UPDATE from CNN: Retracted autism study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds (See Post#221)

[The Evil Genius]

Is the suggestion then that mercury poisoning (mad hatter's disease) is the same as autism? Or am I missing something?

[PeterMP]

Maybe some states had different flu vaccine availability, but most of the flu vaccines here in NC had mercury. There were special times of availability for mercury free flu vaccinations, but it was of limited supply. It was the nasal vaccine that was free of it, but supposedly the nasal spray had live viruses in it.

The nasal mist flu vaccine never has mercury. Yes it has virus in it, but what is the worse case scenario. That you get the flu from the vaccine(which is very rare even with the mist vaccine and essentially unheard of with the injection).

For the injection vaccine, most manufactures make a thimerosal free (or removed) version and a non-thimerosal free version. The thimerosal free version is normally reserved for young children and/or people that have health issues where getting thimerosal will likely cause them problems.

The amount of Hg in vaccines from thimerosal is still pretty low, and there is no evidence that what you are getting is going to negatively affect a healthy and normal adult. I will point out the topic of this thread is NOT an increase in particular illnesses in adults as the result of vaccinations, but children.

BUT you didn't even say flu vaccine. Your orignal post said MOST vaccines, which is completely untrue.

[PeterMP]

Why do you keep on bringing up pots and pans? It has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. Nothing. Does a TV dinner come in a pot? Does it? Does a hungry man dinner come in glass? Does it? Do most beverages, outside of wine and beer, such as water and soda come in plastic? Most frozen dinners come in a plastic tray.

Of course one could avoid tv dinners and all frozen foods. Unfortunately, most people are forced to purchase these because of time constraints.

1. What time constraints? The tv they have to sit down and watch?

2. You can take them out of the plastic tray and microwave them.

[War Paint]

BUT you didn't even say flu vaccine. Your orignal post said MOST vaccines, which is completely untrue.

I should have clarified that better. I was thinking of flu and H1N1 vaccines. However, you shouldn't nit pick my wording considering you were pulling pots and pans out your butt.

Thimerosal has been around for a very long time. Let's say out of all vaccines, not just flu vaccines, how common was the chemical in vaccines throughout the last 75 years? Was it in most vaccines in the 60's, 70's and 80's?

[War Paint]

1. What time constraints? The tv they have to sit down and watch?

2. You can take them out of the plastic tray and microwave them.

Peter, are you really serious? You sound like you're being obnoxious now. Would you like to provide a solution for drinks? Should someone drive to a bottled water plant and request glass bottles? Should a person drive to their water plant and request water that's free of sodium fluoride? Perhaps a splenda commercial should not show kids enjoying the product with a happy family. Maybe a splenda commercial should show that it came from scientists creating a pesticide.

[Ken]

Yeah, because your work had nothing to do with vaccines right?

Massfans occupation

Quality Assurance Director, Vaccines

LOL

Nice catch!

Talk about blood on your hands....

[The Evil Genius]

I have a question....

If mercury levels were higher and live cultures were often used in the shots from the 60's, 70's, and 80's - how come the autism rates were not extremely high then?

Is it purely a diagnosis breakthrough?

[Ken]

Yes. And she's an idiot.

And so are parents who don't get their children vaccinated for most infectious diseases. Sorry if it offends people, but this is a very strong belief of mine and I don't feel badly about saying that at all.

Well,

I have 4 kids...the first two(9 and 7) were almost completely vaccinated and the last two(3 and 1) have not been.

Guess which ones are never sick and are vibrant and full of life? Also smart as whips?

Not that my first two are not vibrant and smart (I attribute that to the fact that they don't do what all of the other kids do like eat crap, worship the tv, have cell phones etc..), it is just that they get sick all the time.

I think I'll take my chances that they will be able to get over the flu,chickenpox and measles etc. Somehow I have had all three and I am still here...

Go figure.

[Ken]

I have a question....

If mercury levels were higher and live cultures were often used in the shots from the 60's, 70's, and 80's - how come the autism rates were not extremely high then?

Is it purely a diagnosis breakthrough?

Probably since the vaccine schedule has gone from like (don't quote me) 8 required shots by age 5 to 48?

Those numbers may not be exact, but the increase is..

[Ken]

Yes. And she's an idiot.

And so are parents who don't get their children vaccinated for most infectious diseases. Sorry if it offends people, but this is a very strong belief of mine and I don't feel badly about saying that at all.

Also...

She's an idiot because she has cured her son of Autism and there was a strong correlation to vaccinations causing it?

Ok.....

I can see you do not have any kids. When you do, your perspective may change.

[The Evil Genius]

So then - the assumption is that mad hatters disease (mercury poisoning) is the same as autism?

[Ken]

I always try to make the point to Ken that he is only being skeptical of one side. Yes, there is money to be made on one side of the argument, but that doesn't mean the otherside is only pushing it for altruistic reasons.

A true skeptic would start out with equal skepticism of both sides, and then go from there.

I have looked at both sides. I had to with my first two kids who got the shots because I was guilt ed into it by doctors. I trusted them even with my first...

Imagine my thought when I had my first girl...the primal instinct to protect my new family was strong. I held my daughter all day those first couple of days. Then, later in day one of life, I have a nurse come up and say it is time for her Hep B shot. I said, "are you serious? She was just born a couple of hours ago?" I also said isn't Hepatitis B mainly contracted by Sex Addicts and drug addicts? I don't think I have anything to worry about for a while...

So i succumbed and let them shoot her full of Hep B day 1 of life. Looking back at her vaccination records a few months ago, they also gave her ANOTHER hep B shot 2 weeks after she was born when my wife took her and I was at work. I had been researching vaccination at that point and was astounded by what was in them.

Not until I had kids did I ever care to look into what was in a vaccination. I know everyone in this thread is focused on Mercury, but there are a bunch of substances that are just as dangerous in most vaccines.

Not too long ago the FDA said that the Rotarix vaccine had Pig Virus in it. Pig Virus and many other types of viruses that are undetectable are in every vaccination. You have no idea what you are putting in your body and anyone who says they are safe is crocked.

I have looked at both sides and there is NO ONE who can tell me that shooting Mercury (trace amounts or otherwise), Alluminum, Neomycin (which should never be shot intraveniously, unless it is in a vaccine...lol), Chick Embryos, Live viruses, even dead viruses. Sorry, not happening.

What is interesting, and I realize everyone is focused on Mercury here, but Neomycin is actually used to kill bacteria in the intestinal tract. Gee, isn't the healthy flora of our gut "bacteria"? Wonder what happens when you don't have any?

Hmm......

[Ken]

So then - the assumption is that mad hatters disease (mercury poisoning) is the same as autism?

No, but there it is interesting how closely they resemble each other in description.

There are a number of ways vaccines destroy health. Mercury is only one of them.

Autism is only one of them.

[Ken]

With the public school system you really have no choices do you?

I remember imus talking about this and it worried me, but if you want your child to attend class and not go to jail you HAVE to get the shots at the prescribed times.

It is a lie to say that kids HAVE to get shots. I went through this with a buddy of mine back in NJ.

I showed him the statute that says exceptions being "Religious Exemption" and "Medical exemption".

I personally use a religious exemption which all of the states use. Some use a "Philosophical" exemption.

It was interesting a couple of years ago when, I believe it was Baltimore, where parents were going to be arrested if their kids weren't vaccinated.

No one told them about the "Religious" exemption and I heard an interview of the prosecutor say that he doesn't vaccinate his kids while laughing.

Yea...it is evil.

[Ken]

Ok, so back to Wakefield....I have seen people in this thread say he should: Go to Jail, be brought up on Manslaughter Charges, and be charged with Child abuse.

Yet...even in this very article that started this thread, it said that his findings had nothing to do with his actual results. Interesting, no? If he really harmed these kids, then why are ALL 12 of the parents supporting him?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1246775/Doctor-centre-MMR-row-Andrew-Wakefield-faces-struck-GMC-ruling.html#ixzz0p7KsebTV

Damning verdict on MMR doctor: Anger as GMC attacks 'callous disregard' for sick children

By Fiona Macrae and David Wilkes

Last updated at 12:16 AM on 30th January 2010

The doctor who sparked the MMR controversy faces being struck off for showing a ‘callous disregard’ for the suffering of children.

Andrew Wakefield, who first linked the triple jab to autism and bowel problems, acted ‘dishonestly and irresponsibly’ when publicising his research, the General Medical Council ruled yesterday.

Its verdict at the end of the longest and most expensive hearing in its 148-year history was supposed to draw a line under the 12-year saga provoked by his study of 12 autistic children published in the Lancet.

Dr Andrew Wakefield with wife Carmel at GMC HQ

After the hearing: Dr Andrew Wakefield with wife Carmel at GMC HQ in London

Instead there were extraordinary scenes as parents at the hearing voiced their support for the doctor.

One, Allison Edwards, shouted ‘this is a set-up, it’s disgusting’, and stormed out. Another shouted: ‘****s.’

Dr Wakefield did not attend the reading of the verdict but appeared outside the GMC’s central London headquarters, and was followed down the street by chants of ‘For he’s a jolly good fellow’.

The doctor later said he was ‘extremely disappointed’ and branded as ‘unfounded and unjust’ the allegations against him and two research colleagues.

The charges

Dr Wakefield’s supporters claim he was the victim of a witch-hunt because none of the families featured in the controversial study complained to the GMC. The parents of the children he treated say he is guilty only of doing his job properly.

The GMC went out of its way to say it is assessing the way Dr Wakefield went about his research and not the validity of his findings, but to many, it is the safety of MMR that was on trial.

The hearing, which started in July 2007, centred on a study of a dozen children by Dr Wakefield and 12 doctors which linked the MMR jab with autism and bowel problems.

It was published in the Lancet, the highly respected medical journal, in 1998 but stopped short of blaming the triple jab for the children’s symptoms.

But, at a press conference, Dr Wakefield said there were ‘ sufficient anxieties for a case to be made’ to give the three vaccines separately.

Numerous other studies, including one involving three million children, failed to make the link.

But vaccination rates went into freefall, and in 2006 a 13-year-old boy died in the country’s first measles fatality for 14 years.

Another death followed two years later.

The controversy reached its peak in late 2001 when Tony and Cherie Blair refused to say if their son, Leo, had been vaccinated.

The GMC started to investigate Dr Wakefield in 2004 when the Lancet publicly rejected the paper because he had failed to declare he had received £55,000 in legal aid to advise the solicitors working for parents considering suing over MMR.

The money went into an account held for his research funds at the Royal Free Hospital in London.

Two of his fellow researchers, professors John Walker-Smith and Simon Murch, were also brought before the GMC but faced fewer allegations.

Yesterday, after listening to 36 witnesses give evidence over 148 days, at a cost of more than £1million, the five-member panel upheld a raft of charges against the three.

The GMC said Dr Wakefield took blood samples from youngsters at his son’s birthday party in the late 1990s and then laughed about it during a U.S. presentation in March

1999.

The panel’s chairman Dr Surinder Kumar said: ‘Despite your explanation that you did not consider it unethical to obtain blood in this way, the panel found that it was unethical and that you did not have ethical approval for such an undertaking.

‘It also found that you showed a callous disregard for the distress and pain you knew or ought to have known the children involved might suffer. You abused your position of trust as a medical practitioner.’

Dr Kumar said Dr Wakefield’s conduct at the U.S. seminar ‘was such as to bring the medical profession into disrepute’.

Dr Wakefield was also found to have ordered some of the youngsters featured in the Lancet article to undergo unnecessary colonoscopies, barium meals, blood and urine tests and brain scans.

Some of the tests were carried out by professors Walker-Smith and Murch.

The GMC said Dr Wakefield was ‘dishonest’ in not telling the Legal Aid Board that some of the £55,000 he received went towards wages for his staff, rather than the specific tests and care he had outlined. However, he did not gain personally from the money.

He was also criticised for not telling the Lancet he had filed a patent for a measles vaccine to rival MMR, and for starting a child on an experimental drug called Transfer Factor, which he planned to produce and sell, without the necessary paediatric qualifications.

The panel decided the allegations against the three doctors could amount to serious professional misconduct and will rule on their fate at a later hearing.

Last night, as parents of the ‘Lancet 12’ stood by the trio, Jackie Fletcher of vaccination support group Jabs said: ‘This has been a witch-hunt against the three doctors.

The bottom line is that no parent has complained and no child has been injured.’

But the medical establishment gave the vaccine its full backing, with 12 organisations including the British Medical Association endorsing a statement which states there is no link between MMR and autism.

'Not one parent ever complained. He was the only doctor who ever listened to us'

Andrew Wakefield and his team at the Royal Free Hospital studied 12 children aged three to ten. All had intestinal disorders and nine were diagnosed with autism. In eight cases the symptoms emerged soon after the child received the MMR jab. The study became a key aspect of the allegations at the GMC - even though none of the 'Lancet families' complained. The children were not identified during the GMC hearing but some of their parents have agreed to tell their stories to the Daily Mail.

For Isabella Thomas, Andrew Wakefield was the only doctor who 'ever really listened'.

Mrs Thomas, 52, who lives with husband Ian in Somerset where they run a business, said their sons Michael, now 17, and Terry, 15, both had severe reactions after having the MMR jab.

'Michael was referred to the Royal Free when he was five because he had bad bowel symptoms,' she said. 'I was excited when he went there, thinking, "Thank God, at least someone is trying to do something for the children and relieve their pain".

'We as parents were treated at the hospital with the utmost respect and told everything that was going on.

'Michael was put on a medication that helped him enormously through his pain. Terry had similar symptoms and was referred there too when he was three.

'What I find really frightening is that the GMC is normally there to protect the patients from the doctors, but in this case none of us complained and I feel as if our children are being used by the GMC.

'I feel the children are being used as political pawns - it has not been about protecting the children. It is about protecting MMR.

'I firmly believe these doctors are going to be hung out to dry because they dared to question MMR.

'Dr Wakefield and his colleagues are the only doctors who ever really listened to us. I fear now that no doctor will want to have anything to do with helping any child that is harmed by any vaccine in the future.'

She said that after Michael had the MMR jab when he was 14 months old he began 'screaming and making a high pitch screeching like a cat'.

She added: 'He was like a wild animal he was in so much pain.'

When her youngest son Terry was a few months old, Mrs Thomas noticed him having convulsions, and doctors explained that sometimes happened in small children.

'One consultant told me that if he didn't have MMR he could die from measles because he was prone to convulsions,' she said.

'But after the jab, he came out in a burns rash and I knew this was not normal. He had an extremely high temperature and was very pale, and I knew what was happening because of Michael.

'I was told to accept my children as they were but I knew something was wrong.'

Mrs Thomas repeatedly visited doctors and questioned the MMR jab.

But, she says, they told her she was too complaining and should stop investigating a potential link with the jab. 'They basically threatened that if I carriedon causing a fuss then my children would be put on the at-risk register,' she says.

Mrs Thomas said: 'I am not anti-vaccine. We are parents who love our children.

'Any parent who had a child suffering would do anything to help them and that is why we support Dr Wakefield.'

Rochelle Poulter, 50, and her husband Graham, 54, a gas engineer live near Horsham, West Sussex. Their son Matthew, now 19, had the MMR jab aged 15 months.

Mrs Poulter said: 'He was a really happy baby until then. Afterwards he was really miserable, became much less sociable and started to lose the few words of speech he had and developed bowel problems.'

He was diagnosed with autism aged five. His parents thought they had come to terms with his condition until a chance remark at a mother and toddler group.

Mother- of-three Mrs Poulter said: 'A mother asked me if he had received his MMR jab, because she'd heard there might be a link with autism and bowel disorders. It was like someone had hit me. All the pieces fell into place. I cried.'

Matthew was referred to the Royal Free Hospital by his GP at the family's request after they heard about the work going on there.

Mrs Poulter said: 'I was happy with the investigations they proposed because nobody else at that time was looking into these problems like they were.'

Matthew had a colonoscopy and a lumbar puncture.

His mother said: 'I am disgusted the GMC has wasted so much time and money on this where not a single parent has complained.'

Angela Bennett, 48, and her partner David Mulray, 50, live in Liverpool. Their son Kevin Mulray had the MMR jab at 13 months.

Miss Bennett said: 'After he had the vaccine he had a nose bleed and a very high temperature which lasted for five days. Then he started banging his cot and crying a lot.

'Gradually his speech got less and less comprehensible and went completely by the time he was 18 months.

'At first he was diagnosed with learning difficulties with autistic tendencies just before he was three.

'Health visitors would say I was just being an over-protective mum. Then he was diagnosed with autism just before he was seven.

'I found out about Andrew Wakefield and the Royal Free Hospital through the support group for vaccine-damaged children, Jabs.

'At the hospital Dr Wakefield outlined what they could do to help. No one at the Royal Free mishandled Kevin and they told me exactly what they were going to do before they did it.'

Mrs Bennett was by her son's side as he underwent both a colonoscopy and a lumbar puncture, and still supports the decision to carry them out.

'The complaints did not come from the parents. I feel sorry for Andrew Wakefield and the other two doctors because they were there to help the children.

'They were the only ones that really listened to the parents. The doctors in Liverpool had told us there's nothing to help Kevin, there's no miracle cure.

'At least Dr Wakefield took an interest in where the autism was coming from.'

Kevin is now 20 and in adult care, returning home for the weekends.

Jab take-up fell, measles cases rose

Take-up of the MMR jab plunged by 12 per cent after Dr Wakefield linked the triple vaccine to autism in 1998.

Until then the rate was 91 per cent - close to the 95 per cent needed for 'herd immunity', where so many are vaccinated that it becomes very hard for the bug to spread.

By 2003, it had fallen to 80 per cent nationwide and to below 50 per cent in some parts of London.

Tony Blair with wife Cherie and son Leo

Fuelling panic: Tony and Cherie Blair refused to say if their son Leo had the MMR

And the number of measles cases was on the rise.

Health officials said it was vital that children were vaccinated but parents accused the Government of trying to force their hand by refusing to offer single jabs against the three diseases on the NHS.

The MMR jab, which is easier to give than single shots, was introduced in 1988, when measles infected tens of thousands of children a year and killed up to 25.

In the same year Dr Wakefield, who was studying the causes of bowel disease at West London's Royal Free Hospital, started receiving calls from worried parents.

They described how their apparently healthy children had developed autism and bowel problems soon after being given the vaccine.

The next year Dr Wakefield and a dozen colleagues began to study 12 such youngsters.

MMR - THE VACCINE

MMR is the combined vaccine against measles, mumps and rubella and helps to reduce the risk of epidemics. It contains weakened versions of the live disease viruses.

It is given to children at around 13 months of age after the immunity the baby got from their mother fades.

It is given again when children are aged between three and five to increase the chance that those who didn't acquire immunity from the first jab are protected.

Over 500 million doses of MMR have been used in over 90 countries around the world since the early 1970s.

The World Health Organization states that MMR is a highly effective vaccine with an outstanding safety record (WHO, 2001).

Their paper in the Lancet in 1998 stopped short of blaming MMR for the children's symptoms but called for more research.

But Dr Wakefield told journalists he could no longer support the use of the MMR triple jab.

The Government immediately sought to calm fears, with a panel of 37 experts saying there was no evidence of a link between MMR and bowel disease or autism.

In April, the Lancet published a Finnish study of three million children which found no evidence of autism being caused by MMR.

Two further studies published in June came to the same conclusion. But the idea had taken hold and vaccination rates plunged.

The following year, Tony Blair was accused of adding to the confusion when he refused to say whether his youngest son Leo had received the jab.

By 2003, vaccination levels had fallen to 80 per cent.

Tens of thousands of parents paid up to £400 for separate shots against measles, mumps and rubella but the bigger number of injections required cut the odds of a child completing the course and so being fully protected against the diseases.

Others shunned the MMR jab altogether.

Dr Wakefield stood by his research. In 2002, he published another paper linking measles, bowel disease and autism.

The GMC decided to investigate him in 2004, when the Lancet publicly rejected his findings.

Lancet editor Richard Horton declared the 1998 paper 'fatally flawed' and ten of the 13 authors partially retracted the findings.

Chief Medical Officer Professor Sir Liam Donaldson accused Dr Wakefield of 'mixing spin and science' and blamed his research for a loss of confidence in a vaccine that had saved millions of lives.

Vaccination levels started to rise in 2004 but were not high enough by 2006 to prevent the death of a 13-year-old boy in the North-West.

He was the first person in the UK to die from measles in 14 years.

2008 saw measles cases in England and Wales rise by 36 per cent to 1,348 - and experts said there was a real chance of an epidemic.

Now the vaccination rate stands at 87 per cent. To date, at least a dozen studies have failed to find a link between the vaccine and autism.

However, a 2006 U.S. study found the measles virus in the guts of autistic children with bowel disease. (BRING THEM UP ON CHARGES!)

It is still possible to buy single shots of the measles and rubella vaccines but production of Mumpsvax, the sole single jab against the disease, ceased last year.

[Special K]

I don't think it's random chance that the occurrence of autism has risen dramatically over the past 15-20 years. Something is going on and nobody has a clue why. And yes, that's very scary. I'm not saying it's vaccinations. If the medical community assures us it's not that then so be it, but 'it's just a crazy high rash of bad luck' isn't good enough either. Frankly, I'm flabbergasted at the medical community's lack of knowledge in the causes of autism considering the recent spike in it's occurrence. They seem more intent on lecturing us concerned parents on what isn't the problem than finding out what is.

Perhaps the best way to convince parents that it's not vaccinations is to find out what actually IS causing the dramatic increase in cases.

I do not discount autism concerns and I do not think people who worry about autism are "crazy." I absolutely agree that it is a significant, growing, problem, very likely from increased diagnostic specificity as well as environmental variables. I don't think this a completely random occurance either.

I have, however, reached and exceeded my threshold for tolerance of unfounded fears regarding vaccines that have led so many people (and it can be argued, led a change in societal attitude) to the point where they think all vaccines are bad and are preventing their CHILDREN from getting them. This continues to pose an increasing risk to the public's health, not to mention the health of the children not being vaccinated against major diseases because their parents have been so backasswardly misled on this subject.

Yes. Vaccines are not 100% safe. Neither is the Children's Tylenol you (not you specifically) keep in your medicine cabinet. There is a risk with ANYTHING that is put into the body, no matter how "benign" the medicine might appear.

That being said, there has NEVER been a proven link between vaccines and autism...yet you've got Hollywood morons and scientists with profit-driven agendas going around proclaiming that this link exists and encouraging high risk health behavior, like the rest of the medical and public health community are in on this big frickin conspiracy to screw over everyone because after all, that's why we go into the health field any way

I'm sorry, I'm not speaking specifically to you Henry. The reason I quoted your post was to tell you that I agree with you that autism is a concern and I don't think it's random either. The rest is me going off because I had a rough day dealing with complete insanity, ahhhhhhhhh!

Well,

I have 4 kids...the first two(9 and 7) were almost completely vaccinated and the last two(3 and 1) have not been.

Guess which ones are never sick and are vibrant and full of life? Also smart as whips?

Not that my first two are not vibrant and smart (I attribute that to the fact that they don't do what all of the other kids do like eat crap, worship the tv, have cell phones etc..), it is just that they get sick all the time.

I think I'll take my chances that they will be able to get over the flu,chickenpox and measles etc. Somehow I have had all three and I am still here...

Go figure.

Nice scientific method utilization there. You never fail to impress, my friend.

[PeterMP]

I should have clarified that better. I was thinking of flu and H1N1 vaccines. However, you shouldn't nit pick my wording considering you were pulling pots and pans out your butt.

Thimerosal has been around for a very long time. Let's say out of all vaccines, not just flu vaccines, how common was the chemical in vaccines throughout the last 75 years? Was it in most vaccines in the 60's, 70's and 80's?

H1N1 vaccine in the US did not have thimerosal. It was prevelant in vaccines for several decades and still is in Europe.

Despite that, the rate of various childhood diseases have not fallen in the US as compared to pre-thimerosal vaccines or Europe.

I didn't pull pots and pans out of my butt. You were talking about cooking in plastic. The answer to that is using pots and pans.

[zoony]

Keep in mind, Ken isn't actually interested in learning or having a debate. He's just going to spam the thread and embarass himself with faulty logic, etc. Actually, he doesn't get embarassed. We all do though.

He has been so thoroughly owned on this issue almost as often as he's been owned on his 9-11 bull****.

Ken, here's a tip. Quit while you're ahead.

[War Paint]

H1N1 vaccine in the US did not have thimerosal. It was prevelant in vaccines for several decades and still is in Europe.

Despite that, the rate of various childhood diseases have not fallen in the US as compared to pre-thimerosal vaccines or Europe.

I didn't pull pots and pans out of my butt. You were talking about cooking in plastic. The answer to that is using pots and pans.

I was talking about tv dinners and frozen foods, which come in plastic trays, which the directions say, cook in the tray. I did not say one thing about cooking with plastic pots and pans lol. Geez....have you never heard of a Hungry Man dinner before?

[PeterMP]

I have looked at both sides and there is NO ONE who can tell me that shooting Mercury (trace amounts or otherwise), Alluminum, Neomycin (which should never be shot intraveniously, unless it is in a vaccine...lol), Chick Embryos, Live viruses, even dead viruses. Sorry, not happening.

Do you even know what intravenious means?

[Ken]

Keep in mind, Ken isn't actually interested in learning or having a debate. He's just going to spam the thread and embarass himself with faulty logic, etc. Actually, he doesn't get embarassed. We all do though.

He has been so thoroughly owned on this issue almost as often as he's been owned on his 9-11 bull****.

Ken, here's a tip. Quit while you're ahead.

Never been owned on this topic.

Thanks.

Its irrefutable.

[PeterMP]

I was talking about tv dinners and frozen foods, which come in plastic trays, which the directions say, cook in the tray. I did not say one thing about cooking with plastic pots and pans lol. Geez....have you never heard of a Hungry Man dinner before?

Yes and what I'm saying is that you can take them out of the plastic trays.

[Ken]

Do you even know what intravenious means?

In a vein?

I realize that vaccines are shot into muscle, but it is in the bloodstream.....

Your point?

[PeterMP]

In a vein?

I realize that vaccines are shot into muscle, but it is in the bloodstream.....

Your point?

My point is that there is a HUGE difference between something given intraveinously and intramuscular.

[Ken]

Nice scientific method utilization there. You never fail to impress, my friend.

Great.

Go back and read your text book produced by the Pharmaceutical companies....

I'm sure that is completely unbiased information there....