MyFoxPhilly.com: Philly woman assaulted while wearing Romo shirt.

[Old Dominion Monarch 06]

Bro, my brain

Take it easy on it please

[dutchREDSKIN]

From living in Germany, I gained great insight into why Europeans act like thugs at soccer matches. Europeans are heavily taxed, always having rules imposed on them, and in general, have a great deal less freedom than your average American. Their outlet is soccer matches (and beerfests). They use the sport and the time to go nuts, to serve as an outlet for their deeply ingrained and suppressed frustration at not being able to get ahead in life.

From a sociological standpoint, I think the same general principle applies to Philly and Oakland fans. They tend to be blue collar, under-educated, hold less than intellectually stimulating jobs, etc... In short, their potential success and intellectual potential is encapsulated with MTV's "Jersey Shore." So, they, like Europeans, have little to look forward to in their personal lives. They use football as an outlet to go nuts and act like animals...all as an outlet for their deeply ingrained and suppressed frustration at being failures in life.

Am sure there is NSF money available if someone wants to better conduct a sociological study, but those are just my initial thoughts...

Had to react, that is the most ignorant statement I have EVER read on a message board.

Soccer hooligans go crazy at matches because they are allowed to do it, the police in Europe doesn't nearly have the freedom to immediately counter-act against violence as their American colleagues have.

[LD0506]

Say what you will, we don't see pics of Cowboy fans here dressed as cookie monster........

[HailRiggoRanger]

Had to react, that is the most ignorant statement I have EVER read on a message board.

Soccer hooligans go crazy at matches because they are allowed to do it, the police in Europe doesn't nearly have the freedom to immediately counter-act against violence as their American colleagues have.

No police brutality in Europe? I don't know what you've been smoking in Holland. Seriously, you related to Baghdad Bob, by any chance?

I have some great photos of a police beatdown at Volksfest. Then, there's the infamous 2006 soccer riot in Stuttgart between British and German World Cup fans. Let's just say the police broke it up and broke it up real fast. During "Welcome to Germany" orientation classes, instructors make it very clear that the freedoms and rights Americans have in America do not apply in Europe. If the police order you to do something, you comply. I had a friend pulled over on a suspected DUI charge, the German polizei said they were going to draw his blood for tests. My friend began to argue that he didn't have to give up his blood...and well, let's just say, his argument couldn't be heard over the thud of billy clubs hitting him. The polizei got the blood and my friend got a few bumps and bruises.

I'm going to print out your statement and show it to my American police and German friends here. They'll have laugh about it.

Let me ask you one question -- have you ever lived in America? I've lived in both America and Europe...police brutality happens in both places, but in Europe, it's routinely done in broad daylight in front of whomever and without apology.

[superozman]

Reading comprehension, tough I know. No where in my post did I mention Philadelphia. I was talking about Eagles fans and the effect of Janis' groupthink on them, giving a hypothesis on the positive correlation between a person being an Eagle fan and a loser in life. Things broadly falling under sociology, not geography..

Yes you did, you said "Philly Fans". That phrase right there infers Philadelphian Fans. No where in your post did you mention Eagles fans. Typing comprehension? Or wait, because I am under-edcuated and my accounting job is less than intellectually stimulating, I should have been able to figure out that since this is the Around the NFL, you would only mention Eagles fans.

But even if you did mean just Eagles fans. That means your ripping on all of my friends for the most part. And just because you think your God's gift to the world with your prodigious vocabulary, and your acumen is above anyone else's, doesn't give you the right to come on here and think your better than a city of people.

Of course, you would...you're an Eagles fan. Don't let the rules, norms, or civilized behavior of this board stop you. Feel free to go igglephans.com or 700level.com, you'll fit right in there and can express those choice words

No where did I mention I was an Eagles fan. I am a Redskins fan. I actually go to other message boards, including Philaphans.com. And yes I enjoy the fact that it is controlled less. But it's where you go to enjoy yourself. I can see around here, some Ranger's patrol the board with a stick up their ---.

[superozman]

Had to react, that is the most ignorant statement I have EVER read on a message board.

QUOTE]

I second this statement, sir.

[SWFLSkins]

*throws a remote mine back*

*suddenly realizes he threw the detonator and not the mine* :knny:

[Going Commando]

I'm firmly convinced that It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia accurately represents what kind of terrible people Eagles fans are.

[royallypwned]

*suddenly realizes he threw the detonator and not the mine* :knny:

lol :yikes:

[Bostic Hog]

Living in the Philly 'burbs, I can't stand the constant non-sense about Philly fans. It happens everywhere.

INCLUDING BETHLEHEM!!! Are you kidding me? BETHLEHEM? That's where Jesus was born. There's even an Inn there I'm surprised this happened in Bethlehem. VERY surprised. Bethlehem is such a quaint, cool little town. Must of been out-of-towners getting all liquored up at the new Sands casino.

[Gary Clark Fan]

all they did was assult her? she was lucky....wow thats not so bad for a philly fan...i would of expected worse.

[DGreen28reigns]

I'm surprised this happened in Bethlehem. VERY surprised. Bethlehem is such a quaint, cool little town. Must of been out-of-towners getting all liquored up at the new Sands casino.

Bethlehem has its problems, too, but overall it is pretty cool. I grew up about 20 minutes from there.

I refuse to be surprised by the idiocy of Eagles fans, but this was awfully low.

Hey Bostic, your "location" cracked me up!!! :rotflmao:

[HailRiggoRanger]

I can see around here, some Ranger's patrol the board with a stick up their ---.

Man oh man, I feel kinda bad…this is like picking on a wounded animal. The only consolation I take from the life lesson I am about to give you, is that hopefully I open up an intellectual, critical thinking world that you didn’t even know existed.

This isn’t anything personal, I just happen to enjoy intellectual, scientific-based research and finding answers to questions plaguing mankind.

As such, feel free to take out a notepad b/c school is in session:

I stated a simple testable hypothesis: Being a violent Eagles fan is positively correlated with being a loser in life.

What findings from the scientific community support the proposition of this hypothesis?

First, we start with a theory, and I propose that social capital theory can be applied as an explanation and prediction of violence committed as a fan and one’s failings in the game of life. Social capital theory is the networks, norms and trust that form between individuals to facilitate coordination and cooperation for increased benefit (see Putnam 2000). In sum, individuals gain when they are able to join/establish a group that has civilized norms and rules of behavior.

Now, as Putnam (2000) and Coleman et al (1988) argue, if social capital breaks down, then there are very real threats to civil society as well as to an individual’s personal health. And, as Davis (2005) finds, the behavior of fans at sporting matches, demonstrated through aggression, is the perfect example of a breakdown in social capital. Fans willingly disregard the very implicit contracts that serve to control and modify anti-social behavior. In short, fans act like animals. Some prominent examples of a complete and total breakdown in social capital include assaulting females with the wrong jersey on, throwing snowballs at Santa, and breaking Chief Zee’s legs.

So, now, why does this breakdown occur? Why do some fans act like animals? Wann et al (2003) gives two reasons: 1. tactical annoyances – alcohol, heat, overcrowding, and a bad day at work and 2. abstract identification – fans identify personally with what occurs on the field. If a player is pushed, then they are pushed. If their team loses, then they lose.

This abstract identification is supported by the work of Taylor (1971), Croall (1976) and Roadburg (1980), who argue that working class supporters (in particular adolescent unemployment or unskilled males with few possessions) regard their team as their possession. If the team wins, they win at the game of life. Roadburg (1980) even goes so far as to say these fans regard their team as their “private property.” The result is as Roadburg (1980) finds, “Once the crowd psychology develops, the game referee, the police, innocent bystanders, and public or private property can become extensions of the opposition, hence, targets for aggression.”

Lever (1984) supports this notion of working class and under-educated males correlated with fan violence. She finds that simply increasing the minimum wage in a trouble fan base area results in a decline in violence.

The work of Taylor, Croall, and Roadburg has been applied to European soccer fans (you listening “dutchREDSKIN”?), while Lever’s work applies to South American fans. Roadburg, in his 1980 work, postulates about whether this type of violence could occur in America, and he concludes “probably not” given the lack of opportunities for mob mentality to take hold. A couple of his examples are as follows: 1. Americans drive to sporting events in individual cars; they do not have a chance to bond with like-minded fans on public transportation like Europeans. 2. Americans go to individual seats in stadiums; Europeans go to “terraces” and stand with like-minded fans.

Nonetheless, he does not discount the correlation between being an “underachiever” in life and being prone to violence. In fact, his work supports it. Robson (2000), in the seminal “No One Likes Us, We Don’t Care”: The Myth and Reality of Millwall Fandom, explores the notion of being a loser in life and being prone to violence with his case study on Millwall FC fans. His case study eerily resembles what occurs with the Eagle fanbase, saying their fans in routinely committing violence do so “swelling with pride and pleasure and exuding a celebratory swagger verging on menace.” These fans have a record of violence that dates back to the nineteenth century and are described as being “working class” with a penchant for violence and dominant male behavior.

So, clearly, as I proposed social research supports the notion that blue collar, under-educated, unskilled fans with bleak hopes for any chance of career or academic success live and die through their personal possession – their sports teams.

Now, that I have walked you through how I formed my hypothesis, I would propose based on the work of Taylor (1971), Croall (1976), Roadburg (1980), Lever (1984), and Wann et al (2003) that a logit statistical model could be formulated as follows:

Model: violence = A + ß1education + ß2career + ß3income + ß4environment + ß5happiness + εi

where:

violence is coded one if a crime was committed and zero otherwise,

education is the number of years of education,

career is coded a 1 for skilled, intellectually demanding labor and zero otherwise,

income is the annual gross income,

environment is coded high (2=daily exposure to 2 or more fellow Eagle fans, where football is discussed for a minimum of 10 minutes), medium (1=weekly exposure to 2 or more fellow Eagle fans, where football is discussed for a minimum of 10 minutes), or low (0=less than weekly exposure to 2 or more fellow Eagle fans, where football is discussed for a minimum of 10 minutes),

happiness is coded on a scale from 0-10 (with zero being personally unhappy and 10 being completely content with one’s life), and

εi is the error term.

So, as I stated in my original email, the current research supports a hypothesis correlating being a loser in life with being a violent Eagle fan. Data would have to be collected on Eagle fans, which would probably require a grant (as well as police protection).

My work is done here. How, you like them apples?

[dockeryfan]

what a bunch of nonsense.

for every thug you find that is a philly fan, I can find an average Joe like Number5 or OWU, etc. I know plenty of normal philly football fans. Your statement is ignorant, and I'm not even talking about looking at your ridiculous study designs, etc.

[No_Pressure]

Living in the Philly 'burbs, I can't stand the constant non-sense about Philly fans. It happens everywhere.

INCLUDING BETHLEHEM!!! Are you kidding me? BETHLEHEM? That's where Jesus was born. There's even an Inn there I'm surprised this happened in Bethlehem. VERY surprised. Bethlehem is such a quaint, cool little town. Must of been out-of-towners getting all liquored up at the new Sands casino.

Old town Bethlehem is really nice actually. Allentown is the armpit town and it doesn't even have a casino. :doh:

[superozman]

Throughout this thread you have pretty much put down Eagles fans (which coincidentally includes Phillies/Flyers/76ers fans), and then persist to back up your theory with your expertise in research on the correlation of under educated/poor fans and the violence that derives from that circumstance. However, I go back to the comment where your taking Philadelphia sports fans as a whole (where the assumption is majority of fans root for all Philly teams if they watch the other sports). Your theory is correct to a point, as you have backed it up with a copious amount of evidence. However, it pertains to a specific individual, and not fans as a whole grouping. I might agree with you that Philadelphia may have more happenstances of the article’s situation, but understand your research pertains to fans across the United States as a whole, and not just Eagles fans.

As you berate me in a few threads, as well as Eagles fans, I look at it as a form of put-down psychology. You tend to criticize and manipulate us with your posts, making sure each post includes thorough research which you think the second party will not bother to read and/or comprehend. I can infer that you come on here, complete these posts, in which you make it look socially acceptable to dispose your indignation on people you think are less fortunate than yourself.

[dockeryfan]

As you berate me in a few threads, as well as Eagles fans, I look at it as a form of put-down psychology. You tend to criticize and manipulate us with your posts, making sure each post includes thorough research which you think the second party will not bother to read and/or comprehend. I can infer that you come on here, complete these posts, in which you make it look socially acceptable to dispose your indignation on people you think are less fortunate than yourself.

You are 100% correct. He is making claims about Philly fans in general that are unsupported, then he cites research that is related to violence and sports, that violent fans have lower socioeconomic conditions, etc.

His research notwithstanding, he has failed to prove that Philly fans, are indeed, more violent. Show me some statistics in terms of increased arrests, increased injury, etc at the Linc, and maybe we can use his research. In fact, we still only would be able to draw conclusions about fans that go to the stadium, not Philly fans in general. Fact is, it's all anecdotal. Then he draws conclusions that Philly fans are blue collar in general, because they are more violent. See the failing?

They use the sport and the time to go nuts, to serve as an outlet for their deeply ingrained and suppressed frustration at not being able to get ahead in life.

From a sociological standpoint, I think the same general principle applies to Philly and Oakland fans. They tend to be blue collar, under-educated, hold less than intellectually stimulating jobs, etc...

I go to stadiums, and I have to say the Linc isn't 1/4 of what people think it is in terms of violence. For him to say Philly fans are blue collar because of his "research" is preposterous.

[Chachie]

Eagle fans are absolutely being harassed by the media. Every time one of those poor guys assaults someone, the news outlets jump all over it. :mad:

[HailRiggoRanger]

Throughout this thread you have pretty much put down Eagles fans (which coincidentally includes Phillies/Flyers/76ers fans), and then persist to back up your theory with your expertise in research on the correlation of under educated/poor fans and the violence that derives from that circumstance. However, I go back to the comment where your taking Philadelphia sports fans as a whole (where the assumption is majority of fans root for all Philly teams if they watch the other sports). Your theory is correct to a point, as you have backed it up with a copious amount of evidence. However, it pertains to a specific individual, and not fans as a whole grouping. I might agree with you that Philadelphia may have more happenstances of the article’s situation, but understand your research pertains to fans across the United States as a whole, and not just Eagles fans.

In all seriousness, I appreciate this post and would love to have an intellectual conversation of violence in sports. I have nothing against Eagles fans. I have a ton of Eagles fan friends that are well educated, successful, and smart as hell. I haven't fully studied social capital and mob mentalities, have only dabbled in it. Started to look at it when I moved to Europe, and all roads lead back to Eagles and Raider fans. I don't know if there is more violence at Linc; Roadburg (1980) would say "no" b/c the policies instituted (higher ticket prices, better environment, more security, etc...). But, nonetheless, the reputation of Eagles fans as thugs exists. No one can deny it. My Eagle friends say it's a known fact amongst Eagles fan, but they deny it...like the crazy uncle you try to keep locked away.

In any case, research withstanding (sorry "dockeryfan"), my model is preliminary but it is based on current research. If the research is conducted, and there is no correlation between the explanatory variables and violence...then that's a good thing. Science can move forward. There's nothing wrong, though, with winnowing and sifting to find the truth, and blanket statements of "that's ignorant" deserve no place in a serious debate. None. No place whatsoever. Anything and everything, where the truth is not fully known deserve to be studied.

In any case, it's all good. I appreciate your post. Will let you know if my work ever gets published.

[dockeryfan]

But, nonetheless, the reputation of Eagles fans as thugs exists. No one can deny it.

I'm trying to figure out where the science is with this statement, because everything else you talk about builds on this.

[Ax]

If true, which I doubt, then it's a reprehensible act of violent ignorance.

However, my bull**** meter spiked reading the story. No witnesses to a self serving incident that SCREAMS, look at me. Hmmm!

Just as likely, being a Cowboy fan, she was out on a date with her brother, he got mad cause she, spit, and brushed her upside the head. Then, together, they came up with this ****amamie story.

[authentic]

wow! thats Dirtdelphia for you.

[HailRiggoRanger]

His research notwithstanding, he has failed to prove that Philly fans, are indeed, more violent. Show me some statistics in terms of increased arrests, increased injury, etc at the Linc, and maybe we can use his research. In fact, we still only would be able to draw conclusions about fans that go to the stadium, not Philly fans in general. Fact is, it's all anecdotal. Then he draws conclusions that Philly fans are blue collar in general, because they are more violent. See the failing?

First, you state that you didn't read my research. Now, you state that you read it and that I am wrong based on your own observations. Which way is it?

You keep mentioning the phrase "blue collar." I have a feeling I hurt your feelings with the term. But, don't be mad at me. Maybe you can lobby Taylor (1971), Croall (1976), Roadburg (1980), Lever (1984), and Wann et al (2003) and tell them that they are mean for making such socioeconomic conclusions about people? Tell them there's no place for hurt feelings in scientific research. Would love to see how well that goes for you.

[HailRiggoRanger]

I'm trying to figure out where the science is with this statement, because everything else you talk about builds on this.

Read my earlier post and the works I cited and get back to me.

[dockeryfan]

First, you state that you didn't read my research. Now, you state that you read it and that I am wrong based on your own observations. Which way is it?

You keep mentioning the phrase "blue collar." I have a feeling I hurt your feelings with the term. But, don't be mad at me. Maybe you can lobby Taylor (1971), Croall (1976), Roadburg (1980), Lever (1984), and Wann et al (2003) and tell them that they are mean for making such socioeconomic conclusions about people? Tell them there's no place for hurt feelings in scientific research. Would love to see how well that goes for you.

First, I'm a doctor, so the term blue collar would not apply.

Second, I worked in medical research for years, and played with statistics more than you could ever do in your lifetime, I would imagine.

If the premise is bad, the premise is bad. There is no evidence to back up your claim regarding Philly fans compared to any other fan. That's the linchpin of your argument. Because of that, everyone on this site would be painted by the same brush you are using.