Eugene Robinson: Harry Reid's comments were crudely put, yet true

[Seabee1973]

What does that have to do with the price of tea in china? The point I was making is that race is not the reason to choose a President since we have so many different types of people from so many different backgrounds that you could never truly represent the country racially no matter what you did so how about we choose a President based on his credentials and who he is as a person? If Obama was white, he never would have gotten passed Hilary! Its sad but its true. I cant stand Hilary. I think Obama is doing about as good of a job as he could (I am Republican and I do not think McCain could have done much better with the hand he was dealt). He just would not be our president if he was a white man.

It amazes me at the amount of people i encountered that just voted for him so that america could have its first Black president.

Then right after the tiger woods scandel broke one of the polling things did a poll and asked people that voted for Obama if they would have voted for him if his wife was white it was about think it was about 55 percent said no. So Race did play a major factor the last presidentail election

I just wonder how many people would have voted for him if they new he wasnt half black as claimed

[Seabee1973]

And what is that, exactly? I voted for him. I vote for who I think the best leader is....If you can explain why he wasn't the best ticket, i'd love to hear it.

quite a few people voted for him because of the chance to have a "black" president

[alexey]

It amazes me at the amount of people i encountered that just voted for him so that america could have its first Black president.

Then right after the tiger woods scandel broke one of the polling things did a poll and asked people that voted for Obama if they would have voted for him if his wife was white it was about think it was about 55 percent said no. So Race did play a major factor the last presidentail election

I just wonder how many people would have voted for him if they new he wasnt half black as claimed

You are making your conclusion based on the people you encountered and one of the polling things. Do you have any numbers that we can actually discuss, maybe something with a traceable source?

From Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2008

African American turnout increased from 11.1% of the electorate in 2004 to 13.0% in 2008.

Per wiki this was also highest voter turnout since 1960 or 1968... In terms of total votes:

Obama: 69,456,897 votes, 52.9%, 365 electoral votes

McCain: 59,934,814 votes 45.7%, 173 electoral votes

So let's say Obama won Virginia, North Carolina, and Florida just because he's black. Let's remove the racial factor and give those states back to McCain. That's 55 more electoral votes for McCain. That would result in Obama win with 310 electoral votes to McCain's 228. Okay, let's say Ohio and Colorado join the list. That's 29 more electoral votes for McCain. The score is now 279 for Obama and 257 for McCain. Obama still wins. To recap - in our hypothetical we gave McCain 5 more states and Obama still won.

Now, I won't deny that race played a role in the last election. We can discuss what kind of a role it played. I want to make sure we're on the same page about the numbers behind Obama's victory. Numbers do not provide any reasonable ground for attributing his victory to his backness.

Here is another interesting chart, relative swinging of states from GOP to Dem from 2004 to 2008:

[LaxBuddy21]

Alexey, Just to be clear, I think any Democrat was going to win the general election. Obama would have never gotten past Hilary had he been white. Him being black is what put him into a position to run against McCain and having the country be so ticked at the Republicans put him into office. He is inexperienced to the highest degree and would not have gotten as far as he did if he had not been black. I am glad he won over Hilary but I still dont think he would have if he was a white guy.

[Burgold]

Obama would have never gotten past Hilary had he been white. Him being black is what put him into a position to run against McCain ... He is inexperienced to the highest degree and would not have gotten as far as he did if he had not been black. I am glad he won over Hilary but I still dont think he would have if he was a white guy.

Boy, your statement makes Jesse Jackson feel very sad. Just to think all you have to be is black and you're a slam dunk for the Presidency and he couldn't even make it to the Final Four in three attempts.

[DjTj]

Alexey, Just to be clear, I think any Democrat was going to win the general election. Obama would have never gotten past Hilary had he been white. Him being black is what put him into a position to run against McCain and having the country be so ticked at the Republicans put him into office. He is inexperienced to the highest degree and would not have gotten as far as he did if he had not been black. I am glad he won over Hilary but I still dont think he would have if he was a white guy.

meh, Hillary wouldn't have been the frontrunner if she weren't a woman (and a former First Lady). McCain wouldn't have gotten to where he is if he wasn't the son of an Admiral shot down in Vietnam. Bush never would have been elected if he wasn't the son of a former President. Bill Clinton never would have been President if he wasn't from a town called Hope in Arkansas. George H.W. Bush ... maybe he earned it. Ronald Reagan would never have been President if he wasn't an actor from California. Jimmy Carter a peanut farmer from Georgia. The taller Presidential candidate has won most elections in the TV era.

There are a million different personal attributes that help contribute to a political career. Why should Obama's race be any different?

[alexey]

Alexey, Just to be clear, I think any Democrat was going to win the general election. Obama would have never gotten past Hilary had he been white. Him being black is what put him into a position to run against McCain and having the country be so ticked at the Republicans put him into office. He is inexperienced to the highest degree and would not have gotten as far as he did if he had not been black. I am glad he won over Hilary but I still dont think he would have if he was a white guy.

I can just as easily claim that his blackness hurt him more than it helped him, that he won primaries despite being black, or that Clinton's women canceled out his blacks, etc, etc.

I just don't see any sense in talking about this in vague terms. If you want to talk about specific states, do voter breakdowns, things like that - be my guest. If you want to make statements like "he would not have gotten as far as he did" - well there is not much to talk about there. There is no way of knowing that. Maybe he would, maybe he would not. Points can be made either way. That's all I can say about that.

Heck, maybe he had to work harder because he was black, and work ethic led him to this point. Maybe feeling an attachment to the black community led him into community organizing, which gave him skills necessary to win in 2008? Maybe being black helped him get interested in American History when he was 7, and Constitutional Law when he was 13? There is just no way to isolate the effect of his blackness. Do you know what I mean?

Now, I will take up an issue with your statement on experience. Obama has been a legislator for over 11 years prior to his election in 2008. He was in Illinois senate 1997-2004 and a US Senator 2005-2008. I think it would be more ethical for you to specify that you are not counting legislative experience.

[LaxBuddy21]

meh, Hillary wouldn't have been the frontrunner if she weren't a woman (and a former First Lady). McCain wouldn't have gotten to where he is if he wasn't the son of an Admiral shot down in Vietnam. Bush never would have been elected if he wasn't the son of a former President. Bill Clinton never would have been President if he wasn't from a town called Hope in Arkansas. George H.W. Bush ... maybe he earned it. Ronald Reagan would never have been President if he wasn't an actor from California. Jimmy Carter a peanut farmer from Georgia. The taller Presidential candidate has won most elections in the TV era.

There are a million different personal attributes that help contribute to a political career. Why should Obama's race be any different?

Hilary getting where she was because she is a woman is just as much of a joke. At least Military service has some merit when it comest to being a president. Who your family is is just as bad too. At least Bush had some real political background. Obama got elected with nothing but the color of his skin and the D next to his name. He beat Hilary because of the skin color and beat McCain because of the D. To think otherwise is naive and chances are you think differently because you are trying to justify your own vote and pretend it was something more than one of those two things. For some people it was but for the majority it wasnt.

[LaxBuddy21]

I can just as easily claim that his blackness hurt him more than it helped him, that he won primaries despite being black, or that Clinton's women canceled out his blacks, etc, etc.

I just don't see any sense in talking about this in vague terms. If you want to talk about specific states, do voter breakdowns, things like that - be my guest. If you want to make statements like "he would not have gotten as far as he did" - well there is not much to talk about there. There is no way of knowing that. Maybe he would, maybe he would not. Points can be made either way. That's all I can say about that.

Heck, maybe he had to work harder because he was black, and work ethic led him to this point. Maybe feeling an attachment to the black community led him into community organizing, which gave him skills necessary to win in 2008? Maybe being black helped him get interested in American History when he was 7, and Constitutional Law when he was 13? There is just no way to isolate the effect of his blackness. Do you know what I mean?

Now, I will take up an issue with your statement on experience. Obama has been a legislator for over 11 years prior to his election in 2008. He was in Illinois senate 1997-2004 and a US Senator 2005-2008. I think it would be more ethical for you to specify that you are not counting legislative experience.

There is not more to talk about. The man barely beat Hilary. If his skin is white, he loses a lot of the minority vote plus the white sympathy vote. With that lost, he does not win the primary and does not get a shot to be president. I really want to know how you could possibly think anything different?

[Mooka]

There is not more to talk about. The man barely beat Hilary. If his skin is white, he loses a lot of the minority vote plus the white sympathy vote. With that lost, he does not win the primary and does not get a shot to be president. I really want to know how you could possibly think anything different?

Because Obama has plenty of good qualities that helped him win the election and you're focusing on his skin color like the people you criticize.

And you're making blanket statements based on his skin color as well, like he loses the minority vote, and this white sympathy vote you just made up out of thin air. A white democrat can win the minority vote.

[81artmonk]

I have two issues with what he said. Many have already pointed them out. One being the blatant double standard. Had a repub said what he said, there would be calls for them to step down. Racist would have been tossed around too.

The other is attached to the double standard. One side becuase they appear to be for one race tend to get the benefit of the doubt when saying something.

If Rush Limbaugh said this same comment, all hell would be coming down upon his head. No matter how true the statement would have been.

Only certian individuals or groups are allowed to speak so openly (regardless of how dumb it may be) without consequence, while others are chastised by race or catagory and aren't allowed to get away, so to speak with such talk.

IMO it's why racebased debate will never be open and honest.

[alexey]

There is not more to talk about. The man barely beat Hilary. If his skin is white, he loses a lot of the minority vote plus the white sympathy vote. With that lost, he does not win the primary and does not get a shot to be president. I really want to know how you could possibly think anything different?

I can tell you what I think. You did not provide a supporting argument to discuss or refute. You provided a general statement which, conveniently enough, can be used to add a racial overtone to any Obama vote. Minority? Yep. White guy? Sympathy vote. How convenient!

Let me give you an example of how I think. This is the vote breakdown in Iowa. Iowa, as you may know, held caucuses first and gave Obama some very valuable early momentum:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iowa_Democratic_caucuses,_2008

Barack Obama scored a major victory in the Iowa Democratic Caucuses due to a number of factors. According to exit polls, 93 percent of voters in the Iowa Democratic Caucus were Caucasian and 33 percent voted for Obama, 27 percent for Clinton, and 24 percent for Edwards; 4 percent of voters were African American and 72 percent voted for Obama, 16 percent for Clinton, and 8 percent for Edwards; 3 percent represented other races and they went 49 percent for Obama, 26 percent for Clinton, 10 percent for Richardson, and 5 percent for Edwards. Obama also won young voters ages 17-44 with 52 percent of the vote compared to 16 percent for both Clinton and Edwards. Edwards won middle-age voters ages 45-59 with 30 percent while Obama received 29 percent and Clinton took in 26 percent of their support. Clinton did best among elderly voters ages 60 and over with 40 percent of the vote while Edwards received 27 percent and Obama took in 19.5 percent of their support. Obama won self-identified Democrats by a margin of 32-31-23 (Obama-Clinton-Edwards), Independents backed Obama 41-23-17 (Obama-Edwards-Clinton), as well as self-identified Republicans who supported Obama 44-32-10 (Obama-Edwards-Clinton). Obama also won moderates and liberals but Edwards won conservatives. Socioeconomic class was not really a factor in how voters made their decisions, as Obama won all groups of family incomes.

Obama performed best in Eastern Iowa, which is considered to be the more liberal part of the state, and Central Iowa which is considered to be the more moderate part of the state. Clinton performed best in Western Iowa, which is considered to be the most conservative part of the state.

Now, by looking at those numbers and relating them to your point, I'd say that either the "sympathy" vote is strongest in the 17-44 age group, or that you're wrong as far as Iowa is concerned.

If you'd like, we can examine this further by looking at other states. We could also explore the definition of a "sympathy vote" and discuss methods we could use to estimate the role that they played.

The "minority" aspect of your point may be relevant to South Carolina, for example. However, as polls show, Clinton actually had a sizable lead there in November and December, but it was falling after the Iowa primary. We can talk about that too, if you'd like.

[mcsluggo]

I have two issues with what he said. Many have already pointed them out. One being the blatant double standard. Had a repub said what he said, there would be calls for them to step down. Racist would have been tossed around too.

The other is attached to the double standard. One side becuase they appear to be for one race tend to get the benefit of the doubt when saying something.

If Rush Limbaugh said this same comment, all hell would be coming down upon his head. No matter how true the statement would have been.

Only certian individuals or groups are allowed to speak so openly (regardless of how dumb it may be) without consequence, while others are chastised by race or catagory and aren't allowed to get away, so to speak with such talk.

IMO it's why racebased debate will never be open and honest.

fair enough observation... but that factor it isn't just limited to race based issues, it is true for MANY issues. THe race ones just stick in your craw more.

if a gung-ho former general made a statement tomorrow about having to pull out of certain parts of afghanistan, and focus in other areas, he would likely be listened to, and labeled pragmatic. If Ron Paul or Barney Frank made the same statement they would be lambasted by many as pansies and all sorts of Neville Chamberlain quotes would hit the airwaves. Once you have built credibility in an area, your remarks are viewed in the context of your history of work in the area.

YOUR example, Rush Limbaugh, has built HIS credibility on race issues from previous statements as well. It is credible to believe all sorts of drivel is capable of rolling out of his mouth

[SonnySide]

obama attended a racist church for 20 years.

Robert Byrd, DEMOCRAT Senator recruited people for the KKK.

Al Sharpton, Dem Party , anti-Semite

Jessie Jackson (see Al Sharpton)

Al Gore's father, voted against early drafts of Civil Rights Legislation

[Thiebear]

There is no getting around this:

From Reid himself on Trent Lott not taking the Senate Lead:

"He had no alternative," said Reid at the time claiming, "If you tell ethnic jokes in the backroom, it's that much easier to say ethnic things publicly. I've always practiced how I play."

-------------------------

There is no justification that contradicts your own words about the same seat.

[81artmonk]

fair enough observation... but that factor it isn't just limited to race based issues, it is true for MANY issues. THe race ones just stick in your craw more.

if a gung-ho former general made a statement tomorrow about having to pull out of certain parts of afghanistan, and focus in other areas, he would likely be listened to, and labeled pragmatic. If Ron Paul or Barney Frank made the same statement they would be lambasted by many as pansies and all sorts of Neville Chamberlain quotes would hit the airwaves. Once you have built credibility in an area, your remarks are viewed in the context of your history of work in the area.

YOUR example, Rush Limbaugh, has built HIS credibility on race issues from previous statements as well. It is credible to believe all sorts of drivel is capable of rolling out of his mouth

I understand what you're trying to say, but a general who knows the ins and outs of battle, is most certianly more credible than a senator who sits behind a desk and most likely hasn't seen battle.

Your observation of rush only goes to show the double standard. Reid has a history of stupid selfserving remarks, yet you would pigeon hole Rush based on his history.

[81artmonk]

obama attended a racist church for 20 years.

Robert Byrd, DEMOCRAT Senator recruited people for the KKK.

Al Sharpton, Dem Party , anti-Semite

Jessie Jackson (see Al Sharpton)

Al Gore's father, voted against early drafts of Civil Rights Legislation

Yes but none of that matters, see, because they are the party that is for the black community!

[alexey]

Yes but none of that matters, see, because they are the party that is for the black community!

Of course it matters. Everything matters. It's up to individuals to figure out how everything comes together, what is true, and what matters.

[ABQCOWBOY]

I do find the race issue in this country astounding.

I don't know why, and perhaps it's an incorrect perception on my part but, it does seem as if the Black segmant of our country is a more sensative racial segmant then any other. Not saying that Black people are more sensative, per say, I'm saying that for some reason, everybody in this country seems to be more sensative about Black people then any other segmant.

It is nothing to turn on the TV and hear black people crack jokes about white people or Hispanics or whatever. It's kind of accepted in our society. You would never hear the same kind of thing from a comic about Black people. I don't fully understand this because it doesn't seem to be the same for other ethnic groups. You can hear White people cracking on Orientals or Orientals cracking on Hispanics or Hispanics cracking on White people or any variation of this but you just don't hear black people associated in this manner.

Perhaps I am wrong about this. I am certainly open to hearing different points of view but it's interesting to me why this is? Other ethnic groups are not tabo, so to speak but it is considered in very poor taste, in our society, to engage in the same sort of rederick when it concerns Blacks people. I must confess, I don't fully understand why.

[Kilmer17]

I think we can all now agree that Obama is a wellspoken lightskinned retarded negro.

whew.

[alexey]

I do find the race issue in this country astounding.

I don't know why, and perhaps it's an incorrect perception on my part but, it does seem as if the Black segmant of our country is a more sensative racial segmant then any other. Not saying that Black people are more sensative, per say, I'm saying that for some reason, everybody in this country seems to be more sensative about Black people then any other segmant.

It is nothing to turn on the TV and hear black people crack jokes about white people or Hispanics or whatever. It's kind of accepted in our society. You would never hear the same kind of thing from a comic about Black people. I don't fully understand this because it doesn't seem to be the same for other ethnic groups. You can hear White people cracking on Orientals or Orientals cracking on Hispanics or Hispanics cracking on White people or any variation of this but you just don't hear black people associated in this manner.

Perhaps I am wrong about this. I am certainly open to hearing different points of view but it's interesting to me why this is? Other ethnic groups are not tabo, so to speak but it is considered in very poor taste, in our society, to engage in the same sort of rederick when it concerns Blacks people. I must confess, I don't fully understand why.

Well there was that whole slavery thing, and that considering blacks 3/5 of a person thing, stuff like that... that kind of stuff makes people sensitive about stuff... especially if people with first hand experiences of struggles and the injustice are still around.

[ABQCOWBOY]

I think that President Obama is one of the most important figures in American history. I don't know that he will be a great President but he is certainly important in so many other ways. If you only stop to think about the social aspects of our country, he might be the most important figure in the last 150 years. What comes of this election will have far reaching effects on our society. When this Presidency is over, people will study how and why our country voted the way they did in the last election and I believe that important lessons, as well as a deeper understanding of what we are as a nation will come of it.

I can not overstate how important this President is in this regard.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Well there was that whole slavery thing, and that considering blacks 3/5 of a person thing, stuff like that... that kind of stuff makes people sensitive about stuff... especially if people with first hand experiences of struggles and the injustice are still around.

I understand this. However, this does not explain why other minorities are not viewed in the same light. Vertually all other minorities suffered the same circumstances at one time or another. My own Great Grandfather was a slave and I am not Black. I am Hispanic. This was at the turn of the Century. The Chinese were used as slave labor, essentially, in the mid to late 1800s as well. The railroads had no regard for them. I mean, I understand the point your making but it still does not track back to other minority groups. This is the piece that is perplexing to me.

[Burgold]

I can't fully answer this, but I think that it is because there is still heavy residue left. It's not just slavery, but Jim Crow and a host of other actions. Actions that really persisted actively and was endorsed by the major society through the 70's. That means that a whole lot of people have active experience with racism and those that don't were raised by people haunted by the spectre of racism.

My Grandmother lived most of her life in Poland and managed to escape to Russia in WWII. She was Jewish. The events of those few years shaped and influenced almost every day of her life afterwards and influenced how she saw and understood things. Through her, I feel some of the same cynicisms and fears.

But I have it lucky. I'm an invisible minority. Most people don't know I'm not Christian unless I tell them. So, I am spared most of the active hostility or danger that comes from idiots. People who are black are confronted more often then they should be. I've seen it and I'm sure you have. This generates a sensitivity that is reasonable even though it is not always well-founded.

Trust is a really hard thing to regain once lost.

[ABQCOWBOY]

I can't fully answer this, but I think that it is because there is still heavy residue left. It's not just slavery, but Jim Crow and a host of other actions. Actions that really persisted actively and was endorsed by the major society through the 70's. That means that a whole lot of people have active experience with racism and those that don't were raised by people haunted by the spectre of racism.

My Grandmother lived most of her life in Poland and managed to escape to Russia in WWII. She was Jewish. The events of those few years shaped and influenced almost every day of her life afterwards and influenced how she saw and understood things. Through her, I feel some of the same cynicisms and fears.

But I have it lucky. I'm an invisible minority. Most people don't know I'm not Christian unless I tell them. So, I am spared most of the active hostility or danger that comes from idiots. People who are black are confronted more often then they should be. I've seen it and I'm sure you have. This generates a sensitivity that is reasonable even though it is not always well-founded.

Trust is a really hard thing to regain once lost.

I can't speak for other ethnic groups but I can say that even today, Hispanic minorities are still treated poorly in many, many parts of the country. Now, having said this, I believe much of why it happens falls on the shoulders of Hispanics ourselves. We could certainly be doing things better then we are today. However, having said this, it's not all on the shoulders of Hispanics. Yet, you don't see the same sort of social rules in place for Hispanics that you see for the Black Minorities. I don't know why this is but it's how our society views it.