Time: Arizona Republicans will likely introduce legislation this fall that would deny birth certificates to children born in Arizona

[greenspandan]

denying a united states citizen a birth certificate out of spite for their parents isn't "harsh", it's preposterous.

[Tweedr01]

What does this mean? Only one of his parents was from outside the U.S.

Do you see that little smiley face? This one right here --> :laugh:, I put that there to ensure that it was taken as a joke, you know, not serious, no comprende?

[Tweedr01]

Again, your narrow liberal view would leave you only that conclusion.

The truth is much more nuanced and probably too difficult for you to comprehend.

This second part is probably the correct answer.

[Tweedr01]

It's your own narrow view that makes you incapable of appreciating anyone's opposing view on this. After all, have you at all considered to why so-called liberals would disagree with the notion of denying birth certificates to a child, and why it just sounds like a bad idea?

Man, today is full of this:

Pot calling Kettle Black

[ATTACH]43954[/ATTACH]

[Tweedr01]

Invaders? I'm not scared of these little punks or their spawn I have my big fortress to protect me!

To be fair now, those are space invaders, and we have Ground To Air missiles for that....we have no fence for our southern borders!

[The 12th Commandment]

To be fair now, those are space invaders, and we have Ground To Air missiles for that....we have no fence for our southern borders!

Actually, in the places that aren't extreme relief we do. I like that added emotional element of this picture. We keep our desert Muley's on our side.

[Larry]

The thing I find most telling about the cries for fences is that apparently, in places where we already have fences (like near San Diego), the fence apparently isn't even enough of a deterrent to make the drug smugglers go around it.

They dig tunnels underneath it, instead.

To me, this says a lot about the theory that if we just had more fence, this problem would go away.

[AsburySkinsFan]

The thing I find most telling about the cries for fences is that apparently, in places where we already have fences (like near San Diego), the fence apparently isn't even enough of a deterrent to make the drug smugglers go around it.

They dig tunnels underneath it, instead.

To me, this says a lot about the theory that if we just had more fence, this problem would go away.

Exactly, which is why I keep drawing attention to "great walls" in the history of the world that failed to do exactly what this "fence" attempts to do.

BTW, I have a serious question. Does the fence run exactly along the border or does it sit to our side of the line a bit? I ask because my neighbor put up a privacy fence last year and I just assumed it was on the line, but apparently it had to be on his side of the line, if the fence is on our side, does that leave parts of those states on the other side of the fence, and is the US giving those portions of land to Mexico?

[The 12th Commandment]

The thing I find most telling about the cries for fences is that apparently, in places where we already have fences (like near San Diego), the fence apparently isn't even enough of a deterrent to make the drug smugglers go around it.

They dig tunnels underneath it, instead.

To me, this says a lot about the theory that if we just had more fence, this problem would go away.

Look at that mountain in the background of my picture. There are hundreds of similar mountains along the 1500 miles from El Paso to San Diego. Even if you went to the expense of building the wall, every time it rains hard (we have much different weather patterns than China re the great wall), which it does every year from July through September, there are major gully washers which transform the landscape. A lot. It would wipe out huge stretches of the wall every year and make gaping holes that a desert tortoise (who by the way naturally migrate north to south with no concept of borders) could easily cross before it could be fixed. Talk of the wall is really :beatdeadhorse:. It won't work and while effort might temporarily assuage the irrational anger that some people have towards illegals it would be a huge waste of money in a time when we don't have any extra.

[Kilmer17]

Exactly, which is why I keep drawing attention to "great walls" in the history of the world that failed to do exactly what this "fence" attempts to do.

BTW, I have a serious question. Does the fence run exactly along the border or does it sit to our side of the line a bit? I ask because my neighbor put up a privacy fence last year and I just assumed it was on the line, but apparently it had to be on his side of the line, if the fence is on our side, does that leave parts of those states on the other side of the fence, and is the US giving those portions of land to Mexico?

We'd have to pull permits.

[The 12th Commandment]

Exactly, which is why I keep drawing attention to "great walls" in the history of the world that failed to do exactly what this "fence" attempts to do.

BTW, I have a serious question. Does the fence run exactly along the border or does it sit to our side of the line a bit? I ask because my neighbor put up a privacy fence last year and I just assumed it was on the line, but apparently it had to be on his side of the line, if the fence is on our side, does that leave parts of those states on the other side of the fence, and is the US giving those portions of land to Mexico?

There's a mile or so on either side that is a no mans land and the wall is smack dab in the middle. That survey, to establish the border, was done as part of an international treaty (unlike the survey in you neighborhood) and the accuracy of it is not in question. (at least that's the case with the border and fence in my county) I've worked with the BP on all kinds of different projects over the years in my capacity as head of county mapping and they laugh at the prospect of a fence doing any good either. At least the ground level ones do, their bosses have to speak out of the side of their mouth to appease their bosses.

[Hubbs]

Look at that mountain in the background of my picture. There are hundreds of similar mountains along the 1500 miles from El Paso to San Diego. Even if you went to the expense of building the wall, every time it rains hard (we have much different weather patterns than China re the great wall), which it does every year from July through September, there are major gully washers which transform the landscape. A lot. It would wipe out huge stretches of the wall every year and make gaping holes that a desert tortoise (who by the way naturally migrate north to south with no concept of borders) could easily cross before it could be fixed. Talk of the wall is really :beatdeadhorse:. It won't work and while effort might temporarily assuage the irrational anger that some people have towards illegals it would be a huge waste of money in a time when we don't have any extra.

Hmmm. Do you know of any other ways we might be able to at least quasi-effectively stop random groups of people from just walking across the border at night? Is there any kind of computerized infrared camera system that's advanced enough to be able to automatically determine if a heat signature has a human form?

[mattsb84]

Hmmm. Do you know of any other ways we might be able to at least quasi-effectively stop random groups of people from just walking across the border at night? Is there any kind of computerized infrared camera system that's advanced enough to be able to automatically determine if a heat signature has a human form?

Any solution to properly secure that boarder would be obscenely expensive to both build and maintain. Doesn't matter what it is. Not to mention the man power needed to properly monitor it and enforce it.

[The 12th Commandment]

Hmmm. Do you know of any other ways we might be able to at least quasi-effectively stop random groups of people from just walking across the border at night? Is there any kind of computerized infrared camera system that's advanced enough to be able to automatically determine if a heat signature has a human form?

They have those, tethered to large balloons that look down from a half mile or so. They also have motion sensors and cameras. It's hard to get there in time since the spaces or so wide open, there are so many at times and there is a lack of any kind of road beyond a two track dirt trail climbing up those mountains. We're not going to ever be able effectively stop people who are determined from crossing in the middle of nowhere without a ridiculous amount of people and expenditure.

The key as you've seen me write before is to make it easier to cross legally than it is to cross illegally. No one outside of smugglers wants to risk life and limb for a job. They only do it because to them 5 years of waiting is not an alternative. They need work and money NOW. Just think of what they endure to come and work for what to us is peanuts. If there are not the large number of benign crossers (at least in terms of immediate danger) then it will be that much easier to respond to the ones who cross knowing that they ARE dangerous.

[Kilmer17]

Any solution to properly secure that boarder would be obscenely expensive to both build and maintain. Doesn't matter what it is. Not to mention the man power needed to properly monitor it and enforce it.

Landmines are cheap. A 50 foot wall manned every 5 feet 24 hours a day is prohibitve.

There is a realistic answer somewhere in between the two extremes.

[The 12th Commandment]

Landmines are cheap. A 50 foot wall manned every 5 feet 24 hours a day is prohibitve.

There is a realistic answer somewhere in between the two extremes.

You'd think so but there is not. Just as you can't stop all the Haitians and Cubans where you are. The desert is tantamount to the ocean in that respect.

[Tweedr01]

Landmines are cheap. A 50 foot wall manned every 5 feet 24 hours a day is prohibitve.

There is a realistic answer somewhere in between the two extremes.

Hahaha, landmines FTW!

[19Skins72]

That's bizarre. You don't support the recent AZ legislation because it would "target all hispanics," but you would support a law that would, in fact, "target Hispanics."

You know, good thing we didn't have these laws when every "Tom, Dick, and Harry" from Europe were coming here and having all those "anchor babies." You know?

I don't see what is bizarre in my stance Bacculus. I am pro anti-illegal immigration laws so long as they do not violate the rights of legal American citizens regardless of race.

The AZ law I referenced will result (imho) in the large scale racial profiling of legal citizens as well as the intended targets of the law.

Assuming I understand it correctly, this new law seeks to deny citizenship to the children of illegal immigrants. I fail to see how this will impact legal American citizens as no racial profiling, stop, search, or seizure is involved.

Perhaps my understanding is incorrect - if so, please enlighten me, but also please spare me any racial platitudes - your "good thing we didn't have these laws when every "Tom, Dick, and Harry" from Europe were coming here and having all those "anchor babies"" comment is about as relevant to this discussion as the 1800 hairs that are on my ass - illegal immigrants weren't a serious security concern until recently, and there is an economical impact now that did not exist a century ago.

Finally, I like the intent of this law as it aims to remove one of the reasons why illegal immigrants want to come here - that being said, I expect the law to be overturned in federal court due to what appear to be constitutional violations.

[19Skins72]

deleted due to double post.

[JimboDaMan]

Assuming I understand it correctly, this new law seeks to deny citizenship to the children of illegal immigrants. I fail to see how this will impact legal American citizens as no racial profiling, stop, search, or seizure is involved.

You don't understand it correctly. As written, it seeks to deny proof of citizenship to American citizens.

[The 12th Commandment]

It's because those kids are American citizens. Like it or not they are and refusing to issue them a birth certificate is discrimination against an American citizen.

[Baculus]

It's because those kids are American citizens. Like it or not they are and refusing to issue them a birth certificate is discrimination against an American citizen.

EXACTLY. That is why the "Constitution loving" folks don't seem to understand. It IS a form of discrimination.

[Tweedr01]

EXACTLY. That is why the "Constitution loving" folks don't seem to understand. It IS a form of discrimination.

And round the circle we go

:dance::effinpolitics:

We've already been here in this thread, please read the entire thread before reposting what has already been said. It is understood as of right now that this in the letter of the law is unconstitutional, per the 14th amendment (however information provided as to why the 14th amendment was created shows that it is not in the spirit of the law), that is not up for debate. This however will keep this a very hot topic and will keep attention on it, which makes people discuss, which may lead to change, which is constitutional in the constitution...actually the 14th amendment itself was a change to the constitution!

[The 12th Commandment]

And round the circle we go

:dance::effinpolitics:

We've already been here in this thread, please read the entire thread before reposting what has already been said. It is understood as of right now that this in the letter of the law is unconstitutional, per the 14th amendment (however information provided as to why the 14th amendment was created shows that it is not in the spirit of the law), that is not up for debate. This however will keep this a very hot topic and will keep attention on it, which makes people discuss, which may lead to change, which is constitutional in the constitution...actually the 14th amendment itself was a change to the constitution!

You have the wrong target, we we're explaining it again because another person hadn't read the whole thread or didn't comprehend it.

[Tweedr01]

You have the wrong target, we we're explaining it again because another person hadn't read the whole thread or didn't comprehend it.

Lol, well maybe I should read the thread!