UPDATE from CNN: Retracted autism study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds (See Post#221)

[Special K]

+1. Big time.

Haven't there been outbreaks of measles or something in certain areas, because kids aren't getting vaccinations?

I believe there has been an upsurge in measles cases in the UK due to under vaccination, if I remember right. We discussed it in one of my classes last year, but I forget if it was measles or not.

There have also been increased reports of whooping cough in American hospitals and other developed nations, although there is debate about whether this is related to the anti-vaccination push in some wealthy nations or whether the bacteria has become resistant to parts of the vaccine.

Where's the swineflu epidemic this year?

Well, many people have been vaccinated which has combatted further outbreaks.

Also, the virus didn't mutate into a more dangerous version, which is a blessing.

[Thiebear]

With the public school system you really have no choices do you?

I remember imus talking about this and it worried me, but if you want your child to attend class and not go to jail you HAVE to get the shots at the prescribed times.

[Predicto]

Here's a good graphical summary of the situation. Worth a read.

http://tallguywrites.livejournal.com/148012.html

[Dan T.]

Imus was pushing the theory that the Thimerosal used as a preservative for the vaccines was the cause. Is this the same thing that Wakefield was saying?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Yes. And she's an idiot.

And so are parents who don't get their children vaccinated for most infectious diseases. Sorry if it offends people, but this is a very strong belief of mine and I don't feel badly about saying that at all.

Thank you!! This was something I had to argue with my wife about a lot recently. She's terrified of the "link" between the vaccinations and autism. As I've told her, I understand that. We have so many people pushing this belief.

I don't necessarily blame parents who fear it or believe it. It's their right to do so I guess. However, there is nothing to show there is any correlation. The MMR shots are given around the time a kid will start to exhibit signs of autism. That's an unfortunate coincidence. So, what Jenny McCarthy says or believes is fine and I guess on some level it's great she's raising awareness. But it's so out there in the media now that it gives some parents a false fear of immunizations.

Even though it's relatively rare, they only hear or read about the cases where parents think there is a link. It would be different if every celebrity who disagreed with McCarthy spoke out too. That might show a more accurate representation of society.

Wow, I sure spouted off...as you can see, I'm pretty passionate too. Again, I don't mean to bash anyone who believes immunizations cause autism. I'm sure if you're in that situation (I have 2 kids, so I can sympathize) you want to attribute it to something. However, I've done research and there is nothing that shows there is a link.

I'm so happy that this "doctor" is getting the negative press he deserves for causing this scare!

[PeterMP]

Here's a good graphical summary of the situation. Worth a read.

http://tallguywrites.livejournal.com/148012.html

I always try to make the point to Ken that he is only being skeptical of one side. Yes, there is money to be made on one side of the argument, but that doesn't mean the otherside is only pushing it for altruistic reasons.

A true skeptic would start out with equal skepticism of both sides, and then go from there.

[Predicto]

I always try to make the point to Ken that he is only being skeptical of one side. Yes, there is money to be made on one side of the argument, but that doesn't mean the otherside is only pushing it for altruistic reasons.

A true skeptic would start out with equal skepticism of both sides, and then go from there.

That's because conspiracy theorists like Ken are not really looking for the objective truth.

They are looking to set themselves off into a special group with inside knowledge of hidden, special secrets - as opposed to all of us other "sheeple" who believe what we are told. That is why so many conspiracy theorists don't just believe in one bizarre theory, they believe in all of them. They get a rush out of it.

[ACW]

Here's a good graphical summary of the situation. Worth a read.

http://tallguywrites.livejournal.com/148012.html

Damn, so not only is Wakefield a quack, he had a financial interest and basically committed child abuse :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[ACW]

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/05/barred-in-britain-md-to-resume-autism-research-in-us.html

:doh::doh::doh:

[Henry]

A lot of people believe a lot of things that are wrong.

We all want to have some understanding of the REASON something bad happens. There has to be a reason, because random chance is just too frightening. There must be more to the 9/11 story, because it is really scary to think that we are that vulnerable to terrorists. There must be a connection between cell phones and brain cancer, because not knowing how to avoid cancer is really scary. etc.

I don't think it's random chance that the occurrence of autism has risen dramatically over the past 15-20 years. Something is going on and nobody has a clue why. And yes, that's very scary. I'm not saying it's vaccinations. If the medical community assures us it's not that then so be it, but 'it's just a crazy high rash of bad luck' isn't good enough either. Frankly, I'm flabbergasted at the medical community's lack of knowledge in the causes of autism considering the recent spike in it's occurrence. They seem more intent on lecturing us concerned parents on what isn't the problem than finding out what is.

Perhaps the best way to convince parents that it's not vaccinations is to find out what actually IS causing the dramatic increase in cases.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I don't think it's random chance that the occurrence of autism has risen dramatically over the past 15-20 years. Something is going on and nobody has a clue why. And yes, that's very scary. I'm not saying it's vaccinations. If the medical community assures us it's not that then so be it, but 'it's just a crazy high rash of bad luck' isn't good enough either. Frankly, I'm flabbergasted at the medical community's lack of knowledge in the causes of autism considering the recent spike in it's occurrence.

Perhaps the best way to convince parents that it's not vaccinations is to find out what actually IS causing the dramatic increase in cases.

I also know that occurrences are up because more kids are diagnosed. Many kids might have grown up in the past being mildly autistic and never diagnosed. The spectrum is more inclusive now. I would assume that 15 years ago, if a kid didn't remind you of someone like Rainman, he or she wasn't even considered autistic.

I wonder if occurrences of the severe cases are even up dramatically or at all. Total cases, yes because we have broadened the scope of what autism is.

[PeterMP]

I don't think it's random chance that the occurrence of autism has risen dramatically over the past 15-20 years. Something is going on and nobody has a clue why. And yes, that's very scary. I'm not saying it's vaccinations. If the medical community assures us it's not that then so be it, but 'it's just a crazy high rash of bad luck' isn't good enough either. Frankly, I'm flabbergasted at the medical community's lack of knowledge in the causes of autism considering the recent spike in it's occurrence. They seem more intent on lecturing us concerned parents on what isn't the problem than finding out what is.

Perhaps the best way to convince parents that it's not vaccinations is to find out what actually IS causing the dramatic increase in cases.

First, autism is unlikely to be caused by one thing. Something with the degree of symptoms and range of different symptoms is unlikely related to only one thing making determinations very difficult for cause.

Second, it isn't like we don't have any idea of what causes autism. People just don't like the answer much, especially after having an autistic child. The best links for autism are things not associated with vaccines, but family history and age of the parents on sort of a non-molecular basis.

http://autism.about.com/od/causesofautism/a/oldparents.htm

In some cases, we have a understanding of what is related to autism on a more molecular basis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16987877

"Moreover, the most common recurrent cytogenetic abnormalities in ASD involve maternally derived duplications of the imprinted domain on chromosome 15q11-13."

That doesn't mean we are any closer to curing it though, and people don't want to hear they shouldn't have kids in their mid to late-30s (or even later).

[Henry]

I also know that occurrences are up because more kids are diagnosed. Many kids might have grown up in the past being mildly autistic and never diagnosed. The spectrum is more inclusive now. I would assume that 15 years ago, if a kid didn't remind you of someone like Rainman, he or she wasn't even considered autistic.

I wonder if occurrences of the severe cases are even up dramatically or at all. Total cases, yes because we have broadened the scope of what autism is.

That accounts for some of the increase, but not all. Fifteen years ago was 1995, not 1955. Fifteen years ago people knew what Autism looked like. My son was born in 1999. He was diagnosed at the age of three. Since then, the number of diagnoses in this country has tripled.

[War Paint]

Who knows what is causing Autism or increased cancer rates among young people. However, I don't think it's a "conspiracy theory" to be concerned about mercury being in the shots, sodium fluoride (a deadly poison) in the tap water, harmful chemicals in plastic bottles and trays used for drinks and frozen foods, chemicals such as sodium nitrite, msg and high fructose corn syrup in our foods. There has also been articles about mercury being found in corn syrup. Why are these chemicals in our foods?

Why not use real sugar? Not to mention Splenda, which is really a pesticide and GMO corn having pesticides bred into the crop. Sorry, something is up with our food supply.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

That accounts for some of the increase, but not all. Fifteen years ago was 1995, not 1955. Fifteen years ago people knew what Autism looked like. My son was born in 1999. He was diagnosed at the age of three. Since then, the number of diagnoses in this country has tripled.

Right...but how old is that autism spectrum? I had never heard of that until very, very recently. I read about cases and symptoms every day that would not have even been considered in even 1995.

As a parent of an autistic child, I assume you are much more well-read on the topic. I'm a parent of two (3 and 1) so we've been researching (reading, talking to doctors, etc.) as much as possible. Obviously, we want to be prepared and equipped to handle anything that might occur.

If I'm wrong re: the spectrum, let me know. But I never got the impression that was something that has been around for 15 years.

[Henry]

Right...but how old is that autism spectrum? I had never heard of that until very, very recently. I read about cases and symptoms every day that would not have even been considered in even 1995.

As a parent of an autistic child, I assume you are much more well-read on the topic. I'm a parent of two (3 and 1) so we've been researching (reading, talking to doctors, etc.) as much as possible. Obviously, we want to be prepared and equipped to handle anything that might occur.

If I'm wrong re: the spectrum, let me know. But I never got the impression that was something that has been around for 15 years.

Here's a good link.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/media/video/speaking-of-science/bearman.shtml

Dr. Bearman: Well that’s a complicated question, but I think we can pretty uniquely associate about a quarter of the increase from the birth cohorts from 1992 to 2001 which is a lot, to diagnostic change on the border between diagnosis and mental retardation in autism. I think we can associate about 16 percent of the increase on the other border between autism and other neurodevelopmental disorders on the spectrum: Asperger’s, PPDNOS etc. And those are largely non over-lapping components of increase, so that’s about 40 percent. I think the spacial clustering itself adds another few percent. I would say I am confident that 40 percent of the increase I think I know what caused that. That leaves a lot of increase left, 50 percent is a lot to look for still.

My point here is not that we should stop vaccinating our kids. But that suggesting that something is going on beyond bad luck and demanding answers does not put concerned parents on the same plane as the birther or truther conspiracy theory wackos. As PeterMP says there are likely a lot of factors involved in this increase. We need to be vigilant in finding those factors, and not just tell parents 'them's the breaks.'

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Here's a good link.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/media/video/speaking-of-science/bearman.shtml

My point here is not that we should stop vaccinating our kids. But that suggesting that something is going on beyond bad luck and demanding answers does not put concerned parents on the same plane as the birther or truther conspiracy theory wackos. As PeterMP says there are likely a lot of factors involved in this increase. We need to be vigilant in finding those factors, and not just tell parents 'them's the breaks.'

Thanks for the link. That was interesting.

No, I agree. I'm not saying that we should just write it off and say "that's life" nor did I think you were a proponent of ending vaccinations. I think looking into all the crap that we put in our foods/drugs would be a great start.

I guess I assumed (first problem right there) that more than 40% of the increase could be attributed to them broadening the scope of autism. Again, I appreciate the information as I love to become more astute on these types of things.

How's your child doing, by the way (if you don't mind me asking)?

[PeterMP]

Who knows what is causing Autism or increased cancer rates among young people. However, I don't think it's a "conspiracy theory" to be concerned about mercury being in the shots, sodium fluoride (a deadly poison) in the tap water, harmful chemicals in plastic bottles and trays used for drinks and frozen foods, chemicals such as sodium nitrite, msg and high fructose corn syrup in our foods. There has also been articles about mercury being found in corn syrup. Why are these chemicals in our foods?

Why not use real sugar? Not to mention Splenda, which is really a pesticide and GMO corn having pesticides bred into the crop. Sorry, something is up with our food supply.

First, there has been a real effort to remove mercury from vaccines. Few vaccines are made with any mercury or mercury containing compounds. For the ones that are made with them in, they are processed to remove at least most of the mercury.

In terms of why HFC instead of sugar because sugar is expensive due the limited growing range of sugar.

As for the rest, we've largely gone to using glass and pans without non-stick codings, and I don't see why most people wouldn't do likewise.

There's absolutely no reason to microwave or cook something in a plastic container.

(I want to point out that there doesn't appear to be any tie to any of these things and autism, but certainly some things, especially from plastics, are clearly tied to several diseases.)

[Predicto]

I don't think it's random chance that the occurrence of autism has risen dramatically over the past 15-20 years. Something is going on and nobody has a clue why. And yes, that's very scary. I'm not saying it's vaccinations. If the medical community assures us it's not that then so be it, but 'it's just a crazy high rash of bad luck' isn't good enough either. Frankly, I'm flabbergasted at the medical community's lack of knowledge in the causes of autism considering the recent spike in it's occurrence. They seem more intent on lecturing us concerned parents on what isn't the problem than finding out what is.

Perhaps the best way to convince parents that it's not vaccinations is to find out what actually IS causing the dramatic increase in cases.

Absolutely agree that autism is a real, growing concern and that there are no satisfactory answers so far.

It is understandable that concerned parents reach out for something, anything to provide them with comfort and a sense of understanding what is going on. Basic human nature. But the fact that it is understandable does not mean that it is useful, or accurate, or helpful.

The parents are not "being lectured on what isn't the problem" just so people can say "nay nya you guys are idiots!" They are being lectured so that they will get their kids vaccinated despire their understandable (but incorrect) fears, because vaccinations are really important.

If this guy had been telling people that eating cashews causes autism, it would be no big deal (except to the cashew industry). But he was undermining the vaccination program and putting millions of kids at risk for no good reason. In that context, lecturing parents is appropriate, IMO.

[War Paint]

First, there has been a real effort to remove mercury from vaccines. Few vaccines are made with any mercury or mercury containing compounds. For the ones that are made with them in, they are processed to remove at least most of the mercury.

The fact is that the overwhelming majority of the vaccines do have mercury still in them. A couple of years ago my mom was hounding everyone she knew to get a flu shot. I told her that it had mercury in it. She thought I was full of it. The day she went to get a shot, she asked the nurse about it. The nurse had no idea, responding she didn't think so. The nurse asked the doctor. The doctor confirmed it did and made my mom sign a form stating that she was aware of the mercury.

In terms of why HFC instead of sugar because sugar is expensive due the limited growing range of sugar.

So we should poison the country to save a few bucks?

As for the rest, we've largely gone to using glass and pans without non-stick codings, and I don't see why most people wouldn't do likewise.

Where did I even talk about pots and pans?

There's absolutely no reason to microwave or cook something in a plastic container.

Unfortunately, the way to cook hungry man frozen dinners and other frozen foods is keeping it in the plastic tray. Most people don't think about the plastics leaking chemicals into the food. The same goes with drinking from plastic bottles.

[PeterMP]

The fact is that the overwhelming majority of the vaccines do have mercury still in them. A couple of years ago my mom was hounding everyone she knew to get a flu shot. I told her that it had mercury in it. She thought I was full of it. The day she went to get a shot, she asked the nurse about it. The nurse had no idea, responding she didn't think so. The nurse asked the doctor. The doctor confirmed it did and made my mom sign a form stating that she was aware of the mercury.

This simply isn't true in the US, especially for vaccines given to kids under 6.

The fact of the matter is there isn't a single thing that you routinely vaccinate a kid for under 6, where there isn't a thimerosal/Hg free option, and the vast majority of them have NONE.

http://www.fda.gov/biologicsbloodvaccines/safetyavailability/vaccinesafety/ucm096228.htm#t1

In fact looking at table 3, unless you are being vaccinated for Japanese encephiliatis or tetanus toxoid, there is always AT LEAST an option where the thimerosal/HG has been removed to below levels of detection, and the majority of vaccines still have VERY VERY LITTE or NONE as it was removed or never in it.

Pots and pans are relevant with respect to not using plastic.

[MassSkinsFan]

This simply isn't true in the US, especially for vaccines given to kids under 6.

The fact of the matter is there isn't a single thing that you routinely vaccinate a kid for under 6, where there isn't a thimerosal/Hg free option, and the vast majority of them have NONE.

http://www.fda.gov/biologicsbloodvaccines/safetyavailability/vaccinesafety/ucm096228.htm#t1

In fact looking at table 3, unless you are being vaccinated for Japanese encephiliatis or tetanus toxoid, there is always AT LEAST an option where the thimerosal/HG has been removed to below levels of detection, and the majority of vaccines still have VERY VERY LITTE or NONE as it was removed or never in it.

Pots and pans are relevant with respect to not using plastic.

Data > tin foil hats

[War Paint]

This simply isn't true in the US, especially for vaccines given to kids under 6.

The fact of the matter is there isn't a single thing that you routinely vaccinate a kid for under 6, where there isn't a thimerosal/Hg free option, and the vast majority of them have NONE.

http://www.fda.gov/biologicsbloodvaccines/safetyavailability/vaccinesafety/ucm096228.htm#t1

In fact looking at table 3, unless you are being vaccinated for Japanese encephiliatis or tetanus toxoid, there is always AT LEAST an option where the thimerosal/HG has been removed to below levels of detection, and the majority of vaccines still have VERY VERY LITTE or NONE as it was removed or never in it.

Pots and pans are relevant with respect to not using plastic.

Why do you keep on bringing up pots and pans? It has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. Nothing. Does a TV dinner come in a pot? Does it? Does a hungry man dinner come in glass? Does it? Do most beverages, outside of wine and beer, such as water and soda come in plastic? Most frozen dinners come in a plastic tray.

Of course one could avoid tv dinners and all frozen foods. Unfortunately, most people are forced to purchase these because of time constraints.

[War Paint]

Data > tin foil hats

Yeah, because your work had nothing to do with vaccines right?

Massfans occupation

Quality Assurance Director, Vaccines

LOL

[War Paint]

Maybe some states had different flu vaccine availability, but most of the flu vaccines here in NC had mercury. There were special times of availability for mercury free flu vaccinations, but it was of limited supply. It was the nasal vaccine that was free of it, but supposedly the nasal spray had live viruses in it.