Computerworld: Court Orders Three H1-B Sites Disabled

[Fergasun]

By Patrick Thibodeau

A New Jersey judge has ordered the shutdown of three H-1B opposition Web sites and seeks information about the identity of anonymous posters. On Dec. 23, Middlesex County Superior Court Judge James Hurley ordered firms that register domains and provide hosting services -- GoDaddy Inc., Network Solutions, Comcast Cable Communications Inc. and DiscountASP.Net, to disable the three sites, ITgrunt.com, Endh1b.com, and Guestworkerfraud.com. Facebook Inc. was also ordered to disable ITgrunt's Facebook page. DiscountASP.Net said it has disabled Endh1b.com after it received the order from the New Jersey Superior Court. The order did not request any account information, only that the company "...immediately shut down and disable the website www.endh1b.com until further order of this court..," a spokesman said in an email. Facebook said it received the document Monday.

GoDaddy is complying with the order and has suspended the web hosting for ITgrunt.com, said Laurie Anderson. GoDaddy disputes manager, domain services. The web site Endh1b.com is registered but not hosted at Go Daddy, Anderson added in an e-mail. "Both domain names have been placed on registrar lock due to the pending litigation. When Go Daddy receives a court order, it is standard procedure to comply," she said.

Details of the case: IT services firm Apex filed a libel lawsuit against the three websites. An Apex employment agreement was posted onto docstoc.com, and the document was linked and comments made (I guess) on those three websites. It is seeking the identity of anonymous poster who put the documents up, as well as claiming the comments are damaging the company, and the act was also copyright infringement. There are obvious concerns of chilling free speech.

The larger issue is the use of H1B to bypass American workers and abuse of H1B employees with illegally binding contracts.

[Fergasun]

Here is allegedly what was in the employment agreement:

“If you join a company (including any level between you and APEX) then pay $35,000 or face a law suit, $9,000 for legal, training and guest services when you quit. $35,000 if you quit in between a contract…etc. The legalities of the agreement are convoluted, abstract and can/will be used against you if you displease APEX Technology Group Inc. So once you sign that document you are at the mercy of the employer and much worse than a bonded laborer in India."

[JMS]

The menacing head of H1B workers is trying to raise again. IT firms are making the absurd case that with 10.2 unemployment we need to continue to import "skilled" labor on a temporary basis to the tune of 100k a year or more...

This court case you cite, sounds to me like the first salvos of that larger effort which is soon to heat up.

They are going to try to silence the critics, and present H1B's as an economic stimulus.. Trying to pursuade the majority of Americans who are ignorant of the ramifications.

On a brighter note, I heard arch conservative John McLaughlin on his show this week profess that open trade policy (aka free trade) is a looser of 2009. That limited protectionist markets is the better solution and new way forward.... I hope he wasn't making a personal declaration but rather a broad interpretation of where the country is!... Open trade is a disaster.

If folks on the right are coming to that conclusion, hopefully more folks on the left will too....

The H1B argument is a microcasm and to my mind linked to that greater debate.

H1B's should further be cut back to 20k or so and there it should remain. A return to the days of 120k+ would be a disaster.

It basically heralded the US exiting the high tech computer software market.... America turning it's back on the software / computer market at the dawn of the information age.

Insanity!

[AsburySkinsFan]

Wow, I'm at a total loss here...what is H1B?

[sjinhan]

The menacing head of H1B workers is trying to raise again. IT firms are making the absurd case that with 10.2 unemployment we need to continue to import "skilled" labor on a temporary basis.

This sounds like the first salvos of the larger effort which is soon to heat up.

On a brighter note, I heard arch conservative John McLaughlin on his show this week profess that open trade policy (aka free trade) is a looser. That limited protectionist markets is the better solution and new way forward....

If folks on the right are coming to that conclusion, hopefully more folks on the left will too....

H1B's should further be cut back to 20k or so and there it should remain. A return to the days of 120k+ would be a disaster. It basically heralded the US exiting the high tech computer software market....

Insanity!

i actually think cutting back the H1B visas back to 20k would be even worse. Now instead of having workers coming overseas to work in the USA.. it will be jobs leaving overseas to workers in other countries...

If there really was that many qualified skilled workers in the USA for this type of work.. then why would a company willing to deal with the cost of sponsering workers to work in the USA which would add additional 10-20k a year in legal and other associated fees when you can find enough American workers to do the same job.

I mean if you a position that pays a $60k per year then a company pays another $10-20k in legal fees to sponser the person. Also in addition to this the employer is taking a bigger risk in taking a person whose english might suspect or who might have hard time culturally adjusting to the USA.

Why wouldn't the employer just hire an American who is willing to do the job for $65-70k instead? It sure sounds like a better deal then messing with the H1B visa and everything else that comes with it.

[Destino]

The solution here is for the actual media to publish this document and cover the story. The courts could do nothing about it if they did. There is no free speech that allows private individuals not connected with the press in anyway to take private documents from companies and launch websites with them.

[sjinhan]

Wow, I'm at a total loss here...what is H1B?

From Wikipedia...

The H-1B is a non-immigrant visa in the United States under the Immigration and Nationality Act, section 101(a)(15)(H). It allows U.S. employers to temporarily employ foreign workers in specialty occupations. If a foreign worker in H-1B status quits or is dismissed from the sponsoring employer, the worker can find another employer, apply for a change of status to another non-immigrant status, or must leave the US.

The regulations define a “specialty occupation” as requiring theoretical and practical application of a body of highly specialized knowledge in a field of human endeavor[1] including, but not limited to, architecture, engineering, mathematics, physical sciences, social sciences, biotechnology, medicine and health, education, law, accounting, business specialties, theology, and the arts, and requiring the attainment of a bachelor’s degree or its equivalent as a minimum[2] (with the exception of fashion models, who must be "of distinguished merit and ability".)[3] Likewise, the foreign worker must possess at least a bachelor’s degree or its equivalent and state licensure, if required to practice in that field. H-1B work-authorization is strictly limited to employment by the sponsoring employer.

Basically this is the only major reasonable method of legally immigrating into the USA for foreigner...

This also allows the USA to keep absorbing the best and most gifted skilled workers. If H1B was limited then it would seriously limit the USA ability to only acquire the top workers from other countries but also limit our ability to retain the graduate international students in the American universities...

EDIT: Few years back.. Bill Gates went to Congress to increase the H1B visa limit... of course they got blasted in the Republicans cause they said Microsoft wanted to bring in cheap labor from India and bring down the salaries of American workers... What will really happen is if Microsoft can't find workers to compete with rest of the world then they will just open more offices overseas instead of bring them to the USA.

http://blogs.computerworld.com/five_reasons_why_the_h_1b_visa_cap_will_increase

[Corcaigh]

The problem is what the H1B visas are being used for by certain companies. It currently tries to satisfy two needs and doesn't do very well at either.

H1B provides a mechanism for high tech immigrants to enter the US economy. Many Silicon Valley firms such as Google would not exist but for H1B. But H1B is flawed for this as spouses of visa holders are not allowed to work. The only reason it is usable is that the company will typically sponsor the visa holder for permanent residency and so in a couple of years a spouse can seek employment.

However, the H1B system has been exploited by Indian contracting firms in essentially outsourcing IT within the finance sector. This depresses wages in this sector and exposes loopholes and weaknesses in immigration staffing as too many bull**** applications are accepted, not all are the highly skilled workers they claim.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Basically this is the only major reasonable method of legally immigrating into the USA for foreigner...

This also allows the USA to keep absorbing the best and most gifted skilled workers. If H1B was limited then it would seriously limit the USA ability to only acquire the top workers from other countries but also limit our ability to retain the graduate international students in the American universities...

Let me see if I understand this; the company Apex was creating illegal contracts for their H1B employees someone posted the details of those contracts on a web site, now the government at the behest of Apex is looking for the person who posted the contract details in order to prosecute that person for copyright violations?

[sjinhan]

While other countries are worried about the "brain drain" to the USA... Some law makers are trying their best to ruin probably one of the greatest competitive advantages of this country has over any other nation in the world.

[JMS]

Wow, I'm at a total loss here...what is H1B?

H1B is the modern equivelent to indentured servants.... Only today the "servents" dont' get their fredom when their period of indentured is over; they get to return home; trained and keep their job wich is exported along with themselves at the end of their indenture....

Companies farm out work to consulting companies; then those consulting companies go out and hire foreign labor from the second or usually third world to come in and replace American workers...

The motivation is to save money. The foreign labor makes 20-30% what Americans make.

The "justify" this huge savings by claiming no Americans are either capable or willing to take the jobs....The American either is unwilling to work for 20-30% of his previous wage; go figure..... like that's news.... The reality is hundreds of thousands of American engineers have lost their jobs. For a time there after 2000 they were importing 160,000 foreign engineers while the American high tech market was shrinking......

The net effect has been Washington DC with cleared government jobs which can't be filled by H1B's is today the largest high tech market in the country. Before the H1B mass hoard decended upon us Washington DC was #3, behind both Silicon Valley and Boston. Today those jobs are done off shore and DC is #1.

The H1B bills are suposed to have protections built into them to protect Americans but essencially since the companies inquestion hire these folks through shell companies the protections are non existant.....

The H1B visa is good for 3 years and 6 with an extension. At the end of that time the now trained engineer returns to his country; with the job; and the company even saves more money....

[PokerPacker]

Let me see if I understand this; the company Apex was creating illegal contracts for their H1B employees someone posted the details of those contracts on a web site, now the government at the behest of Apex is looking for the person who posted the contract details in order to prosecute that person for copyright violations?

what a world, huh?

[sjinhan]

Let me see if I understand this; the company Apex was creating illegal contracts for their H1B employees someone posted the details of those contracts on a web site, now the government at the behest of Apex is looking for the person who posted the contract details in order to prosecute that person for copyright violations?

the problem is that H1B visas can be obused due to the legal status that the workers are put under.. basically if they get fired and can't find a job right away then they will basically have to leave the country... so it creats a situation where the forgien workers have no bargaining power at the work place for better wages and working conditions...

However with all its flaws.. its the most widely method used for legal immgration to the USA so the immigrates just think of the first 3-5 years as paying their "dues" of coming to America.

[sjinhan]

The motivation is to save money. The foreign labor makes 20-30% what Americans make.

The "justify" this huge savings by claiming no Americans are either capable or willing to take the jobs....

The American either is unwilling to work for 20-30% of his wage.... like that's news....

I know many many immigrants who are here because of the H1B... I have never heard of anyone making the amount of money you are claiming... 20-30% of Americans? You might be right if you are looking at Indian workers working in India then yes they will probably make 20-30% of American workers....

It is true that H1B visa holders do make less money then their American counterpart but its more like 10-30% less which is more like 70-90% of their counterparts and not the other way around...

EDIT; Again people just see it as them paying their "dues" until they get their green card.. after that they will move to a new job that will pay market salary for their talents...

[Corcaigh]

H1B is the modern equivelent to indentured servants....

We've had this discussion before.

Indian contracting companies are exploiting H1-B to do as you say.

But H1-B is the current mechanism that fuels the development of technology companies too. Killing the H1-B program because of the abuses of Indian contracting companies would damage technology innovation too.

While I agree that many who arrive here on H1-B visas working for Tata or Apex or similar Indian mega corporations will return back to their country of birth and are usually not paid market rates, in technology product companies the situation is exactly the opposite. I know in excess of 20 H1-B visas holders who work for tech companies; just one returned to India and that was because of caring for her mother's illness. All the rest are permanent residents or citizens and make the USA their home and the place their children are educated.

[JMS]

Many Silicon Valley firms such as Google would not exist but for H1B.

I disagree. H1B visa's serve only one purpose. It's a cost savings for US companies who enjoy saving 50% on their payroll.

The net effect doesn't help American companies further than that.

It does however jump start foreign competition which traditionally has lagged far behind American in innovation and today is passing us up mostly because America has turned its back on a generation of young engineers in order to save money.

[Corcaigh]

I disagree. H1B visa's serve only one purpose. It's a cost savings for US companies who enjoy saving 50% on their payroll.

The net effect doesn't help American companies further than that.

And as a former H1-B visa holder I'm calling bull**** on this. Trust me, I was never paid 20-30-50% of market rates.

You need to distinguish between the legitimate and ethical employment practices of technology product companies and those who use the H1-B as part of their IT downsizing/outsourcing process, such as many large US finance institutions working with companies like Apex, Tata and others.

[sjinhan]

I disagree. H1B visa's serve only one purpose. It's a cost savings for US companies who enjoy saving 50% on their payroll.

The net effect doesn't help American companies further than that.

It does however jump start foreign competition which traditionally has lagged far behind American in innovation and today is passing us up mostly because America has turned its back on a generation of young engineers in order to save money.

How are you making these types of claims? Do you have any SPECIFIC personal experiences to back this up?

Graduating from Carnegie Mellon which is somewhat a decent college with engineering degree...

I saw basically everyone with legal Ameriican work status (green card or citizenship) get jobs. From the international students, I saw only the very top sudent among that group find companies that would get H1B visas for them. Those international student surely did not get paid any less than anyone else. In fact they got paid more because they tended to land very good jobs since they were top students in the graduating class... Other good international student who did not get jobs cause of the their legal status either went to graduate school in the USA or went back to their home country...

So JMS you have anything SPECIFIC to share to back up your claims?

[JMS]

i actually think cutting back the H1B visas back to 20k would be even worse. Now instead of having workers coming overseas to work in the USA.. it will be jobs leaving overseas to workers in other countries...

Which is BS.... If you put your engineer and consumer in the same room speaking the same language software projects fail to deliver anything 33% of the time, and they produce something wich is not useable 33% of the time; suceeeding only about 33% of the time.

Now if you take that engineer and move him halfway around the world the sucess rate is cut by an order of magnatude.....

The sucessful formula is to bring the foreign engineer here for a few years train him up, get him going, then export him with the work after the project is reached critical mass....

Which is what has been going on for the entire decade. America basically exporting our entire high tech industry.

If there really was that many qualified skilled workers in the USA for this type of work.. then why would a company willing to deal with the cost of sponsering workers to work in the USA which would add additional 10-20k a year in legal and other associated fees when you can find enough American workers to do the same job.

First off in the 1990's the United States had the #1 high tech marketplace in the world. Today we employ a fraction of the number of folks we employed in the 1990's in the high tech marketplace. Clearly we have the folks.

Second off why would a country invest 10k in order to replace an American engineer who makes 120-140k a year with a guy who makes 30-50k a year for six years? you do the math.

Every H1B even with the added legal fees represents 250-600k savings for the American company..... It's all about the money.

Now a free market guy might say.... great... That's economics if they can do it cheaper then good for the Chinese, Indians, Vietnamese..... The problem with this logic is there is no segment of our economy none, in which you couldn't get an Indian or Chinese worker to do it cheaper... None.

Also in addition to this the employer is taking a bigger risk in taking a person whose english might suspect or who might have hard time culturally adjusting to the USA.

That's not really a risk. If the guy doesn't work out they fire him, and their are three more waiting to fill his slot.

Why wouldn't the employer just hire an American who is willing to do the job for $65-70k instead? It sure sounds like a better deal then messing with the H1B visa and everything else that comes with it.

Because American engineers don't work for $65k a year. Because the free market supports a greater wage for American engineers who are free to seek their own level of compensation..... Also because the H1B is not free to seek his own fair market value for his wage it's a anti compeditive feature of the H1B program. An American engeer learns something, wants to move, wants to take a higher paid job in two years. He's gone or he gets a nice raise to stay. H1B's have no option. Their immigraiton status is tied to the job. They are not going anywere else in the US after a US firm hires them but home. It's much more difficult for them to change jobs.

[JMS]

How are you making these types of claims? Do you have any SPECIFIC personal experiences to back this up?

Here is a specific statistic for you. america trained more than twice as many engineers in the 1990's than it did in the 2000's. That figure is directly tied to the H1B program which supresses wages and even makes Americans unhireable in domesitc high tech markets.

I'm making claims? What about you? Claiming America which trains MORE ENGINEERS THAN INDIA somehow has to rely on India for engineers!!

[Thiebear]

Before we take the JMS train off to another station.

I have no idea about the [statement] that is being suppressed, it would seem to be a GOOD thing to bring that kind of treatment out into the light?

[Corcaigh]

Before we take the JMS train off to another station.

I have no idea about the [statement] that is being suppressed, it would seem to be a GOOD thing to bring that kind of treatment out into the light?

I think that these companies need to be investigated to see if their hiring practices are legal.

But publishing a confidential document on the web is not the right way to do it.

However, I would hope a journalist and some politician would pick up the issue.

[sjinhan]

First off in the 1990's the United States had the #1 high tech marketplace in the world. Today we employ a fraction of the number of folks we employed in the 1990's in the high tech marketplace. Clearly we have the folks.

Second off why would a country invest 10k in order to replace an American engineer who makes 120-140k a year with a guy who makes 30-50k a year for six years? you do the math.

Every H1B even with the added legal fees represents 250-600k savings for the American company..... It's all about the money.

Now a free market guy might say.... great... That's economics if they can do it cheaper then good for the Chinese, Indians, Vietnamese..... The problem with this logic is there is no segment of our economy none, in which you couldn't get an Indian or Chinese worker to do it cheaper... None.

Among probably 50-60 people I know who currently reside in the USA through the H1B visa program. I DO NOT KNOW OF SINGLE PERSON who made 20-30% of what their counter parts. So your claim is not correct. I am sure there are other people on this board who was or know of people who had the H1B visa at some point in their life. I am 100% sure that they will not back your claim... Not a single one.

Because American engineers don't work for $65k a year. Because the free market supports a greater wage for American engineers who are free to seek their own level of compensation..... Also because the H1B is not free to seek his own fair market value for his wage it's a anti compeditive feature of the H1B program. An American engeer learns something, wants to move, wants to take a higher paid job in two years. He's gone or he gets a nice raise to stay. H1B's have no option. Their immigraiton status is tied to the job. They are not going anywere else in the US after a US firm hires them but home. It's much more difficult for them to change jobs.

65k was a number used as a example. And yes American Engineers DO work for $65k a year. There are thousands of young engineers who make between 65-100k a year... If making 120-140k a year is a "given" because you got an engineering degree then you definitely have a messed up expecation of what people are getting paid in the real world.

[DjTj]

I disagree. H1B visa's serve only one purpose. It's a cost savings for US companies who enjoy saving 50% on their payroll.

How do you think Sergey Brin made it to the United States? It's likely that his father first came on a J-1 visa, but there was likely an H-1 or some other transitional visa before they got their green cards.

My father actually came to the University of Maryland at about the same time as Michael Brin, but on an F-1 visa. My mom eventually got an H-1 that led to a green card and allowed my entire family to stay in the United States. I know dozens of families with very similar stories.

The net effect doesn't help American companies further than that.

A large number of H-1 visa holders, particularly from back in the 80's, ended up staying in the United States, and many of them (or their kids) ended up playing a big part in the dot-com boom.

The two major portal sites still standing, Yahoo and Google, were both co-founded by people born outside the United States.

It does however jump start foreign competition which traditionally has lagged far behind American in innovation and today is passing us up mostly because America has turned its back on a generation of young engineers in order to save money.

I would argue that our net gain of young engineers is far greater than our net loss. The United States was at the forefront of the dot-com boom BECAUSE of immigrants, and we are not being passed up by any other country, certainly not in software development.

As Corcaigh mentioned, there are some Indian consulting firms that are abusing the H-1B system, and we need reform in that respect. But arbitrarily cutting down the number of visas would hurt American progress rather than help it.

Here is a specific statistic for you. america trained more than twice as many engineers in the 1990's than it did in the 2000's. That figure is directly tied to the H1B program which supresses wages and even makes Americans unhireable in domesitc high tech markets.

I'm making claims? What about you? Claiming America which trains MORE ENGINEERS THAN INDIA somehow has to rely on India for engineers!!

Where are you getting this statistic from?

The NSF has no data from India, but this site seems to show that Asia is issuing 700,000 engineering degrees every year while we are issuing only about 100,000.

http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind08/c2/c2s5.htm#c2s52

[sjinhan]

Here is a specific statistic for you. america trained more than twice as many engineers in the 1990's than it did in the 2000's. That figure is directly tied to the H1B program which supresses wages and even makes Americans unhireable in domesitc high tech markets.

I'm making claims? What about you? Claiming America which trains MORE ENGINEERS THAN INDIA somehow has to rely on India for engineers!!

umm where did I make that claim? Dude America is the past the point of just hiring anyone with a certain degree... America is about hiring the best and retaining the best people regardless where they are from. If India, Engliand, China, South Africa, Mexico, or any other country had a person who is best in the world at something.. its in American interest to attract that person to come and work and live in the the US.