primary backup plan. When you KNOW going into the season that your starting RG likely won't make it through the season, having a quality backup at that spot is not a luxury.

But the Samuels thing probably frustrates me most. People around here were holding their breath about Samuels heading into '09. Week after week in '08 we were hearing about how gimpy Samuels knee was, and how he was trying to find creative ways to deal with the pain, until he finally had to shut it down. And this was all before his triceps surgery.

Samuels is a warrior, and I respect the heck out of him, but it was foolish to expect as much as we did out of him in '09.

But all of the issues with the o-line are miniscule in comparison to the bigger picture here, which is that the Snyder/Cerrato front office had become such a punchline around the league that we really had no chance of landing a decent coach and coaching staff without a fundamental regime change.

Regardless of your feelings about Allen and Shanahan specifically, I think you'd have to at least acknowledge that.

[TheLongshot]

And if he anticipated Thomas not holding up, that should have made RG more of a "need" area for '09, rather than relying on what was essentially an unheralded rookie as the primary backup plan. When you KNOW going into the season that your starting RG likely won't make it through the season, having a quality backup at that spot is not a luxury.

I guess then that you are really nervous about our LT situation, since we are going to be starting a rookie who only started at LT in college for one year. His backups right now are Heyer and Brown, who didn't even play last year because of injury.

But the Samuels thing probably frustrates me most. People around here were holding their breath about Samuels heading into '09. Week after week in '08 we were hearing about how gimpy Samuels knee was, and how he was trying to find creative ways to deal with the pain, until he finally had to shut it down. And this was all before his triceps surgery.

Samuels is a warrior, and I respect the heck out of him, but it was foolish to expect as much as we did out of him in '09.

Again, I don't understand why you think that Samuels was suddenly fragile. He was fully recovered from his injuries by training camp, with the exception of some knee soreness, which comes with the territory of OL who have been in the league for 10 years. I understand being nervous about Thomas, not not Samuels.

But all of the issues with the o-line are miniscule in comparison to the bigger picture here, which is that the Snyder/Cerrato front office had become such a punchline around the league that we really had no chance of landing a decent coach and coaching staff without a fundamental regime change.

Regardless of your feelings about Allen and Shanahan specifically, I think you'd have to at least acknowledge that.

After the circus of last year, I agree. But up till then, no. Two of the guys we interviewed in 2008 later did become head coaches. One other bowed out because he was promised the HC job on his current team.

[justice98]

I kinda would have been interested in seeing what would've happened if Vinny and Snyder were still running the show, but they still switched to a 3-4 and how Haynesworth would've acted. Probably the same, but Snyder wouldn't be so removed from the proceedings like he is now.

[NavyDave]

Vinny would have drafted LT in the 1st since Cris Samuels retirement was so obvious and fans like me were so vocal that anything else was out of the question, heck some were still wanting us to trade up for Stafford after getting McNabb.

Vinny still here also would have meant outbidding da Bears for Julius Peppers for the annual offseason splash and dangling two number 2's for Vincent Jackson which would have had me going nuts.

[themurf]

As a young player and a guy switching positions, I expect him to be a downgrade over Thomas, who has been playing for years at guard. That being said, he was really starting to pick up his game before he got hurt.

I know it's your thing to take the opposing stance as often as possible, but seriously - no one (except maybe his family) can say with a straight face that Chad Rinehart has done anything at any point in his NFL career to warrant consideration as a starter.

His most memorable moment since joining the Redskins is being arrested for being drunk and trying to break into a food joint. On the field, he's been completely forgettable.

[brianm23]

I asked if Cerrato did a good job of providing offensive line depth during his decade with the Redskins and was given four examples over a 10-year span.

If I'm correct, Gibbs 2.0 was in charge of personnel during his time here, so you can't stick Vinny with those bad choices. That said, him and Gibbs were horrible at running the show.

[brianm23]

As a young player and a guy switching positions, I expect him to be a downgrade over Thomas, who has been playing for years at guard. That being said, he was really starting to pick up his game before he got hurt.

:ols::ols::ols::ols::ols::ols::ols::ols:

:chug:

A bit early to be pounding beers bro.