Vinny C's draft picks by year

[redskins55]

The last two years have screwed us royal!! But to think we've only had 5 O-linemen selected in 9 years is ridiculous! That's not even 1 a year. Just Horrible!

[Rexx1240]

Vinny has made huge errors, but the draft is one place where I think we do pretty well. For the few picks we have, our success rate is not bad.

Yeah u may b rite but that's bcuz of Vinny's BPA draft strategy. If u look at his overall drafts each year, then u wuld giv him a high grade. But once u go back & look at the team needs from each year before/aftr the draft, then that high grade decreases tremendously.

EDIT: Vinny's allergic to draftin 1st round o-lineman & that is the exact opposite of building a winning franchise.

[HBnotBlades]

Some others have said this before, but we need to compare Vinny's success to other teams and not just look at the picks he missed. I could look at a list of Albert Pujols' at bats and determine that he sucks because 60% of the time he didn't get a hit. Let's not forget the fact that he struck out more that 60 times... terrible!

By not comparing Pujols' stats to others I'd never see the difference between good and bad numbers, and we need to do the same thing with Vinny if we're going to count up his hits/misses in the draft.

Something you can complain about is the shear lack of Oline picks or the number of picks we've had overall. Those are areas that we're distinctly behind other teams.

[KevinthePRF]

Vinny is a bad general manager. But it's unfair to judge him pick by pick, or free agent by free agent. His consistent failure doesn't have as much to do with player evaluation as much as crafting a franchise long term. Vinny can evaluate talent just as well as the rest of us armchair GMs.

The only metaphor I can think of is a pizza. He can tell what a good pepperoni tastes like or a good sausage tastes like but he can't make a good pizza.

The reasons are pretty obvious and have been stated in one form or another on this board. He's a yes man to knee-jerk Snyder. He leans on free agency more than the draft. He builds for the immediate present, not the future. If Cerrato's character ever got in line with eliminating those three flaws, we could probably rise up to the level of a Colts/Steelers type franchise instead of being doomed to 8-8 plus or minus year in and year out. Although being a yes man has probably been what's kept him around. No need for him to grow a pair and get himself fired.

[Thirtyfive2seven]

I got a star!

[Thirtyfive2seven]

Vinny is a bad general manager. But it's unfair to judge him pick by pick, or free agent by free agent. His consistent failure doesn't have as much to do with player evaluation as much as crafting a franchise long term. Vinny can evaluate talent just as well as the rest of us armchair GMs.

The only metaphor I can think of is a pizza. He can tell what a good pepperoni tastes like or a good sausage tastes like but he can't make a good pizza.

The reasons are pretty obvious and have been stated in one form or another on this board. He's a yes man to knee-jerk Snyder. He leans on free agency more than the draft. He builds for the immediate present, not the future. If Cerrato's character ever got in line with eliminating those three flaws, we could probably rise up to the level of a Colts/Steelers type franchise instead of being doomed to 8-8 plus or minus year in and year out. Although being a yes man has probably been what's kept him around. No need for him to grow a pair and get himself fired.

agree, with Vinny as the GM the Redskins will NEVER be set up for long term success. They always think they are a player or two away when in reality that just isn't the case.

The Redskins need to build through the draft and keep things consistent if they are ever to compete with teams in their own division. Right not all they have is change.

The roster isn't built for a west coast offense, yet Vinny went out and got Zorn to run it. Why?

[mcgraw238]

And I'll dig up all the articles that talked about players approaching Snyder directly because of their distaste in Marty as coach...all the game stats that showed Marty's offense being absolutely putrid...all the head-scratching player personnel decisions Marty made and those player's production and contributions...and all the articles that talked about how much Snyder wanted Spurrier as the next Redskins' coach back when he first took over the reigns.

I remember Bruce Smith crying to Snyder about camp being to tough. The offense was putrid after Marty decided to part ways with Jeff George and go with Tony Banks. Larry Centers was a prima donna who wanted to be a fullback that didn't block. The club needed cleansing when Marty took over. After the 0-5 start, that team was playing as physical as any Redskin team I can recall. S. Davis running the ball was unstoppable. The defense was physical. We got incredible play with Kevin Mitchell (RIP) playing middle linebacker and Kenard Lang playing DT. That was by far Lavar's best season as a pro. I watched that team in New Orleans absolutely steam roll the Saints.

No doubt in my mind that had they stayed the course we would have had sustained success. By the end of that season, that is the best I have felt about the direction of the club in a long time. The reasons outlined for Marty's termination were a ruse. It was widely reported that Snyder wasn't having any fun and wanted to be part of the whealing and dealing.

[HailGreen28]

I remember Bruce Smith crying to Snyder about camp being to tough. The offense was putrid after Marty decided to part ways with Jeff George and go with Tony Banks. Larry Centers was a prima donna who wanted to be a fullback that didn't block. The club needed cleansing when Marty took over. After the 0-5 start, that team was playing as physical as any Redskin team I can recall. S. Davis running the ball was unstoppable. The defense was physical. We got incredible play with Kevin Mitchell (RIP) playing middle linebacker and Kenard Lang playing DT. That was by far Lavar's best season as a pro. I watched that team in New Orleans absolutely steam roll the Saints.

No doubt in my mind that had they stayed the course we would have had sustained success. By the end of that season, that is the best I have felt about the direction of the club in a long time. The reasons outlined for Marty's termination were a ruse. It was widely reported that Snyder wasn't having any fun and wanted to be part of the whealing and dealing.

Bingo. I'm going entirely on speculation, but I think Marty got a raw deal. Norv had a reputation of being a soft coach in Landover, beyond that of a "player's coach". Lavar getting prima donna treatment on par with CP rumors.

Sure Marty wasn't liked. ever play for a coach you didn't like but respected. The team finishing 8-8 after a putrid start, in what was indeed a rebuilding year, speaks volumes to Marty's coaching prowess.

Too bad poor little rich kid Danny couldn't stand to be without his real-life fantasy football game more than a year.

[The Tris]

But left tackles taken in the first 5 picks are usually solid for a LONG time.

You sure about that?

LT taken in the first 5 picks 2000-2009

Pro Bowlers:

Chris Samuels (3; 2000)

Joe Thomas (3; 2007)

Jake Long (1; 2008)

Mid-Level Starters:

D'Brickashaw Ferguson (4; 2006)

Levi Brown (5; 2007)

Busts:

BIG Mike Williams (4; 2002)

Robert Gallery (2; 2004)

To Be Determined:

Jason Smith (2; 2009)

It seems to me that say a Top 5 LT being solid for a long time, is

. As with every position, there are good ones, and bad ones.

[Thirtyfive2seven]

You sure about that?

LT taken in the first 5 picks 2000-2009

Pro Bowlers:

Chris Samuels (3; 2000)

Joe Thomas (3; 2007)

Jake Long (1; 2008)

Mid-Level Starters:

D'Brickashaw Ferguson (4; 2006)

Levi Brown (5; 2007)

Busts:

BIG Mike Williams (4; 2002)

Robert Gallery (2; 2004)

To Be Determined:

Jason Smith (2; 2009)

It seems to me that say a Top 5 LT being solid for a long time, is

. As with every position, there are good ones, and bad ones.

My point was to point out that LT in the draft selected in the top 5 were a much better pick than a QB. Maybe you should go back and re-read.

[Thirtyfive2seven]

Too bad poor little rich kid Danny couldn't stand to be without his real-life fantasy football game more than a year.

I said that earlier and the argument was Marty made horrible decisions so Dan wanted to renegotiate so he had more say in personnel decisions (hire a GM). Marty declined and thus fired.

I agree with you. Danny wanted to have his say and Marty said, sorry but you have NO CLUE what you're talking about so I will handle that aspect of things.

One awesome season later and Marty was gone.

The skins have stunk ever since aside from 2 years under Gibbs 2.0.

[Jeff in D.C.]

I started another thread about this, but no one is really looking at it so I'll post it here as well. Breaking down Vinny's moves in the years he's been here......

Vinny's good/great moves: (* - may have been a Joe Gibbs move)

Drafted Samuels & Lavar in 2000

Drafted Ladell Betts in the 2nd round (02)

Drafted Rock Cartwright in the 7th round (02)

Drafted Derrick Dockery in the 3rd round (03)

Drafted Sean Taylor in the 1st round* (04)

Drafted Chris Cooley in the 3rd round* (04)

Drafted Rocky McIntosh in the 2nd round* (06)

Drafted Reed Doughty in the 6th round* (06)

Drafted Kedric Golston in the 6th round* (06)

Drafted Chris Horton in the 7th round (08)

Drafted Justin Tryon in the 4th round (08) (has played pretty well in a limited role so far)

Drafted Orakpo in the 1st round (09) - although my dog would have drafted Orakpo

Drafted Jeremy Jarmon, 3rd round supplemental draft (09)

Drafted Marko Mitchell in the 7th round (09)

Traded for CP*

Traded for Santana Moss*

Traded for Brunell* (he did get the team to the playoffs)

Signed Randy Thomas

Signed Mike Sellers*

Signed Ryan Clark*

Signed Casey Rabach*

Signed Pete Kendall*

Signed Todd Yoder*

Signed Marcus Washington*

Signed London Fletcher*

Signed Shawn Springs*

Signed Andre Carter*

Signed Phillip Daniels*

Signed Cornelius Griffin*

Signed Haynesworth (although it was because Danny told him to)

Signed Hunter Smith (best P the Skins have had in years)

Found Sean Suisham (best K the Skins have had in years)

Found Chris Wilson (good pass rusher)

Vinny's bad moves:

Drafted Carlos Rogers* over D. Ware & S. Merriman

Gave up a ton of picks to move up and draft Jason Campbell*

Gave up picks for Brandon Lloyd*

Drafted LL over both APete & Patrick Willis*

Drafted Taylor Jacobs in the 2nd round (although let's face it this was a heavily influenced Spurrier pick)

Signed Adam Archuleta*

Traded for T.J. Duckett*

Didn't draft OL in 1st/2nd rounds in 08-09

Gave up way too much money to sign MeAngelo

the 08 2nd round picks (could have had Eddie Royal & DeSean Jackson for example)

Traded a 2nd round pick for Jason Taylor (this could be viewed as either a good or bad move)

Gave too much money to ARE*

Hiring Zorny given his lack of experience

As funny as this sounds, I am going to defend Vinny not drafting OL between 02-07 (I won't defend not drafting OL the last two drafts). Keep in mind, 02-07 you had Samuels & Jansen at T, Dockery/Kendell at LG, Rabach at C, and Randy Thomas at RG. Anyone drafted in the 1st/2nd round would have been sitting on the bench making alot of money, not to mention may have left via free agency by the time they would have gotten playing time.

We don't know how much of an influence or decision making Joe Gibbs really had with personnel decisions during his time here, so 04-07 is a bit cloudy as to how much credit Vinny gets for the good moves and how much blame he gets for the bad moves that were made.

Now Vinny's good moves far outweigh his bad ones, but the major problem most people have with Vinny, including myself, is on two levels:

1. His philosophy - listen to Danny, sign big names, overpay overrated players and the picks he has missed on have been HUGE mistakes and have cost the team in certain areas; drafting certain guys based on reputation rather than how their individual skills fit in with the philosophy of the offense or defense (for example Fred Davis is drafted probably just because he won the Macky award rather than how he specifically fit in considering Cooley is a pro-bowler and was only 26 at the time Davis was drafted)

2. What Vinny represents, which is someone who is Danny's puppet who is going to do whatever Danny wants and won't think and do things based on what he knows is best for the team.

[The Tris]

My point was to point out that LT in the draft selected in the top 5 were a much better pick than a QB. Maybe you should go back and re-read.

Ok, QBs drafted in the top five of draft 2000-2009

Pro Bowlers:

Eli Manning (1; 2004)

Philip Rivers (4; 2004)

Carson Palmer (1; 2003)

Mid-Level Starters:

Matt Ryan (3; 2008)

Something in Between:

Vince Young (3; 2006)

Alex Smith (1; 2005)

Michael Vick (1; 2001)

Busts:

Jamarcus Russell (1; 2007)

David Carr (1; 2002)

Joey Harrington (3; 2002)

To Be Determined:

Matt Stafford (1; 2009)

Mark Sanchez (5; 2009)

Its not like its THAT much worse for QBs, especially considering where Ryan is headed and the promising starts for this year's QB.

My point was, it's not like LT are obviously safer in the top 5 than QB, as you claimed.

[The Tris]

As funny as this sounds, I am going to defend Vinny not drafting OL between 02-07 (I won't defend not drafting OL the last two drafts). Keep in mind, 02-07 you had Samuels & Jansen at T, Dockery/Kendell at LG, Rabach at C, and Randy Thomas at RG. Anyone drafted in the 1st/2nd round would have been sitting on the bench making alot of money, not to mention may have left via free agency by the time they would have gotten playing time.

You can draft OL in rounds other than the first, and they don't have to make a lot of money. Second rounders aren't exactly breaking the salary cap.

Case in point...Pats have a pro bowl LT in Matt Light, but what do they do in the second round this year, they draft Sebastian Vollmer, who stepped in when Light went down last week and Vollmer stoned Dwight Freeney. Not everything has to be done in the first round.

This speaks to a lack of developing depth, which is a critical problem, especially with the line.

[HailGreen28]

I said that earlier and the argument was Marty made horrible decisions so Dan wanted to renegotiate so he had more say in personnel decisions (hire a GM). Marty declined and thus fired.

I agree with you. Danny wanted to have his say and Marty said, sorry but you have NO CLUE what you're talking about so I will handle that aspect of things.

One awesome season later and Marty was gone.

The skins have stunk ever since aside from 2 years under Gibbs 2.0.

Well put.

[jnhay]

How do we know how much influence Vinny had throughout all these drafts? We know that he's had a huge influence since Zorn has gotten here, but beyond that how can you be sure?

[NoVaSkins21]

Vinny, plain and simple, is a GOD AWFUL GM. Unless he absolutely has to, will not go OL and DL in the draft. Samuels is the lineman he's ever taken with a 1st round pick. I'm not counting Orakpo because Blache and Co. decided it was much better to convert him to an OLB. :doh: The guy sucks when it comes to drafting for depth. There's no substance to his picks, only flash. The only shrewd move he's ever made is getting Cooley, but even that involved giving up picks to move up.

[jnhay]

Why do people keep calling him our GM?

[Jeff in D.C.]

You can draft OL in rounds other than the first, and they don't have to make a lot of money. Second rounders aren't exactly breaking the salary cap.

Case in point...Pats have a pro bowl LT in Matt Light, but what do they do in the second round this year, they draft Sebastian Vollmer, who stepped in when Light went down last week and Vollmer stoned Dwight Freeney. Not everything has to be done in the first round.

This speaks to a lack of developing depth, which is a critical problem, especially with the line.

True, but there has to be adequate talent at the position if you are going to draft it, rather than reach for a mediocre OL over a really good skill player. No question Vinny dropped the ball the last two years, but the OL was pretty much set in stone between 02-07. Other positions you can draft and work into the lineup, i.e. RB, TE, WR, DB, LB but OL isn't one of them. So if they had spent a 2nd round pick on a tackle or guard and the starters don't get hurt, dude is just sitting on the bench for years. I agree they have needed depth, but I can comprehend the philosophy between 02-07.

[NoVaSkins21]

Why do people keep calling him our GM?

Somebody has to take the blame for the incompetence. I know you probably think Snyder's the GM, but he can't be fired.

[veteranskinsfan]

SteveMcqueen 1- You say he has been our best player on defense I assume. It does take two linemen to block him. If he does not play against Dallas as reported how will you feel then? I said we overpaid for him. Have you heard Sam Huff make fun of him on the radio this season? Huff makes jokes every time he falls down and can't get off the field for a while. I hope he will come back next year in better shape.

[Going Commando]

SteveMcqueen 1- You say he has been our best player on defense I assume. It does take two linemen to block him. If he does not play against Dallas as reported how will you feel then? I said we overpaid for him. Have you heard Sam Huff make fun of him on the radio this season? Huff makes jokes every time he falls down and can't get off the field for a while. I hope he will come back next year in better shape.

Yes he has been our best defender. If he misses Dallas then he misses the game. He sprained his ankle, most guys wouldn't play on that. It doesn't change the fact that he's the most dominant player on the field when he's out there. The guy misses one or two games a year. It's not like he's Bob Sanders and goes on IR halfway through every season.

His conditioning is fine, he just takes a pounding because of his play style. He charges the QB with reckless abandon and he gets knocked around. He's a big player who's always going to play between 325-345 pounds but he's still as quick as a cat. I'll take his mass and power for 60% of the defensive snaps rather than 80% of a less effective player.

Sam Huff is a fogey and a god awful color commentator. I also heard how long it took him to figure out what intentional grounding is. Sonny had to explain it to him for half the game.

[HoyaSkins28]

Who is Roger McIntosh?

[Jeff in D.C.]

Who is Roger McIntosh?

The founder of McIntosh computers.

[Sandman69]

SteveMcqueen 1- You say he has been our best player on defense I assume. It does take two linemen to block him. If he does not play against Dallas as reported how will you feel then? I said we overpaid for him. Have you heard Sam Huff make fun of him on the radio this season? Huff makes jokes every time he falls down and can't get off the field for a while. I hope he will come back next year in better shape.

Yes I agree we paid too much for him. No man is worth that much money...

However, in no disrespect to Sam (he was a great skin), he didn't play in the age of 340ish lb DTs having to get double teamed by around 600lbs of offense linemen who are double teaming him...

The Sam Huff of yesteryear, probably wouldn't make it on a team nowadays...

Before everyone jumps on that... Sam Huff playing in todays sport would crush the Sam Huff playing in his day. And the Sam Huff playing today would definitely make MANY teams.

Big AL is having a huge impact on our team. And NO DT plays 100% of the defensive plays.