Rivals.com: Tim Tebow not looking good in Senior Bowl practice

[JaimeDeCurry]

He's a good SPREAD quarterback, man.

Fixed that for you

He spent his entire college career in a system that might as well have been tailor-made just to fit his strengths and mask or eliminate his weaknesses. That won't work in the NFL.

He'll have to learn to have good accuracy on intermediate routes, throw quickly, make pre-snap reads, play-action from under center and then reacquire the defense and make a play...all things he's never done before. ESPN tried to get a scout to make a call on him and they said probably a 5th rounder.

He's just not set up to have success in the NFL.

[bird_1972]

He's a good quarterback, man. You don't have the success he's had throwing the ball in the SEC by sucking, that's what most people don't seem to realize.

JC played in the SEC as well.

That said, I hope he does well and if he can improve some things, I think he has all of the other intangibles to succeed.

[Chopper Dave]

Fixed that for you

He spent his entire college career in a system that might as well have been tailor-made just to fit his strengths and mask or eliminate his weaknesses. That won't work in the NFL.

He'll have to learn to have good accuracy on intermediate routes, throw quickly, make pre-snap reads, play-action from under center and then reacquire the defense and make a play...all things he's never done before. ESPN tried to get a scout to make a call on him and they said probably a 5th rounder.

He's just not set up to have success in the NFL.

You contradict yourself in your second sentence. That can work in the NFL, and it has. Look at Drew Brees. People adjust. You're insane if you think he CAN'T succeed. You're insane if you're not 50/50 on the prospect of him at QB before he gets selected by somebody, because very honestly, his chances for success at QB depend pretty much entirely on where he goes. He's got the physical tools, he's got the intangibles, and he's got the willingness to conform and change what he needs to conform and change. He just needs the right coaching and the right system. Jacksonville, which is probably the only team that would take him in the 1st, is a surprisingly good fit. Philly is probably the best fit. Here would be a terrible fit. So would Seattle and Minnesota. It just depends where he goes.

[JaimeDeCurry]

You contradict yourself in your second sentence. That can work in the NFL, and it has. Look at Drew Brees.

Brees has amazing vision, a very quick release, and throws one of the prettiest passes in football. Tebow has none of these.

And comparing the spread offense that Drew Brees played in to the spread-option that Tebow played in is inadvisable.

[Chopper Dave]

JC played in the SEC as well.

That said, I hope he does well and if he can improve some things, I think he has all of the other intangibles to succeed.

And JC doesn't suck, in the scheme of things. It's not like there's a fine line between sucking and Peyton Manning.

[Hooper]

I don't expect much from him as a QB, looks like he might be a little better than Eric Crouch.

Exactly.

I'm not a Tebow hater. I get why people love him.

But I just don't see him making it as a NFL QB.

[Chopper Dave]

Brees has amazing vision, a very quick release, and throws one of the prettiest passes in football. Tebow has none of these.

And comparing the spread offense that Drew Brees played in to the spread-option that Tebow played in is inadvisable.

It's not really a comparison, though I will say neither of us know enough to comment on the vision of either player, so please, don't try, and Tebow also throws a very pretty ball.

The fact of the matter is, the spread is relatively new, but it's incredibly widespread, in all of its various iterations, and the whole "spread QBs can't succeed in the NFL" argument just doesn't hold water anymore, because it can't; eventually spread QBs and the NFL will meet each other halfway out of necessity. There's no reason that can't happen with Tebow, because everything good about him is stuff you can't teach, like arm strength, athleticism, leadership, etc., and almost everything wrong with him can be corrected, like reading defenses, poor mechanics, etc. And please, don't come back with "well he's inaccurate," because either you know that's a load of ****, or you haven't really watched him play all that much.

Again, I'm not saying he will be a successful NFL QB. To say so with any certainty would be hasty. Likewise, to declare his QB career DOA is equally, if not more hasty.

[JaimeDeCurry]

It's not really a comparison, though I will say neither of us know enough to comment on the vision of either player, so please, don't try, and Tebow also throws a very pretty ball.

The fact of the matter is, the spread is relatively new, but it's incredibly widespread, in all of its various iterations, and the whole "spread QBs can't succeed in the NFL" argument just doesn't hold water anymore, because it can't; eventually spread QBs and the NFL will meet each other halfway out of necessity. There's no reason that can't happen with Tebow, because everything good about him is stuff you can't teach, like arm strength, athleticism, leadership, etc., and almost everything wrong with him can be corrected, like reading defenses, poor mechanics, etc. And please, don't come back with "well he's inaccurate," because either you know that's a load of ****, or you haven't really watched him play all that much.

Again, I'm not saying he will be a successful NFL QB. To say so with any certainty would be hasty. Likewise, to declare his QB career DOA is equally, if not more hasty.

He does have great arms strength, and he does throw a very nice deep ball. It's the intermediate stuff - the bread and butter of today's offenses - that he's shown trouble with pretty consistently against good defenses. He's been surrounded by superior talent his entire college career, and was in a system that he was pretty much born to play in. None of that is going to happen in the NFL. He's an absolutely tremendous athlete, but not a very good quarterback.

Am I saying the CAN'T survive in the NFL and be successful? No. I'm just saying that all his actual quarterbacking traits point to the fact that he won't.

[Commander Adama]

When searching for old pre-draft profiles of VY's pro's and cons, found this article from last August on walterfootball entitled "The Vince Young Lesson". Thought it was great:

http://walterfootball.com/mattblog090810.php

What do you really call VY at this point?

Hahaha love this quote:

Don't buy into the Colt McCoy/Tim Tebow/Dan LeFevour hype going into the 2010 NFL Draft. They rely on their mobility, run spread option offenses, lack footwork proficiency, are heavily hyped by the media, and have inflated statistics in the passing game.

[skinsfan23]

Does this even belong in the Stadium? Should be around the NFL as it has nothing to do with the Redskins (seeing that we won't draft him).

who cares what forum its in. i mean if you dont like the title of the thread, then dont click on it and read it. i understand the site needs to be somewhat organized, but im tired of reading posts about people who want something moved or telling others to use the search function. i swear people have thousands of post and half of them are not even commenting on the subject matter of the thread. hah which i am doing right now but still.

[Chopper Dave]

He does have great arms strength, and he does throw a very nice deep ball. It's the intermediate stuff - the bread and butter of today's offenses - that he's shown trouble with pretty consistently against good defenses. He's been surrounded by superior talent his entire college career, and was in a system that he was pretty much born to play in. None of that is going to happen in the NFL. He's an absolutely tremendous athlete, but not a very good quarterback.

Am I saying the CAN'T survive in the NFL and be successful? No. I'm just saying that all his actual quarterbacking traits point to the fact that he won't.

See, you know, everyone says that he has trouble with the intermediate stuff, but the way I figure, there must be some fluke scouting report floating around amongst the community of his detractors who haven't actually watched him that much. I've seen every game he's ever played. I was at roughly half of them. Sure, his intermediate accuracy leaves a bit to be desired. So does Donovan McNabb's. Guess what? So did Drew Brees for a while there. He's more accurate than advertised. I mean, at least we're at the point where the anti-Tebow crowd can acknowledge his arm strength, because for a few months there, that was in question also.

Additionally, you state that he was surrounded by superior talent and in a system tailored to him perfectly. Ok, fine. I'll cede you those points. However, I would also like to point out a couple of things in regard to this. First, concerning the superior level of talent. When he gets to the NFL, he will still be surrounded by the best talent around. Obviously. However, no, he probably won't have quite the relative level of talent around him. That's where my whole point about what team he goes to making all the difference comes into play. If he goes to the Bills and starts as a rookie, he's screwed. If he goes to the Eagles, and sits behind McNabb, and has a great supporting cast, and a great coaching staff, he could absolutely succeed. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he thrives and becomes an all-pro in a situation like that.

As far as the system goes, I would counter with the fact that he put up all-time great stats and ended his career with a 48-7 record in this system. So if the system was a 100% perfect fit, even a system that's only a 50% fit could yield pretty decent results if he is coached properly and molded into an NFL caliber QB.

Edit: OK, after doing the math, maybe 50% is a bad number to use, bringing his record under .500. It's an irrelevant number used for the sake of argument anyway, so just pretend I used a larger number. Point is, he doesn't need a "system he was pretty much born to play in." Not only that, but if you look, Meyer's system is versatile. It was different under Chris Leak than it was Tebow. Of course he was born to play in it; it was designed around his strengths. Playing for a smart, adaptable coach should not be looked at as a weakness.

[Newera]

Geez, one practice and he sucks. Let's see how he looks Saturday. People have no patience about anything. They were saying the same thing about Vince Young.

[Mufumonk]

This will be the most scrutinized kid to ever come out of college. I mean come on its his first day and people are saying he doesn't look good because he fumbled a snap under center and had so called "bad mechanics" when throwing some balls. I praise him for even going to the senior bowl cause he didnt need to. Most top players avoid that livestock show because they want to impress scouts at the combine. Clausen, Bradford, McCoy, all not playing. Give the guy a chance to adjust before you label him folks.

If anyone needed to go it was Tebow. He needs all the practice he can get with NFL coaches.

[Chopper Dave]

If anyone needed to go it was Tebow. He needs all the practice he can get with NFL coaches.

Agreed, although it's just a week. He doesn't necessarily need it to benefit from the coaching, he needs it to show NFL coaches and scouts that he can improve with coaching.

[JaimeDeCurry]

See, you know, everyone says that he has trouble with the intermediate stuff, but the way I figure, there must be some fluke scouting report floating around amongst the community of his detractors who haven't actually watched him that much. I've seen every game he's ever played. I was at roughly half of them. Sure, his intermediate accuracy leaves a bit to be desired. So does Donovan McNabb's. Guess what? So did Drew Brees for a while there. He's more accurate than advertised. I mean, at least we're at the point where the anti-Tebow crowd can acknowledge his arm strength, because for a few months there, that was in question also.

Additionally, you state that he was surrounded by superior talent and in a system tailored to him perfectly. Ok, fine. I'll cede you those points. However, I would also like to point out a couple of things in regard to this. First, concerning the superior level of talent. When he gets to the NFL, he will still be surrounded by the best talent around. Obviously. However, no, he probably won't have quite the relative level of talent around him. That's where my whole point about what team he goes to making all the difference comes into play. If he goes to the Bills and starts as a rookie, he's screwed. If he goes to the Eagles, and sits behind McNabb, and has a great supporting cast, and a great coaching staff, he could absolutely succeed. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he thrives and becomes an all-pro in a situation like that.

As far as the system goes, I would counter with the fact that he put up all-time great stats and ended his career with a 48-7 record in this system. So if the system was a 100% perfect fit, even a system that's only a 50% fit could yield pretty decent results if he is coached properly and molded into an NFL caliber QB.

Edit: OK, after doing the math, maybe 50% is a bad number to use, bringing his record under .500. It's an irrelevant number used for the sake of argument anyway, so just pretend I used a larger number. Point is, he doesn't need a "system he was pretty much born to play in." Not only that, but if you look, Meyer's system is versatile. It was different under Chris Leak than it was Tebow. Of course he was born to play in it; it was designed around his strengths. Playing for a smart, adaptable coach should not be looked at as a weakness.

He set the SEC record for most rushing touchdowns. As a quarterback. 52 rushing touchdowns.

In case you missed that, he set the all-time SEC record for rushing touchdowns, beating the great Herschel Walker. Which would make me drool at the thought of drafting him, except for the fact that...you know...he's a quarterback. Not a running back. Last year he had more rushing attempts than pass completions, and 40% of his career touchdowns are rushing touchdowns. He's Pat White on steroids.

From NFL Draft Scout on his performance in Senior Bowl practices:"Tim Tebow's struggles during the first day of Senior Bowl practices on Monday provided little evidence that he can turn his collegiate accolades and rock star status into NFL success."

"Tebow...sprayed balls high and outside on deep outs and forced receivers to alter their routes to make the catch. Tebow also struggled with the exchange from center and in dropping back. He fumbled a few snaps early and was slow in getting depth from the line of scrimmage. On a positive note, he made it a point to remain in the pocket and scan the field for secondary options when his initial read was covered. Too often, however, Tebow elected to check down and toss the ball to his backs for minimal gains."

From Walter Football: "Strengths: Muscular build and great bulk ... Solid arm strength ... Very good accuracy on the deep ball ... Great feel for a pass rush and has a great mental clock of when to step out of the pocket ... Athletic enough; can pick up the first down with his legs ... Powerful runner ... Good character and strong work ethic."

"Weaknesses: Absolutely horrendous footwork ... Plays in a run-option offense and it will take him 2-3 years to learn an NFL offense ... Horrible touch on the football, which is difficult to catch ... Nice accuracy on the deep ball, but it's very inconsistent in the intermediate routes ... Extremely long release ... Shown no improvement in his mechanics over his career ... Locks on to primary receivers all the time ... Speed at wide receiver made a lot of his throws look better than they actually were."

"Summary: Tim Tebow lacks the basic precision passing qualities for what it takes to be an NFL quarterback, and as of now I'm giving him a fourth-round draft grade ... Needs to improve mechanics drastically ... Transition to being an NFL signal caller should take some time ... Needs to be more of a calm/cool/collected leader on the field rather than being so emotional ... Second halves against Michigan and LSU showed Tebow's great flaws when they neutralized the run option and forced him to be a pocket quarterback ... He could be a solid fullback in the NFL with his running style if it doesn't work out at quarterback."

So basically, what everyone has always said. Absolutely tremendous athlete, not a very tremendous quarterback.

[ArmchairRedskin]

Reminds me of what everyone said about Vince Young.

Wrong. Vince Young has a 3/4 throwing motion with a quick release. He didn't operate much from under center in college, but he hasn't had much problem adjusting. Vince Young is in a whole different class from Tebow. VY doesn't flutter his passes and he's actually pretty accurate. Moreso than Tebow for sure.

The only substantial knock on VY coming out was that wonderlic score.

[Spartacus87]

One of Tebow's major issues that isn't fixable through coaching: his super slow release. A QB coach can try and improve his mechanics and footwork (even though Leoffler tried doing that this past year while Tebow was still at UF and nothing changed, while Brantley improved dramatically), and Tebow could clean some of that up.

But you either have a quick release, or you don't. Tebow's release is so slow that his passing is only effective when he has a completely clean pocket for a few seconds to throw the ball.

This past season, when he played LSU, Mississippi State, Tennessee, and especially Alabama, his passing game was almost completely negated by the pressure defenses those teams were running. His release point allows defenders extra time to react and take away throwing lanes or bat the ball down, or just force him into bad decisions within the pocket (like in the Mississippi State game).

That release and long windup of his is what's going to eventually be the end of his career as a starting QB prospect. The fact that he takes multiple extra steps in a 3 step drop and has accuracy issues on intermediate and deep balls is just on top of that (which ties into his lack of arm strength on those passes).

His will power isn't going to change the things he's just not good at for the NFL level.

[darrelgreenie]

Needs to be more of a calm/cool/collected leader on the field rather than being so emotional ...

No reputable professional scout uses terms like 'horrendous' and 'horrible' to describe a prospect.

The part about questioning his leadership style is downright laughable.

[Spartacus87]

Wrong. Vince Young has a 3/4 throwing motion with a quick release. He didn't operate much from under center in college, but he hasn't had much problem adjusting. Vince Young is in a whole different class from Tebow. VY doesn't flutter his passes and he's actually pretty accurate. Moreso than Tebow for sure.

The only substantial knock on VY coming out was that wonderlic score.

True.

Vince Young's knocks were that people thought he was dumb as rocks and he was just going to be a scrambler in the NFL. His accuracy and release were always pretty good.

It's also not a fair comparison because Young's athletic traits translate better to the NFL than Tebow's. Young's quick enough to pick up decent yards on the ground and make some guys miss. Tebow's all about just running through people.

[JaimeDeCurry]

No reputable professional scout uses terms like 'horrendous' and 'horrible' to describe a prospect.

The part about questioning his leadership style is downright laughable.

Take from it what you will. I didn't write it. Walter Football seems to be one of the better draft sites out there, but to each their own opinion. Would words like "marginal" and "less-than-ideal" been better?

[Chopper Dave]

He set the SEC record for most rushing touchdowns. As a quarterback. 52 rushing touchdowns.

In case you missed that, he set the all-time SEC record for rushing touchdowns, beating the great Herschel Walker. Which would make me drool at the thought of drafting him, except for the fact that...you know...he's a quarterback. Not a running back. Last year he had more rushing attempts than pass completions, and 40% of his career touchdowns are rushing touchdowns. He's Pat White on steroids.

From NFL Draft Scout on his performance in Senior Bowl practices:"Tim Tebow's struggles during the first day of Senior Bowl practices on Monday provided little evidence that he can turn his collegiate accolades and rock star status into NFL success."

"Tebow...sprayed balls high and outside on deep outs and forced receivers to alter their routes to make the catch. Tebow also struggled with the exchange from center and in dropping back. He fumbled a few snaps early and was slow in getting depth from the line of scrimmage. On a positive note, he made it a point to remain in the pocket and scan the field for secondary options when his initial read was covered. Too often, however, Tebow elected to check down and toss the ball to his backs for minimal gains."

From Walter Football: "Strengths: Muscular build and great bulk ... Solid arm strength ... Very good accuracy on the deep ball ... Great feel for a pass rush and has a great mental clock of when to step out of the pocket ... Athletic enough; can pick up the first down with his legs ... Powerful runner ... Good character and strong work ethic."

"Weaknesses: Absolutely horrendous footwork ... Plays in a run-option offense and it will take him 2-3 years to learn an NFL offense ... Horrible touch on the football, which is difficult to catch ... Nice accuracy on the deep ball, but it's very inconsistent in the intermediate routes ... Extremely long release ... Shown no improvement in his mechanics over his career ... Locks on to primary receivers all the time ... Speed at wide receiver made a lot of his throws look better than they actually were."

"Summary: Tim Tebow lacks the basic precision passing qualities for what it takes to be an NFL quarterback, and as of now I'm giving him a fourth-round draft grade ... Needs to improve mechanics drastically ... Transition to being an NFL signal caller should take some time ... Needs to be more of a calm/cool/collected leader on the field rather than being so emotional ... Second halves against Michigan and LSU showed Tebow's great flaws when they neutralized the run option and forced him to be a pocket quarterback ... He could be a solid fullback in the NFL with his running style if it doesn't work out at quarterback."

So basically, what everyone has always said. Absolutely tremendous athlete, not a very tremendous quarterback.

First, to respond to the only thing in your last post that YOU (maybe) wrote, I'll say that it's pretty much certifiably bat**** crazy to denigrate a guy's skills because he broke the all-time rushing TD record of one of the greatest running backs of to ever play football, while not at the RB position.

You are LITERALLY just taking one negative scouting report and repeating it. Not only that, you did this, and then basically ignored the summary. Not only THAT, but all of your previously expressed views seem to come from this scouting report.

Any idiot can read the contents of a website and regurgitate it nearly verbatim onto another website.

Also, I don't really think anyone is debating that he had a bad first day. However, you seem content to make your irrational judgement based on whatever "information" confirms your already set viewpoint, so there's no point really discussing it with you. It's like I'm arguing that red delicious apples make good apple juice, and you're arguing that apple juice ****ing sucks. OK, you're mind is obviously made up. Congrats. I hope he proves you wrong, although I'm not so sure a lack of total omniscience on your part doesn't already do that.

And Sparty, you're once again confusing slow with low. The speed of the release isn't the problem, though of course you always want to quicken it. It's where it comes down to that is the main problem. Additionally, it was more our piss-poor OL play at times this season that allowed defenses to get us out of rhythm. Nevertheless, you are probably right in that if he doesn't succeed, it will absolutely be because of his release.

[JaimeDeCurry]

First, to respond to the only thing in your last post that YOU (maybe) wrote, I'll say that it's pretty much certifiably bat**** crazy to denigrate a guy's skills because he broke the all-time rushing TD record of one of the greatest running backs of all time, while not at the RB position.

You are LITERALLY just taking one negative scouting report and repeating it. Not only that, you did this, and then basically ignored the summary. Not only THAT, but all of your previously expressed views seem to come from this scouting report.

Any idiot can read the contents of a website and regurgitate it nearly verbatim onto another website.

Also, I don't really think anyone is debating that he had a bad first day. However, you seem content to make your irrational judgement based on whatever "information" confirms your already set viewpoint, so there's no point really discussing it with. It's like I'm arguing that red delicious apples make good apple juice, and you're arguing that apple juice ****ing sucks. OK, you're mind is obviously made up. Congrats. I hope he proves you wrong, although I'm not so sure a lack of total omniscience on your part doesn't already do that.

I invite you to take a meander through the various draft websites out there. All of them are saying the same thing, my blue-and-orange clad friend. As have numerous other people on this board. I guess we just happened to all stumble upon that ONE scouting report that paints him as a not-so-great quarterback prospect? I'm a huge SEC fan, and watching many of Florida's games this year told me exactly what to think of Tebow is a pro QB prospect. Don't blame me for the fact that pretty much every scout out there agrees, and has for some time.

And as for breaking the all-time rushing touchdown record...I fail to comprehend how you can't see why that may be a warning sign.

The guy isn't a running back, right? Did I miss something there? I'd be a lot more interested if he broke a record related to quarterbacking...passing yards, passing touchdowns, yards per attempt. I'd be even more interested if he did it in something even remotely resembling a pro-style offense. You said it yourself - he broke the rushing TD record of one of the greatest running backs in the history of the game. That seriously doesn't throw up a red flag?

Nobody can knock on Tebow's athleticism, work ethic, leadership abilities, or heart. But those things don't make a good quarterback. A good quarterback possesses many of those traits, but those traits don't make up for a slow release, inaccurate passing, and all the other things you claim I stole from just about every draft report on Terrific Tim.

[Chopper Dave]

I invite you to take a meander through the various draft websites out there. All of them are saying the same thing, my blue-and-orange clad friend. As have numerous other people on this board. I guess we just happened to all stumble upon that ONE scouting report that paints him as a not-so-great quarterback prospect? I'm a huge SEC fan, and watching many of Florida's games this year told me exactly what to think of Tebow is a pro QB prospect. Don't blame me for the fact that pretty much every scout out there agrees, and has for some time.

And as for breaking the all-time rushing touchdown record...I fail to comprehend how you can't see why that may be a warning sign.

The guy isn't a running back, right? Did I miss something there? I'd be a lot more interested if he broke a record related to quarterbacking...passing yards, passing touchdowns, yards per attempt. I'd be even more interested if he did it in something even remotely resembling a pro-style offense. You said it yourself - he broke the rushing TD record of one of the greatest running backs in the history of the game. That seriously doesn't throw up a red flag?

Nobody can knock on Tebow's athleticism, work ethic, leadership abilities, or heart. But those things don't make a good quarterback. A good quarterback possesses many of those traits, but those traits don't make up for a slow release, inaccurate passing, and all the other things you claim I stole from just about every draft report on Terrific Tim.

It really doesn't throw up a red flag. It shouldn't. He played in a spread option offense. It speaks to his athleticism. I don't think I've ever claimed that the system did him any favors in the realm of NFL readiness.

Again, it's quite obvious your mind is made up. You mention numerous scouting reports, yet you only reference one, and even its summary disproves your point.

You want to write him off before he even gets drafted, who cares? You're just some guy. Like I said before, I'd like to see him prove you wrong, however your lack of a valid premise does that for him.

And he's not inaccurate. Eventually the peanut gallery will send that bogus theory wherever it sent the bogus theory about his arm strength.

[Larry]

JC played in the SEC as well.

How did he do there?

[RocketCitySkins]

How did he do there?

Comparing apples to oranges? Totally different system. Run first, power backs. You know. The same system Gibbs drafted JC to run.