Thirtyfive2seven Posted November 19, 2009 Author Share Posted November 19, 2009 I think Roger McIntosh belongs in the "who?" category. I think you belong in the who category Sorry for the Typo! LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 I hate you I think you're right I will edit the post and remove 99 and 01! :rotflmao: But like you said, your point still holds even without those two drafts, unfortunately... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drastik Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 McCants wasnt too bad for us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 I don't doubt you but I think we need facts before making that statement. That's like saying Al Saunders was Snyders idea. Or Lewis (current play caller) was Vinny's idea.We don't know for sure, or do we? I don't But that didn't stop you from heaping all the blame on Cerrato for those drafts, eventhough from '04 to '07 Gibbs was team president, meaning responsibility for draft choices go to him. Vinny's role under Gibbs, as Director of Player Personnell, had him gather info on players and weigh in with his own opinion on the player, but he wasn't directly responisble for draft picks like he is now as VP. That's why so many said, when Cerrato got the promotion, that his new title holds him directly responsible. So really it's just the two past drafts we can defintievely look at as having the Cerrato stamp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Yep. Gregg Williams had to convince Gibbs to take Sean Taylor. I think we were going to take Winslow. JC was definitely a Joe Gibbs pick. Basically, Desmond Howard 2.0.My biggest problem with Cerrato is that he's there to undermine any coach not named Gibbs. He's Snyder way of getting into personnel decisions. I don't mind a GM "undermining" the coach in terms of talent and draft picks when they feel it's necessary...that's their job. Now, doing so ONLY because Snyder dictates him to do so is another story (if that is indeed happening, that is). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bay Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 I don't totally agree about the 2000 draft and that anyone could get it right. If Courtney Brown hadn't been selected number 1, we would've ended up with him instead of Arrington. Arrington's career wasn't stellar but it was miles ahead of Brown's. The draft is never 100% clear cut. Even the gimme's aren't that easy. That's just one thing I remember. The draft is so fluid and hard to predict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 And yet still people blindly defend this clown, and wonder why many of us are prepared to suffer through the pain of a 3 win season to finally remove one of the biggest current problems this organization has on it's books. :doh:.Thank you for taking the time to research and put it up in black and white for all to see Thirtyfive2seven man. Nice nick btw, particularly it being Dallas week. Hail. Excuse me, but people don't "blindly defend" Cerrato. If anything I'd say it's the reverse, that most like to blindly prosecute him, using generalizations instead of accounted responsibility and actual break downs of decisions. That kind of research is a rarity on ES these days. People, like myself, actually look at the whole picture, who was drafted, why, who was drafted around them, why. Maybe you're just too dismissive of those who disagree with you, so you've missed all the evidence used, as opposed to lazily just asserting a bunch of generalizations. Search my created threads, there aren't many. I've done this kind of research and shared with ES before. I did so on the Oline and who was available when we picked in the draft. You bash the side that disagrees with you as blind supporters, but then applaud a simple cut and paste job with improper accreditation for responisbility as taking time to research and showing things in black and white. Umm, an actual example of such would be to show who was responsible for which picks each season, showing who else was available at the time, and comparing that to the success of each. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thirtyfive2seven Posted November 19, 2009 Author Share Posted November 19, 2009 But that didn't stop you from heaping all the blame on Cerrato for those drafts, eventhough from '04 to '07 Gibbs was team president, meaning responsibility for draft choices go to him. Vinny's role under Gibbs, as Director of Player Personnell, had him gather info on players and weigh in with his own opinion on the player, but he wasn't directly responisble for draft picks like he is now as VP.That's why so many said, when Cerrato got the promotion, that his new title holds him directly responsible. So really it's just the two past drafts we can defintievely look at as having the Cerrato stamp. We have a difference of opinion. I am under the impression that Gibbs 2.0 was too busy with Nascar to be involved in those decisions. It was reported that way - and I'm inclined to believe that. Therefore, yes I still point the finger at Vinny. Either way we won't be able to prove who was calling the shots there. I think it was Vinny and you think it was Gibbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thirtyfive2seven Posted November 19, 2009 Author Share Posted November 19, 2009 Excuse me, but people don't "blindly defend" Cerrato. People, like myself, actually look at the whole picture, who was drafted, why, who was drafted around them, why. Maybe you're just too dismissive of those who disagree with you, so you've missed all the evidence used, as opposed to lazily just asserting a bunch of generalizations.You bash the side that disagrees with you as blind supporters, but then applaud a simple cut and paste job with improper accreditation for responisbility as taking time to research and showing things in black and white. Umm, an actual example of such would be to show who was responsible for which picks each season, showing who else was available at the time, and comparing that to the success of each. LOL you come up with a topic then and PROVE without a doubt who was in charge at the time of the pick. I'll be happy to post in that thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADF Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 I don't mind a GM "undermining" the coach in terms of talent and draft picks when they feel it's necessary...that's their job. Now, doing so ONLY because Snyder dictates him to do so is another story (if that is indeed happening, that is). I agree with you. That's why I'm strongly in favor of a strong, competent GM with the long term interests of the team in mind. I just don't think that's Vinny. He doesn't have the resume to stand up to Snyder. Someone who did could tell Snyder to back off because he can find a job elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thirtyfive2seven Posted November 19, 2009 Author Share Posted November 19, 2009 I don't mind a GM "undermining" the coach in terms of talent and draft picks when they feel it's necessary...that's their job. Now, doing so ONLY because Snyder dictates him to do so is another story (if that is indeed happening, that is). Exactly, and I won't even touch that can of worms even if I think that may be the case. My only evidence to support that is Marty was fired/quit because Snyder wanted to have his 'say' in personnel decisions. Why? I have NO idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thirtyfive2seven Posted November 19, 2009 Author Share Posted November 19, 2009 I agree with you. That's why I'm strongly in favor of a strong, competent GM with the long term interests of the team in mind. I just don't think that's Vinny. He doesn't have the resume to stand up to Snyder. Someone who did could tell Snyder to back off because he can find a job elsewhere. And just like Marty, Snyder would get rid of him because he's not having any fun playing fantasy football Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BornToHail Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 I remember this one from watching the HBO hardknocks that covered the Bengals. Carson's younger brother. Uh yeah, that's about it. he has the website that tells you when to go pee during a movie! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 We have a difference of opinion. I am under the impression that Gibbs 2.0 was too busy with Nascar to be involved in those decisions. It was reported that way - and I'm inclined to believe that. Therefore, yes I still point the finger at Vinny. Either way we won't be able to prove who was calling the shots there. I think it was Vinny and you think it was Gibbs. Evidence? I have never seen a report which suggested Gibbs wasn't very involved with the team because of NASCAR. Why are you even inclined to believe it? Nothing about Gibbs' peronality and character have ever said he has a lack of commitment while on the job. I can prove it was GIbbs because, again, he was TEAM PRESIDENT. So outside of your convenient speculation, we have a title for Gibbs that shows he is held responsible over all others for '04 to '07, and we have a title for Cerrato which suggests he was an information gatherer and contributed in the decision-making process. Like I also said, I wouldn't mind some fair judgement here. Like showing who else was available when we picked, or comparing Cerrato's draft choices to other GM's choices, as another poster suggested. There is no context to your OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 I don't totally agree about the 2000 draft and that anyone could get it right. If Courtney Brown hadn't been selected number 1, we would've ended up with him instead of Arrington. Arrington's career wasn't stellar but it was miles ahead of Brown's. The draft is never 100% clear cut. Even the gimme's aren't that easy.That's just one thing I remember. The draft is so fluid and hard to predict. That is a generic criticism that gets aimed at Vinny/Snyder way too much..."Arrington and Samuels were no-brainers, anyone would have picked them". Yeah, because all the players picked in the top 3 always turn out to be Pro-Bowlers lol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boobiemiles Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Honestly this all subjective. I think Vinny can pick good players, i.e. Terrel Owens, Dana Stubblefield, Chris Cooley, Chris Horton. In order for us to get a true assessment of his skills at evaluating talent, we need clear division of duties. I would like to see his record compared to Jerry Jones, who employs the same model regarding the draft. I am not feeling Vinny right now, but he has some ability, we just need a constructive infrastructure to see the degree of that ability.....I hope Dan SNyder is not hard headed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thirtyfive2seven Posted November 19, 2009 Author Share Posted November 19, 2009 That is a generic criticism that gets aimed at Vinny/Snyder way too much..."Arrington and Samuels were no-brainers, anyone would have picked them". Yeah, because all the players picked in the top 3 always turn out to be Pro-Bowlers lol... Well no, but Left Tackles and Linebackers that are everyone's choice for the top 1-3 picks (Brown being the other)... If you were talking about a Quarterback(s) then I agree. But left tackles taken in the first 5 picks are usually solid for a LONG time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 LOL you come up with a topic then and PROVE without a doubt who was in charge at the time of the pick. I'll be happy to post in that thread. LOL, I'm not the one who created this thread and tried to heap all responsibility conveniently on one person and added zero context to his argument. Who was in charge earlier on can't be proven "without a doubt" to someone like you because you are preferring to believe conspiracy and speculation to the presented, but maybe not, actuality. So there will always be doubt. However, I have something concrete to back my beliefs in who was responsible, and that's job titles and the responsibilities which come with them. You have speculation with no links. Of course some actual context, like who else was available, or how other GMs have fared, would be nice too, but that is a lot of reserach, though it would be appropriate in truley determining Cerrato's draft abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 That is a generic criticism that gets aimed at Vinny/Snyder way too much..."Arrington and Samuels were no-brainers, anyone would have picked them". Yeah, because all the players picked in the top 3 always turn out to be Pro-Bowlers lol... Ryan Leaf was a no-brainer, so was Courtney Brown, and Kellen Winslow Jr., and Mike Williams WR, etc., to further your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Exactly, and I won't even touch that can of worms even if I think that may be the case. My only evidence to support that is Marty was fired/quit because Snyder wanted to have his 'say' in personnel decisions. Why? I have NO idea. My personal belief is that Marty was fired because 1) he caused a near mutiny among the players, 2) his offense was absolutely pathetic, even worse than Zorn's offense at IT'S worse, 3) Marty's personnel decisions weren't exactly stellar--he got rid of Larry Centers, took Gardner over Santana Moss and went ga ga for Kevin stinkin' Lockett, fer cripes sake lol...and 4) Spurrier suddenly became available, who was one of Snyder's top 2 head coaching choices when he bought the Skins. Now, it may be convenient to think that Snyder just needed to "meddle" and so he fired a quality coach who actually stood up to him lol...but there is a lot of evidence to the contrary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thirtyfive2seven Posted November 19, 2009 Author Share Posted November 19, 2009 My personal belief is that Marty was fired because 1) he caused a near mutiny among the players, 2) his offense was absolutely pathetic, even worse than Zorn's offense at IT'S worse, 3) Marty's personnel decisions weren't exactly stellar--he got rid of Larry Centers, took Gardner over Santana Moss and went ga ga for Kevin stinkin' Lockett, fer cripes sake lol...and 4) Spurrier suddenly became available, who was one of Snyder's top 2 head coaching choices when he bought the Skins.Now, it may be convenient to think that Snyder just needed to "meddle" and so he fired a quality coach who actually stood up to him lol...but there is a lot of evidence to the contrary. Wow, dude, no way! I will dig up the article where it says that Dan Snyder wanted more say in personnel decisions. From the Washington Post: Coach Marty Schottenheimer's contract with the Washington Redskins gives team owner Daniel Snyder full authority to hire a front office executive to head the club's player personnel department if he chooses. That leaves open the possibility that Snyder could hire a general manager or an executive with GM-like powers this offseason who would report to Snyder, not Schottenheimer, and oversee the retooling of the team's roster. Schottenheimer acknowledged yesterday that Snyder retained that right under the terms of the coach's contract. So that was just an excuse to fire Marty, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 We don't know for sure, or do we? I don't If you weren't sure about it, why did you post it as a definitive fact? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grantarchy Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 I think the real problem is the LACK of draft picks across those years. I counted them up for 1999 - 2009 using the NFC East division as a point of comparison. The team with least picks for each year in RED. 2009 Dallas 12 NYG 8 Philly 8 Redskins 6 2008 Redskins 10 Philly 10 NYG 7 Dallas 6 2007 NYG 8 Dallas 8 Philly 8 Redskins 5 2006 Dallas 8 Philly 8 NYG 7 Redskins 6 2005 Philly 11 Dallas 8 Redskins 6 NYG 4 2004 Philly 10 Dallas 8 NYG 7 Redskins 4 2003 NYG 11 Dallas 7 Philly 6 Redskins 3 2002 Redskins 10 Dallas 9 Philly 8 NYG 7 2001 Dallas 9 NYG 7 Philly 6 Redskins 5 2000 Redskins 8 NYG 7 Philly 7 Dallas 5 1999 NYG 10 Philly 10 Dallas 8 Redskins 6 Totals over that span Redskins 69 NYG 83 (+14) Dallas 88 (+19) Philly 92 (+23) So 7 out of the last 11 years, we've had the least amount of draft picks in the NFC East. While other teams have been building for the future or at least remained relatively consistent, we have stubbornly been mortaging it away for the next bling in FA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Wow, dude, no way! I will dig up the article where it says that Dan Snyder wanted more say in personnel decisions. And I'll dig up all the articles that talked about players approaching Snyder directly because of their distaste in Marty as coach...all the game stats that showed Marty's offense being absolutely putrid...all the head-scratching player personnel decisions Marty made and those player's production and contributions...and all the articles that talked about how much Snyder wanted Spurrier as the next Redskins' coach back when he first took over the reigns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braxford Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 2006 was obviously vinny's best year, with most of the players being solid contributors on defense. The rest of the years for the most part the 1st round pick was almost a no brainer. The other years=:chair:The "trifecta" of 2008 must step up for the Skins future regardless of whether vinny is around or not. All three of them need serious playing time this season. Not just here and there or because of injuries. It is time to start sinking or swimming, even if they still have their floaties on because of the overall offensive struggles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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