ES: Don't blame Snyder, blame Gibbs

[@DCGoldPants]

There is plenty of blame I feel Joe Gibbs should take. But I think Mr. Snyder deserves even more so.

I blame Joe for not seeing Vinny was a cancer to this Franchise......and for not dismissing him on his 1st day back.

I blame him for being all "Ahh Shucks" when players wanted to get stupid with their sock stripes or tape on their facemasks.

I blame him for bringing back all his old coaches, but not bringing in more Front Office help so he could focus more on coaching.

But I blame Snyder for coming into a playoff team, and basically destroying it by adding non-team guys. He got that ball rolling. I also blame him for not just hiring Marvin Lewis instead of going for Spurrier. Lastly, I blame Snyder for the ill-will that the fanbase has been feeling for years. There is a reason that people think all he wants is our money. Its because during every timeout, you heard Larry Michael trying to see us jersey's or whatever. Its because the the gameday experience is weak...especially when you have another team 30 min away that blows the gameday at FedEx field away. They even have a video about Fans Right's where they talk about how all staff/security will treat people with respect.

The stuff with the fan signs, t-shirts, etc just was really really bad for Mr. Snyder. If he's smart.....he won't be seen until opening day 2010.

[Dan T.]

If that was the case and everyone within Redskins Park loved Gregg Williams as much as the majority of the fanbase, then you'd be absolutely right. But like I said earlier, it wasn't just Snyder and/or Cerrato who grew tired of Gregg Williams by the end. Take from that, whatever you will.

So the players didn't like his style? Tough. Those that didn't could have been shown the door. There was a need for a purge then anyway.

I don't know if Williams would have been viable as the head coach here. I'm simply making two arguments regarding that. 1. Brashness and ****iness shouldn't necessarily be a disqualifying factor for a head coach, and 2. If Gibbs saw Williams as the heir apparent, then he didn't leave the team in the lurch when he retired suddenly.

[themurf]

So the players didn't like his style? Tough. Those that didn't could have been shown the door. There was a need for a purge then anyway.

I don't know if Williams would have been viable as the head coach here. I'm simply making two arguments regarding that. 1. Brashness and ****iness shouldn't necessarily be a disqualifying factor for a head coach, and 2. If Gibbs saw Williams as the heir apparent, then he didn't leave the team in the lurch when he retired suddenly.

I've tried to hint at it more than once in this thread, but let me be a little more clear - Joe Gibbs wasn't necessarily of the same mindset as the fanbase in regards to Williams and the idea of him taking over once Gibbs was done.

[RemoveSnyder]

Imagine you're Jerry Grey...You scratch his back, he'll scratch yours.

Does Lubbock come into play anywhere here?

[Dan T.]

I've tried to hint at it more than once in this thread, but let me be a little more clear - Joe Gibbs wasn't necessarily of the same mindset as the fanbase in regards to Williams and the idea of him taking over once Gibbs was done.

If so, never mind. :cool:

BTW, regardless, good piece Murph...

[Philip Pease]

Through no fault of his own, Joe Gibbs' success is the reason we Redskin fans are so disappointed with the Redskin's failure to repeat a champions.

[Fred Jones]

I've tried to hint at it more than once in this thread, but let me be a little more clear - Joe Gibbs wasn't necessarily of the same mindset as the fanbase in regards to Williams and the idea of him taking over once Gibbs was done.

Wow, that is information I have never heard. Man Gibbs can put on a good public show. He just is never critical of people in public.

And, moving on the current situation and leaving the past buried, one subject matter has me worried above all others.

Shanny will come in and restore discipline and bring in some good coaches and such. He will develop good game plans and get the players ready to play.

The big problem I have is the same problem faced by every other team. The coach wants too much power and should not be the sole decision maker on players. Gibbs II did not succeed as a GM. Shannahan did not succeed as a GM in Denver. Allen is not known for is ability to draft. So, I am a little worried about player acquisition.

[LetThePointsSoar]

Murf - always love your work...not sure I totally agree with this one, but it is definitely an interesting point/perspective and raises an eyebrow...

[Dan T.]

The big problem I have is the same problem faced by every other team. The coach wants too much power and should not be the sole decision maker on players. Gibbs II did not succeed as a GM. Shannahan did not succeed as a GM in Denver. Allen is not known for is ability to draft. So, I am a little worried about player acquisition.

I tend to agree. Where has the total autonomy model of an NFL head coach worked elsewhere? I honestly can't think of an example. Most of Shanahan's success in Denver came before he had total control. Holmgren's stint in Seattle was mixed at best.

Where's the successful model of the head coach with personnel control?

[TankRizzo]

blaming Joe Gibbs for the front office's ineptitude? Come on now, that's completely absurd.

Vinny and Danny were an exercise in dysfunction and the ensuing head coaching search...The Process™....proved that.

Gibbs left the organization with EVERYTHING in tact for the continuation of what he started. Gregg Williams simply needed "Assistant" removed from his title. This wasn't just a fan assumption of what/how it should have happened, it IS how it should have happened. The only reason it DIDN'T happen that way was because Gregg Williams had an ego and that clashed with that of Snyder and Vinny, he wouldn't be content with their childish games that they wanted to play. What do you think would have happened if Gregg was calling defensive plays and Dan wasn't happy with the results and Vinny brought in Ray Rhodes as a consultant to call plays on defense? He wouldn't have put up with that BS and THAT is the only reason he didn't get the job. He wasn't a yes man and they couldn't handle that.

[TheLongshot]

I am old enough to have lived through Gibbs I and I love the man as much as anyone. But I'm still waiting for the posters who claim Gibbs II was a success to respond to my post above.

He had every right to retire when he did. I don't see how anyone can blame him for walking away or for what followed regardking the coaching/front office structure. But he also gutted the team of (by my count) a 1st, a 2nd, 4 3rds and a 4th and all he had to show for it was JC and and 2 years out of Pete Kendall. IMO that has KILLED this team.

I think Gibbs' results are mixed. He built a pretty good team, but tossed a lot away to try to "buy" a SB team in 2006 when he probably overestimated what he had. That's really the only time when I think he made some severe personnel mistakes. Course, not all of it was on him, since the personnel department and his coaching staff both failed him a bit that year, but the buck stopped with Gibbs.

I think what Gibbs brought that has carried over to a certain extent is what it means to be a team. Before Gibbs got here, I get the impression that the players were mostly acting on their own. Gibbs was able to bring these guys together and "fight their guts out". Unfortunately, some of that has dropped off, but it is because of that that the team was mostly able to hang together during this awful season that we have had.

[respectgibbs]

Respect gibbs damnit

[Dan T.]

Respect gibbs damnit

[Paigums]

I think the majority of you are missing the point of murf's article. He's not saying "Blame Gibbs" for the Redskins being terrible - he's saying "Blame Gibbs" if you don't like how they've handled the Zorn/Cerrato/Gray situation.

[KDawg]

I think the majority of you are missing the point of murf's article. He's not saying "Blame Gibbs" for the Redskins being terrible - he's saying "Blame Gibbs" if you don't like how they've handled the Zorn/Cerrato/Gray situation.

I think most of us get that. And I still don't agree with it.

Murf always takes time to think out his posts, and I respect him a great deal, but I still disagree.

The only people to blame for any of this stuff, INCLUDING Gibbs, is our front office.

[Hail Gibbs]

While I do think Gibbs deserves blame for the predicament the Redskins have been in over the past 2 seasons and even prior to that, I don't think it is because he left a year early. I think his main faults during his second tenure were poor personnel decisions. IMO the Brunell's, Lloyd's, Duckett's, etc.. set the franchise back much further than him leaving a year early did.

Like many others have said, the team (Dan/Vinny) should have had a contingency plan in place. Wasn't there a plan for the following season when he was expected to leave? Why couldn't that plan be implemented a year early? Unless the only plan was to beg Gibbs to extend his deal. It's not like Dan/Vinny could have forecasted all the available coaches/FO personnel that would be available the following year.

Also I can fully understand him leaving a year early considering his grandson's situation and the stress of having just been through the Taylor incident. Also if he heard the chants of "Joe must go" then that couldn't have helped either, even though I don't think that was a factor in his decision to leave. But with all that was going on in his life I find it surprising that Dan/Vinny would be so blindsided when he left a year early, especially when it was widely speculated elsewhere throughout the year.

Even if he did stay one more year I don't really think it would have helped much. No doubt he is a better, more respected coach than Zorn, and the stability in the coaching staff would have been a plus, but I don't think Gibbs could have gotten a whole lot more out of this roster than he already had in terms of results.

[HailSkinz1]

Sorry Murf, I usually like your stuff, but you're just way off on this one. Gibbs abruptly quit because he wouldn't agree to give Jason Campbell the starting spot over Todd Collins. I'm not going to rehash it all here (I've done so before on this site), but if you go back and look at the comments from Gibbs after the season but before he quit, and then Zorn as soon as he was hired, as well as put some other fairly obvious cirumstantial information together, it all adds up to Gibbs quitting because he would not allow Snyder to dictate who his QB would be. We couldn't hire anyone else because they too refused to hand the job over to JC without at least a training camp fight. Zorn was the only one who would take the job and agree to give it to JC without a fight. Snyder was bent on proving JC was a franchise QB, but even he finally had to give up that fight.

Gibbs is not to blame. It's all Snyder. Sorry Murf, but this seems like another instance where an ES Mod has decided to blame someone who is no longer with team for the sins of those who are still on the team.

Hail,

H

[cphil006]

The same holds true for Morocco Brown, who interviewed for the general manager position while Cerrato was still collecting a paycheck. If the opportunity presents itself, Brown and Gray have every right to pursue it. Neither knows if the chance will come again, so why walk away from it because critics who have nothing to do with anything might be unhappy.

And for those who simply want to point the finger at owner Daniel Snyder, we hate to break it to you, but he’s not to blame for all of this either.

If you want to be mad at someone, be mad at Joe Gibbs. Yeah, THAT Joe Gibbs. The Hall of Famer who is responsible for those three Super Bowl trophies we see at each press conference to announce new hirings. While everyone in D.C. likes to only view Grandpa Gibbs through rose-colored glasses, he’s actually the reason the Redskins front office has had to change the way they operate.

Gibbs had every right to retire, but you see, when he decided to walk away the second time, he did it so abruptly that the Redskins front office had no backup plan. Sure, fans like us had already appointed Gregg Williams as the heir apparent, but more than one person working at Redskins Park has told us Williams never really had a shot at the job. His arrogance and brash demeanor killed any real chance he ever had at replacing Gibbs (floating rumors about million-dollar payouts if he wasn’t given the job didn’t help either).

.

They didn't change anything after Gibbs left... Gibbs leaving had nothing to do with the failure to address the O-Line, using three second rounders for players to yet make an impact, and for hiring an unproven Jim Zorn.... Vinny was here before AND after Gibbs...

We sucked these past two seasons, so hindsight maybe Gregg Williams was who we needed, perhaps if Vinny had listened to Gibbs and gone with Williams... we'd have been better than 12-20 since...

You completely failed to rationalize HOW or WHY it was Gibbs' fault. Vinny Cerrato believed we had da playoff roster (laugh), but we didn't have the right coach. Gibbs brought in quality starters and some professionalism for some of the players... Sndyer did the same old after Gibbs left.

This article is down-right laughable at the lack of credibilty of connecting dots like it's Pee-Wee's play-house.

[cphil006]

I think the majority of you are missing the point of murf's article. He's not saying "Blame Gibbs" for the Redskins being terrible - he's saying "Blame Gibbs" if you don't like how they've handled the Zorn/Cerrato/Gray situation.

And... he's failed to give a legit reason as to how the **** is Gibbs linked to the way they handled Zorn?Cerrato/Gray???

[cphil006]

There is plenty of blame I feel Joe Gibbs should take. But I think Mr. Snyder deserves even more so.

I blame Joe for not seeing Vinny was a cancer to this Franchise......and for not dismissing him on his 1st day back.

I blame him for being all "Ahh Shucks" when players wanted to get stupid with their sock stripes or tape on their facemasks.

I blame him for bringing back all his old coaches, but not bringing in more Front Office help so he could focus more on coaching.

The stuff with the fan signs, t-shirts, etc just was really really bad for Mr. Snyder. If he's smart.....he won't be seen until opening day 2010.

Those are minor, except for the Vinny... Gibbs had been out of the league for a while, and I guess he felt it good to keep someone around to help.. or so he thought.

Gibbs II was an enourmous success considering he took TWO Dan Snyder teams to the playoffs in FOUR years. And won more playoff games in those FOUR years than the Cowboys have in the past 10+ seasons...

[cphil006]

Wow, that is information I have never heard. Man Gibbs can put on a good public show. He just is never critical of people in public.

And, moving on the current situation and leaving the past buried, one subject matter has me worried above all others.

Shanny will come in and restore discipline and bring in some good coaches and such. He will develop good game plans and get the players ready to play.

The big problem I have is the same problem faced by every other team. The coach wants too much power and should not be the sole decision maker on players. Gibbs II did not succeed as a GM. Shannahan did not succeed as a GM in Denver. Allen is not known for is ability to draft. So, I am a little worried about player acquisition.

I didn't think Gibbs II was a GM. Wasn't that Vinny's "role"... Gibbs had influence, but being out of the league for a while he's got to trust his scouting department to tell him what players to get... I fully blame them for going after Brunell instead of Kurt Warner...

Allen isn't a player evaluator, but Morroco Brown and Scott Campbell are... Shanahan will work in collaboration with these people to get a roster for his team...

You can't put concrete titles on people in this... Shanahan is the coach and every coach runs things a certain way and you try and find people to play best in that system, so it's a group effort... not one person having "power" over another... although, there will be some that have more influence, but they all want to win and realize they must work together rationally and in the best interest of the team not their own self-interest.

[Paigums]

And... he's failed to give a legit reason as to how the **** is Gibbs linked to the way they handled Zorn?Cerrato/Gray???

Actually, that's what the entire article is about. When Gibbs up and left, it showed how inept the front office was in all aspects. By allowing the HC to have too much power (and granted, it's Gibbs...I get it) and by NOT having a contingency plan given everything that happened that year - they got "caught with their pants down" so to speak. That entire scenario led to the way their handling things NOW. They were stuck with Zorn given the situation - no one plans on bringing in a QB coach and then promotes them to HC two weeks later. It reeks of desperation. But these things take time to iron out. Now that there are quality HC's on the market, they're not waiting around - they took action with Cerrato and ensured that Bruce Allen was lined up immediately. They're bringing in Shanahan and making sure that the Rooney Rule has been covered. Waste no time. Take charge before it's too late. It's refreshing to see...finally. Murf is simply saying that the Gibbs scenario has led to this new management style, so if you're blaming Snyder for it, take a look back and see why - it's because of Gibbs. And it's not a terrible thing.

[herb mul-key]

BS... I do blame Gibbs for quitting and feel he has mislead us about the reasons...he was tired....just tired of the BS and Snyderatto...

I blame SNYDERATTO for being way over their heads and bull****ting themselves thinking they knew how to cultivate a winning NFL franchise. Dumb and Dumber hire a rookie and undercut him instead of lead and support him properly. Period. Zorn buckled under the ridiculousness that is Snyderatto....

I have hope that a Shanny-Allen team is big enough to put and keep Danny in his place and build the 'skins into a winner once again.

[Mooka]

Blame Joe Gibbs because Snyder didn't have a contingency plan and was caught with his pants behind his ankles?

That's just poor management.

[Larry Brown #43]

Nice piece Murf, and I think you accurately described what went on inside the building when Gibbs retired. And that's what's disappointing.

The organization should be ashamed for not anticipating that Gibbs might resign. A buddy of mine and I were talking after Sean Taylor was murdered, and we both immediately agreed-- "Gibbs is done."

Between his grandson's cancer and the murder of Taylor, I would have been STUNNED if Gibbs had returned in '08. And if the organization was stunned that he reisgned, then shame on them.

In fact, in the wake of Taylor's death, if you had polled the membership of Extremeskins, I'd be surprised if even 50% of the membership would have expected Gibbs to return for another season.

If Vinny and Dan were taken by surprise as it appears they were, it only underscores their incompetence as a tandem.