Eugene Robinson: Harry Reid's comments were crudely put, yet true

[alexey]

I agree with you which is why friends tend to be similar in looks and character. People identify more with people that look like them but when you are voting for the President of a nation of mixed people, is that the reason to vote?

I do not think color of skin is a good enough reason to vote for somebody, just I don't think that being R or D is a good enough reason to vote for somebody... same goes for gender, age, education level, or any other single category.

Voters ought to look at everything and make an informed decision. I think it is very important for our electorate to be educated consumers.

Unfortunately there are many people out there who do not put in the effort to get properly informed and educated, who lack knowledge of the process, lack understanding of key issues, proper background information, are easily manipulated by the media, hold biased or uninformed opinions, fail to try and be fair, you name it. This stuff happens every day to millions of people of all colors and backgrounds. I just do not see why we would attach extra significance to people who voted for Obama only because of his skin color. It may have been significant if we won by a slim margin, but he did not.

[ccsl2]

I do not think color of skin is a good enough reason to vote for somebody, just I don't think that being R or D is a good enough reason to vote for somebody... same goes for gender, age, education level, or any other single category.

Voters ought to look at everything and make an informed decision. I think it is very important for our electorate to be educated consumers.

Unfortunately there are many people out there who do not put in the effort to get properly informed and educated, who lack knowledge of the process, lack understanding of key issues, proper background information, are easily manipulated by the media, hold biased or uninformed opinions, fail to try and be fair, you name it. This stuff happens every day to millions of people of all colors and backgrounds. I just do not see why we would attach extra significance to people who voted for Obama only because of his skin color. It may have been significant if we won by a slim margin, but he did not.

^^^^^^^^

What he said

[ABQCOWBOY]

To me, it is not important that he won for these reasons, if indeed it is true. To me, it is important that people are still not holding our elected officials responsible for their actions because of these reasons.

[LaxBuddy21]

I'd argue, based on the constant drama, that for some that inclusion of a menorah is a GIGANTIC deal. The Christians who don't want their display sullied and the Jews who want not to be ostracized (how's that for an unbaised interpretation)

I still think you are being overly simplistic. If one reason Obama was chosen amongst many was race than it's not a problem. If it was the sole and exclusive reason it is a problem or if it was the sole and exclusive reason plus hatred of whitey than it is obviously a problem. I think the number of people who voted for Obama exclusively because he was black despite any other mitigating factors of policy, platform, or Palin was very, very small.

Also, when I vote, I try to vote for the best possible candidate. That doesn't mean I'm voting against anybody and in fact, I'm usually not. I vote for the guy that I think will do the best job and represents what I believe needs to be done the closest. Voting for one is not hating or even disliking the other.

Minorities who dont normally vote come out in overwhelming numbers yet people didnt vote for him because he is black? The color of his skin has absolutely no bearing on what kind of President he will be and should not be a factor whether big or small. It would be like me converting to Judaism because I thought the Star of David was pretty. I ignore all the background of the religion and what they are saying versus what I believe or I marginalize it because I think the Star of David is nice.

And supporting someone because of an issue is exactly the same as not supporting someone else because of the same issue. If I vote based on abortion, voting for one candidate sends the same message as not voting for the other. I am talking about the color of his skin being the predominate reason he was voted for so not voting for the white guy because he is white sends the same message. Taking all the issues that affect what kind of president he will be and voting based on the whole picture is exactly how it should be done but its not in most cases.

[alexey]

Unemployement is at 10%

11% of Americans believe the economy is in Excellent to good condition. 46% believe it's flat out poor.

The numbers for this Administration as a whole are unbelievably worse. It's not me, per say. It's the American people who are drawing these conclusions.

These numbers certainly appear to be bad, but I understand that they can also be viewed as very good when compared to what could have been.

If things keep improving and there is no double-dip, this recovery is going down into textbooks as an example of getting things right.

Burgold covered some public opinion dynamics here:

http://www.extremeskins.com/showpost.php?p=7217374&postcount=52

[LaxBuddy21]

I do not think color of skin is a good enough reason to vote for somebody, just I don't think that being R or D is a good enough reason to vote for somebody... same goes for gender, age, education level, or any other single category.

Voters ought to look at everything and make an informed decision. I think it is very important for our electorate to be educated consumers.

Unfortunately there are many people out there who do not put in the effort to get properly informed and educated, who lack knowledge of the process, lack understanding of key issues, proper background information, are easily manipulated by the media, hold biased or uninformed opinions, fail to try and be fair, you name it. This stuff happens every day to millions of people of all colors and backgrounds. I just do not see why we would attach extra significance to people who voted for Obama only because of his skin color. It may have been significant if we won by a slim margin, but he did not.

I agree with you 100% on everything except why he won. He would have never got passed Hilary if he was white. Any Democrat probably beats McCain because of the state of the country at the time.

People really need to take the time to educate themselves on all the issues before they go out and vote. They need to not vote on single issues. They need to not vote based on rhetoric. My wife was having an argument with someone about Sarah Palin and I could tell she was just spouting off what she heard from her parents and the media about how ignorant she is. I agree she is ignorant but I confronted her and made her tell me why she was ignorant. She said because of the stuff Palin says. I asked her like what? She couldnt answer. Thats when I told her she really needs to take the time to understand things herself and make her own mind up rather than let others make her mind up for her. This happens way too often in this country and then these people go out and vote our leaders into office. Its sad.

One of my high school teachers said nothing pissed him off more than knowing that his vote was going to be cancelled out by some idiot who didnt even know what the issues are. How sad is that? You spend all your time learning and researching and go out and vote knowing exactly why you are casting your vote and Joe Smith heard something crazy on the news and is voting based on something thats not even really true yet his vote cancels yours out!

[ABQCOWBOY]

These numbers certainly appear to be bad, but I understand that they can also be viewed as very good when compared to what could have been.

If things keep improving and there is no double-dip, this recovery is going down into textbooks as an example of getting things right.

Burgold covered some public opinion dynamics here:

http://www.extremeskins.com/showpost.php?p=7217374&postcount=52

If things keep improving? I, to date, have not seen improvement. I have only seen it worsen. If this President impliments Healthcare, then I think that it will get worse. Significant tax increasse with benifits, such as they may be, not implemented until 2015? Cap and Trade is going to increase day to day cost of living significantly and there will be no identifiable results, one way or the other, that this Administration can point to as successes. Higher revenues for the Banking industry does not translate into Small Business economic relief. It translates into continued tightening of lending policies and more economic hard times. If this President doesn't get it right and I mean soon, 2010 is here and it's all over. If he doesn't get it right, the Dems will lose control of Congress and this President will be able to do nothing for the remainder of his term.

[alexey]

I agree with you 100% on everything except why he won. He would have never got passed Hilary if he was white. Any Democrat probably beats McCain because of the state of the country at the time.

It is hard to argue this point without hard data. Hillary had people who would vote for her just because she is a woman...

Certainly people who would vote for Obama because of his skin color have more statistical significance in primaries, but I'm not sure that's enough to say "would have never".

I can imagine some scenarios where McCain wins, they usually start with Hilary winning the primary and McCan making a different VP choice

People really need to take the time to educate themselves on all the issues before they go out and vote. They need to not vote on single issues. They need to not vote based on rhetoric. My wife was having an argument with someone about Sarah Palin and I could tell she was just spouting off what she heard from her parents and the media about how ignorant she is. I agree she is ignorant but I confronted her and made her tell me why she was ignorant. She said because of the stuff Palin says. I asked her like what? She couldnt answer. Thats when I told her she really needs to take the time to understand things herself and make her own mind up rather than let others make her mind up for her. This happens way too often in this country and then these people go out and vote our leaders into office. Its sad.

One of my high school teachers said nothing pissed him off more than knowing that his vote was going to be cancelled out by some idiot who didnt even know what the issues are. How sad is that? You spend all your time learning and researching and go out and vote knowing exactly why you are casting your vote and Joe Smith heard something crazy on the news and is voting based on something thats not even really true yet his vote cancels yours out!

I hear ya. It sucks. Well, that's democracy for you, whatcha gonna do.

It helps to think of those votes as all adding up to a meaningful democratic process, rather than canceling each other out

[JohnLockesGhost]

Of course there is a double standard in politics about race. If your party wanted the benefit of the doubt, they should have supported Civil Rights fifty years ago.

Yeah, because Civil Rights legislation improved the condition of black people in America so much.

[alexey]

If things keep improving? I, to date, have not seen improvement. I have only seen it worsen. If this President impliments Healthcare, then I think that it will get worse. Significant tax increasse with benifits, such as they may be, not implemented until 2015? Cap and Trade is going to increase day to day cost of living significantly and there will be no identifiable results, one way or the other, that this Administration can point to as successes. Higher revenues for the Banking industry does not translate into Small Business economic relief. It translates into continued tightening of lending policies and more economic hard times. If this President doesn't get it right and I mean soon, 2010 is here and it's all over. If he doesn't get it right, the Dems will lose control of Congress and this President will be able to do nothing for the remainder of his term.

Health care may actually look good as soon as fear goes away, "government takeover" doesn't cause the sky to fall, and people start realizing that there are important benefits there.

Cap and Trade is going to be a much harder pill to swallow. In my view it is needed and will have long term benefits, but will also be very costly politically to Dems. I hope they find the courage to pass it.

There will also be a big debate on the financial regulation overhaul. I understand that it will take place in the Spring.

My guess is that they will try to push popular agenda, if they have any, towards the Summer/Fall, not sure how that usually works in an election year.

Only time can tell what's going to be the result of Obama's economic policies.

[DjTj]

Yeah, because Civil Rights legislation improved the condition of black people in America so much.

I would argue that it certainly has, but that's not really the point. In politics, perception is more important than results.

If you took a survey and asked whether Civil Rights legislation improved the condition of black people, I think more than 90% would say yes ... the same percentage that is voting for the Democratic Party in election after election.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Health care may actually look good as soon as fear goes away, "government takeover" doesn't cause the sky to fall, and people start realizing that there are important benefits there.

Cap and Trade is going to be a much harder pill to swallow. In my view it is needed and will have long term benefits, but will also be very costly politically to Dems. I hope they find the courage to pass it.

There will also be a big debate on the financial regulation overhaul. I understand that it will take place in the Spring.

My guess is that they will try to push popular agenda, if they have any, towards the Summer/Fall, not sure how that usually works in an election year.

Only time can tell what's going to be the result of Obama's economic policies.

No way Healthcare looks good because the cost associated is going to be astronomical. The benifits, even if it is a somewhat decent plan, will not begin till 2015. It will not work for that reason alone.

Cap and Trade is a shell game. It is nothing more, IMO, then a legal right to tax the American people in a usury capacity. The effects, even if implimented are negligable. The fact that China, Russia and India will not sign on only compound the problem. There are much better ways to solve the energy problem without passing this sort of ineffective and expensive policy.

I do agree with you on the one thing thou. Time will tell.

[Burgold]

My wife was having an argument with someone about Sarah Palin and I could tell she was just spouting off what she heard from her parents and the media about how ignorant she is. I agree she is ignorant but I confronted her and made her tell me why she was ignorant. She said because of the stuff Palin says. I asked her like what? She couldnt answer.

Perhaps! Or perhaps it took her too long to process through all the things that Palin has said before choosing an example that her brain overloaded because it couldn't handle that number of data.

That was very Captain Kirk of you, Lax. You could have literally blown her mind. (or she may have just been stunned that you wanted to get into THAT argument and wasn't in the mood for an all out political skirmish who knows.)

[alexey]

No way Healthcare looks good because the cost associated is going to be astronomical. The benifits, even if it is a somewhat decent plan, will not begin till 2015. It will not work for that reason alone.

Cap and Trade is a shell game. It is nothing more, IMO, then a legal right to tax the American people in a usury capacity. The effects, even if implimented are negligable. The fact that China, Russia and India will not sign on only compound the problem. There are much better ways to solve the energy problem without passing this sort of ineffective and expensive policy.

I do agree with you on the one thing thou. Time will tell.

I am very curious to see what the public opinion on HC reform will be half a year from now. Not as curious as I am about 2010 elections, but still very very curious.

I view the Cap and Trade regulation as a push to stimulate the proper investment at home. I am more concerned about us getting ahead in next gen energy technology than I am concerned about other countries getting on board. I may be overly optimistic, but I think we can solve both economic and environmental problems by getting on the ball and putting our muscle behind energy R&D.

[Burgold]

Yeah, because Civil Rights legislation improved the condition of black people in America so much.

Well, it sure helped them when they needed to find a bathroom real quick or need a blood transfusion.

[Burgold]

If things keep improving? I, to date, have not seen improvement. I have only seen it worsen.

Last year, bank after bank was failing. The big three were about to go under. And we were inches from the entire U.S. economic system just going down for the count.

Today, banks are making a profit, the stock market has doubled from its lows, and orders are up in a wide spectrum of areas. If you can't see anything positive it's because you don't want to see it.

[JohnLockesGhost]

Well, it sure helped them when they needed to find a bathroom real quick or need a blood transfusion.

It's pretty clear how the trajectory of black people in America, going up heading into the 60s, flatlined in the 70s and 80s mostly due to the War on Poverty (ironically enough).

You know the statistics regarding: drug use, illegitimacy rates, dropout rates, unemployment, crime, and gentrification.

So I guess I don't blame the Civil Rights bill as much as the welfare crap that came after it.

[JohnLockesGhost]

Last year, bank after bank was failing. The big three were about to go under. And we were inches from the entire U.S. economic system just going down for the count.

Today, banks are making a profit, the stock market has doubled from its lows, and orders are up in a wide spectrum of areas. If you can't see anything positive it's because you don't want to see it.

Crony capitalism at its best. Will it take a "lost decade" before we realize we're just running on a treadmill?

[Burgold]

Crony capitalism at its best. Will it take a "lost decade" before we realize we're just running on a treadmill?

Perhaps. Or maybe the stimulus did exactly what it was hoped it would do. Get the patient out of critical care and strong enough that we can begin surgery.

All depends on how cynical you feel like being.

(You're probably more right than wrong, but I don't think you're entirely right either)

[Burgold]

It's pretty clear how the trajectory of black people in America, going up heading into the 60s, flatlined in the 70s and 80s mostly due to the War on Poverty (ironically enough).

You know the statistics regarding: drug use, illegitimacy rates, dropout rates, unemployment, crime, and gentrification.

So I guess I don't blame the Civil Rights bill as much as the welfare crap that came after it.

Hmmm.. and what happened in the 60's (liberal rule) What happened when the progress flatlined (Nixon and Ford?) and what happened in the 80's? Reagan and Bush I. Seems to me that if you go by your own timeframe we can see the Why pretty clearly.

[ABQCOWBOY]

I am very curious to see what the public opinion on HC reform will be half a year from now. Not as curious as I am about 2010 elections, but still very very curious.

I view the Cap and Trade regulation as a push to stimulate the proper investment at home. I am more concerned about us getting ahead in next gen energy technology than I am concerned about other countries getting on board. I may be overly optimistic, but I think we can solve both economic and environmental problems by getting on the ball and putting our muscle behind energy R&D.

Cap and Trade can not work simply because you take coal, even clean coal off the table. This not only robs the US of it's most abundant fuel source but it puts a lot of people out of work. The problem here is that you can't, IMO, stimulate the kinds of change you are discussing with just becoming more Green Efficiant. The sell to the American people is that we must curb the emmissions but the reality is that whatever we curb will still be outdistanced by a growing Chinese, Korean, Indian, African and Russian economic growth movement. It's a one step forward, 10 step back deal. By the time we reach the 2050 targeted emmisions thresholds, assuming we ever do, these other countries will have increased the total carbon emmissions by 4x what our projected goal will be. It makes no sense to try and do this. Even if the Cap and Trade regs were put into effect, our Government knows that they don't work. Many other countries all over the world have tried to implement them and all that happens is that business exceeds the number and just buys more credits from the Government. They pass the costs onto the consumer and the price of life goes up. Reductions don't actually happen. It becomes a revenue center and the Government makes more money but the problem is not actually solved. Meanwhile, the people pay.

Geo or Fusion is the answer IMO but neither is funded. Cap and Trade, IMO, is about money. Nothing more.

[JohnLockesGhost]

Perhaps. Or maybe the stimulus did exactly what it was hoped it would do. Get the patient out of critical care and strong enough that we can begin surgery.

All depends on how cynical you feel like being.

(You're probably more right than wrong, but I don't think you're entirely right either)

I don't really figure in the "stimulus," that's just a shell game. The real issue is the TARP and the Federal Reserve injecting liquidity.

So we've saved the banks, but at whose expense?

[Burgold]

I don't really figure in the "stimulus," that's just a shell game. The real issue is the TARP and the Federal Reserve injecting liquidity.

So we've saved the banks, but at whose expense?

That was always understood in both stimuli shots. I always thought it was like radiation therapy on a cancer patient. Sure, the chemo may kill off the cancer, but it's going to other damage to you as well and if you get the dosage wrong can be equally fatal.

[JohnLockesGhost]

Hmmm.. and what happened in the 60's (liberal rule) What happened when the progress flatlined (Nixon and Ford?) and what happened in the 80's? Reagan and Bush I. Seems to me that if you go by your own timeframe we can see the Why pretty clearly.

I know you're just jerking my chain, but...

Did Nixon or Ford change any of LBJ's welfare programs? I'm sure you're aware that it often takes a generation for the Unintended Consequences of our best of intentioned laws to surface.

[Burgold]

Yeah, I'm just being silly about the President thing. It is an odd correlation, but I don't think it's meaningful esp. since Congress is the Bill passer and for a majority if not all of those years the Dems controlled at least the House.

All things considered, I think if we were to measure everything (in terms of Civil Rights) there would be very few minorities eager to return to the ways of the 40's or 50's. I think the U.S. has taken quite a few positive steps and is a better place socially, racially than it was the generation before mine. I also think that we've plateaued (like you said) and that there are several issues that lurk under the surface and are probably more entrenched than either of us would prefer.