Thirtyfive2seven Posted November 19, 2009 Author Share Posted November 19, 2009 And I'll dig up all the articles that talked about players approaching Snyder directly because of their distaste in Marty as coach...all the game stats that showed Marty's offense being absolutely putrid...all the head-scratching player personnel decisions Marty made and those player's production and contributions...and all the articles that talked about how much Snyder wanted Spurrier as the next Redskins' coach back when he first took over the reigns. I'll get you I don't disagree with what you are saying. All of that was in fact true, but player personnel decisions had a large factor into that equation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redskins4ever Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Cerratto has picked some excellent players. Cerratto has also picked lousy players. But 2008 was a bad draft for him. He should have chosen Devin Thomas, and two offensive lineman. I like Malcolm Kelly and Fred Davis, but the Redskins didn't need either one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thirtyfive2seven Posted November 19, 2009 Author Share Posted November 19, 2009 And I'll dig up all the articles that talked about players approaching Snyder directly because of their distaste in Marty as coach...all the game stats that showed Marty's offense being absolutely putrid...all the head-scratching player personnel decisions Marty made and those player's production and contributions...and all the articles that talked about how much Snyder wanted Spurrier as the next Redskins' coach back when he first took over the reigns. The Redskins stated that the Club has concluded it is in the best interests of the team to hire an experienced professional to oversee non-coaching player personnel matters. According to the Redskins, Coach Schottenheimer was offered a number of opportunities to modify his contract in order to change responsibility for non-coaching player personnel matters. Schottenheimer's contract would have remained the same except for control over final decisions in the event of disagreement in player personnel matters. Owner Daniel Snyder was quoted as saying "The head coach position is a very demanding, year-round job. It is very difficult for one individual to successfully perform the head coach duties while maintaining responsibility for scouting and player personnel functions, including salary cap management, agent/player negotiation, analysis of college and professional players, recommendations for trades, draft picks and free agent selections." And who is this experienced person you ask - Vinny! This sounds to me VERY much like Dan wanting to keep Marty as the head coach, why else would he be offered 'numerous opporunities to modify his contract...' ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSO Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Great jobs Elkabong and Califan countering this a bit. Your guy's words have been much needed in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Wow, dude, no way! I will dig up the article where it says that Dan Snyder wanted more say in personnel decisions.From the Washington Post: Coach Marty Schottenheimer's contract with the Washington Redskins gives team owner Daniel Snyder full authority to hire a front office executive to head the club's player personnel department if he chooses. That leaves open the possibility that Snyder could hire a general manager or an executive with GM-like powers this offseason who would report to Snyder, not Schottenheimer, and oversee the retooling of the team's roster. Schottenheimer acknowledged yesterday that Snyder retained that right under the terms of the coach's contract. So that was just an excuse to fire Marty, right? How exactly does that negate what I said earlier about one of the reasons Marty was fired was because of his piss-poor personnel decisions? YOUR claim, though, was that Snyder personally wanted more control over player acquisition that Marty wouldn't let him have if he stayed on as coach, so Snyder fired him. However, this article clearly states that Marty did NOT dictate whether or not Snyder could take back the player personnel decision making from Marty and give it to a new GM. In short, Snyder didn't fire Marty in order to regain control over player personnel...because Snyder ALWAYS had that option if he chose to exercise it. Marty even acknowledges that he did. Snyder told Marty he could stay on as head coach if he gave up the "GM" duties. They didn't agree, and parted ways. Ironically enough, San Diego said practically the SAME DAMN THING to Marty when he went there lol...coincidence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thirtyfive2seven Posted November 19, 2009 Author Share Posted November 19, 2009 How exactly does that negate what I said earlier about one of the reasons Marty was fired was because of his piss-poor personnel decisions? YOUR claim, though, was that Snyder personally wanted more control over player acquisition that Marty wouldn't let him have if he stayed on as coach, so Snyder fired him. However, this article clearly states that Marty did NOT dictate whether or not Snyder could take back the player personnel decision making from Marty and give it to a new GM. In shorty, Snyder didn't fire Marty in order to regain control over player personnel...because Snyder ALWAYS had that option if he chose to exercise it. Marty even acknowledges that he did. Snyder told Marty he could stay on as head coach if he gave up the "GM" duties. They didn't agree, and parted ways. Ironically enough, San Diego said practically the SAME DAMN THING to Marty when he went there lol...coincidence? ok so Snyder always has a say and you are comfortable with that? Now Vinny And Snyder have a say in decisions? Either way I think my original point is still valid and that is beyond the 2nd round Vinny sucks at GM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cphil006 Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 I think Vinny can only be given credit for 2000, 2003 and 2008-2009. 1999 was Casserly. 2001 was Marty. I'm not sure about 2002. I seem to remember another guy being involved since Vinny had spent the previous year at ESPN. 2004-2007 was run by the coaches. Vinny was hired AFTER the 1999 season... Casserly was fired June 1999. AFTER he drafted Bailey and came away with a bunch of extra picks for the next season. Arrington, Samuels, Sean Taylor, Brian Orakpo were ALL no-brainers... 2004-2007 weren't run by the coaches... it was a group effort and they get their info for their rankings... Gibbs even said it was structured with Owner-Vinny-Head Coach... YOU just can't pin those drafts on "the coaches" They have no time to scout... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cphil006 Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Cerratto has picked some excellent players. Cerratto has also picked lousy players. But 2008 was a bad draft for him. He should have chosen Devin Thomas, and two offensive lineman. I like Malcolm Kelly and Fred Davis, but the Redskins didn't need either one of them. Joe Gibbs left a playoff team... with a young QB/RB and a good defense.... Vinny has had TWO offseasons to address an aging and thin offensive line. He has failed to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Great jobs Elkabong and Califan countering this a bit. Your guy's words have been much needed in this thread. I myself have some issues with Cerrato's drafting the past 2 seasons, mainly I believe he should have broken off of BPA in the 2-4 rounds and picked up another OL or two besides Rinehart (who is looking good now that he's back healthy) the past 2 drafts, given the situation on the OL. If he planned on Heyer replacing Samuels and Mike Williams taking over at RT, that is a poor plan since Williams was not a proven commodity, but a risk. Rinehart could step in for Thomas, and has now, Rabach is ok at center, and he brought Dockery back for LG. Some could argue, and do, that sticking with BPA was still the way to go. If there's not a 2nd round graded OL you don;t reach by grabbing a 3rd rd rated one in the 2nd. But I believe that Cerrato needs to allow circumstances and immediate needs to have more precendent/impact on the overall BPA philosophy than what has been allowed thus far. I am a strong believer in BPA, but I do believe the OL was a dire enough situation to where we should have reached this past draft and maybe taken an OL instead of Barnes, eventhough there were no good OL graded for that round remaining, evidenced by none being picked until the following round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robotfire Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 I'm actually impressed by that resume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phishisthegreatstuff Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 someone should pull up the patriots, steelers, eagles or giants drafts from the past 10 years and see what their success rate is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cphil006 Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 The biggest blunder I've seen... is Vinny finding Spurrier his starting Running Back: TRUNG CANIDATE... That alone is grounds for dismissal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Joe Gibbs left a playoff team... with a young QB/RB and a good defense....Vinny has had TWO offseasons to address an aging and thin offensive line. He has failed to do so. In all fairness he drafted Rinehart who is starting to look decent at RG, and he brought Dockery back. In the 2008 draft, only 2 OL were taken in the 2nd round, Chilo Rachal, picked after Devin Thomas but before the other 2, and Mike Pollack, picked 8 picks after Kelly. So a fair argument could be made we should have gone with Pollack. We didn't draft Rinehart until the next round, so it may have been a good idea, especially since Kendall and Thomas were our guards at this time. But I have also seen many say we should have taken DL there, usually saying Calais Campbell, some said Groves, others said Jason Jones. Basically the opinions change based on what the weakness wind up being that season, so that is a bit influential this season. For example: for all we know, we could be sitting here today with a bunch of OL drafted in the 2nd, and people are complaining one should have been a WR since that area isn;t doing well. This past draft we had Orakpo or Oher. Even knowing the OL problems now I still take Orakpo over Oher, he was the better rated player and has done well this season so far. Then we picked again in the 3rd, and right before our pick an OT and 4 OGs are picked. Another OL wasn't taken until the 4th round. I say we could have reached and gotten the needed OT with TJ Lang who was picked early 4th, but that's a question of adherence to draft philosophy, and I can respect both sides of the argument on how much need should be factored in the decision. In other words, the ability to completely revamp the OL hasn't been there, and typically that kind of move takes a few season anyways. We got lucky with the DL that fell into place and we revamped it in one offseason, we've slowly done it for the OL, but I agree another 1 or 2 moves should have gone to OL the past 2 years, specifically at OT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disegn Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 In comparison to Scott Pioli with New England 2000-2008: I think it's fair to say every GM hits and misses, its part of the game. Vinny isn't terrible because he has picked players such as Orakpo, Sean Taylor, Cooley, etc. But what Pioli does is stack a lot of CBs and TEs for some reason and sprinkles an LB, OL or DL in every draft. 2008 Round Pick Overall Name Position School 1 10 10 Jerod Mayo ILB Tennessee 2 31 62 Terrence Wheatley CB Colorado 3 15 78 Shawn Crable OLB Michigan 3 31 94 Kevin O'Connell QB San Diego State 4 30 129 Jonathan Wilhite CB Auburn 5 18 153 Matt Slater WR California - Los Angeles 6 31 197 Bo Ruud OLB Nebraska 2007 Round Pick Overall Name Position School 1 24 24 Brandon Meriweather S Miami 5 34 171 Clint Oldenburg OT Colorado State 6 6 180 Justin Rogers DE SMU 6 28 202 Mike Richardson CB Notre Dame 6 34 208 Justise Hairston RB Central Connecticut 6 35 209 Corey Hilliard OT Oklahoma State 7 1 211 Oscar Lua LB USC 7 37 247 Mike Elgin OG Iowa 2006 Round Pick Overall Name Position School 1 21 21 Laurence Maroney RB Minnesota 2 4 36 Chad Jackson WR Florida 3 22 86 Dave Thomas TE Texas 4 9 106 Garrett Mills TE Tulsa 4 21 118 Stephen Gostkowski PK Memphis 5 3 136 Ryan O'Callaghan OG California 6 22 191 Jeremy Mincey DE Florida 6 36 205 Le Kevin Smith DT Nebraska 7 21 229 Willie Andrews S Baylor 2005 Round Pick Overall Name Position School 1 32 32 Logan Mankins OG Fresno State 3 20 84 Ellis Hobbs CB Iowa State 3 37 100 Nick Kaczur OG Toledo 4 32 133 James Sanders S Fresno State 5 34 170 Ryan Claridge LB Nevada-Las Vegas 7 16 230 Matt Cassell QB Southern California 7 41 255 Andy Stokes TE William Penn 2004 Round Pick Overall Name Position School 1 21 21 Vince Wilfork DT Miami 1 32 32 Ben Watson TE Florida 2 31 63 Marquise Hill DE LSU 3 32 95 Scott Guss S Florida 4 17 113 Dexter Reid S North Carolina 4 32 128 Cedric Cobbs RB Arkansas 5 32 164 P.K. Sam WR Florida State 7 32 233 Christian Morton CB Illinois 2003 Round Pick Overall Name Position School 1 13 13 Ty Warren DT Texas A&M 2 4 36 Eugene Wilson CB Illinois 2 13 45 Bethel Johnson WR Texas A&M 4 20 117 Dan Klecko DT Temple 4 23 120 Asante Samuel CB Central Florida 5 29 164 Dan Koppen C Boston College 6 28 201 Kliff Kingsbury QB Texas Tech 7 20 234 Spencer Nead TE Brigham Young 7 25 239 Tully Banta-Cain DE California 7 29 243 Ethan Kelly DT Baylor 2002 Round Pick Overall Name Position School 1 21 21 Daniel Graham TE Colorado 2 33 65 Deion Branch WR Louisville 4 19 117 Rohan Davey QB LSU 4 28 126 Jarvis Green DE LSU 7 26 237 Antwoine Womack RB Virginia 7 42 253 David Givens WR Notre Dame 2001 Round Pick Overall Name Position School 1 6 6 Richard Seymour DT Georgia 2 17 48 Matt Light OT Purdue 3 24 86 Brock Williams DB Notre Dame 4 1 96 Kenyatta Jones OT South Florida 4 24 119 Jabari Holloway TE Notre Dame 5 32 163 Hakim Akbar DB Washington 6 17 180 Arthur Love TE South Carolina State 6 37 200 Leonard Myers DB Miami 7 16 216 Owen Pochman K Brigham Young 7 39 239 T.J. Turner LB Michigan State 2000 Round Pick Overall Name Position School 2 15 46 Adrian Klemm OT Hawaii 3 14 76 J.R. Redmond RB Arizona State 4 33 127 Greg Robinson-Randall OT Michigan State 5 12 141 Dave Stachelski TE Boise State 5 32 161 Jeff Marriott DT Missouri 6 21 187 Antwan Harris DB Virginia 6 33 199 Tom Brady QB Michigan 6 35 201 David Nugent DT Purdue 7 20 226 Casey Tisdale LB New Mexico 7 33 239 Patrick Pass RB Georgia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 The biggest blunder I've seen... is Vinny finding Spurrier his starting Running Back:TRUNG CANIDATE... That alone is grounds for dismissal. Trung was a first round draft pick by St. Louis, and the Skins got him for Dave Loverne and a 4th rounder. Cerrato also drafted Ladell Betts for Spurrier, if we're giving Cerrato credit for the decisions made in the Spurrier years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destructis Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Something I would like to see is the draft picks traded, who we received for them and who was drafted with that pick. Add that to your draft list and you will have a true tale of the tape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADF Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Vinny was hired AFTER the 1999 season...Casserly was fired June 1999. AFTER he drafted Bailey and came away with a bunch of extra picks for the next season. I know this. Why did you reply to my post with this tidbit of info? Did I give you any indication that this wasn't the case? Arrington, Samuels, Sean Taylor, Brian Orakpo were ALL no-brainers... As others have said, there is no such thing as "no-brainers" when it comes to the draft. I find that to be a silly argument. Highly touted players fail all the time. Guys like Desmond Howard, Heath Shuler, and Michale Westbrook were highly touted coming out of college. 2004-2007 weren't run by the coaches... it was a group effort and they get their info for their rankings... Gibbs even said it was structured with Owner-Vinny-Head Coach... YOU just can't pin those drafts on "the coaches" They have no time to scout... Joe Gibbs had final say on all picks. He and the coaches had significant input on who was drafted. How could the choices not be pinned on them? All of them had a say in it. Vinny too but not like he does now. As a group, I'd say they did a pretty good job when they did select players. While Gibbs made a mistake with the JC pick, he also chose Cooley. Their major mistake was trading away picks for guys like Brandon Lloyd, TJ Duckett, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ouvan59 Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 If you were talking about a Quarterback(s) then I agree. But left tackles taken in the first 5 picks are usually solid for a LONG time. You sure about that? Here is a list of Tackles taken in the top 5 picks from 2000-06 (left out the last couple because it's still too early to determine) 2000 - #3 Chris Samuels - stud 2001 - #2 Leonard Davis - failure at tackle - moved to guard. 2002 - #4 Mike Williams - I've fallen and I can't get up 2003 - None taken 2004 - #2 Robert Gallery - failure at tackle - moved to guard 2005 - None taken 2006 - #4 D'Brickashaw Ferguson - I think the jury is still out. I've got one Jets friend who hates him and one who says he's fine. Anyway, I think this pretty much shows that picking stud tackles isn't as easy as it seems. Typicall most good lines with have one stud first rounder and then the rest of the line is made up of guys that have been developed or grabbed via free agency. We have just developed nobody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Did we even show up for the 2005 draft? That's one heaping stinking pile of crap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Excuse me, but people don't "blindly defend" Cerrato. If anything I'd say it's the reverse, that most like to blindly prosecute him, using generalizations instead of accounted responsibility and actual break downs of decisions. That kind of research is a rarity on ES these days. People, like myself, actually look at the whole picture, who was drafted, why, who was drafted around them, why. Maybe you're just too dismissive of those who disagree with you, so you've missed all the evidence used, as opposed to lazily just asserting a bunch of generalizations. Search my created threads, there aren't many. I've done this kind of research and shared with ES before. I did so on the Oline and who was available when we picked in the draft. You bash the side that disagrees with you as blind supporters, but then applaud a simple cut and paste job with improper accreditation for responisbility as taking time to research and showing things in black and white. Umm, an actual example of such would be to show who was responsible for which picks each season, showing who else was available at the time, and comparing that to the success of each. See elkabong, whether I thought you had a valid case in most of the above or not is sadly irrelevant, as given your previous with others, and non less me, of either twisting out of context or outright lying when things get heated, through ultimately resorting to that ol' bigoted agenda of yours and calling me, what was it, a "racist" for daring to question a guy's football smarts; I'm sad to say I shall no longer run the risk of getting into it again with you, on ANY topic. Good day Sir, and happy posting. Hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gutlead74 Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 I was happy about the landry pick. He has all of the tools to be great, except one the work ethic it takes to be great. See offseason articles to verify this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RabidFan Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 We blow in rounds 2-5 but others we do fine....sad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgbkabkab Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 someone should pull up the patriots, steelers, eagles or giants drafts from the past 10 years and see what their success rate is. It seems like most teams get about the same percentages as the skins...take a look http://www.drafthistory.com/teams_by_year.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 It seems like most teams get about the same percentages as the skins...take a look http://www.drafthistory.com/teams_by_year.html I think though, there are degrees of "success" when it comes to the draft. Let's say that 10 drafted players becoming starters for your team is considered "good" by NFL standards. If the Redskins' 10 players are mediocre starters while Steelers' 10 players include Pro Bowlers, shouldn't that be considered different degrees of success? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 See elkabong, whether I thought you had a valid case in most of the above or not is sadly irrelevant, as given your previous with others, and non less me, of either twisting out of context or outright lying when things get heated, through ultimately resorting to that ol' bigoted agenda of yours and calling me, what was it, a "racist" for daring to question a guy's football smarts; I'm sad to say I shall no longer run the risk of getting into it again with you, on ANY topic.Good day Sir, and happy posting. Hail. You have any examples of me twisting or outright lying? Did you not come in here and say people "blindly defend" Cerrato, when in actuality they back their reasons like they have in this thread? There was no need to try and generalize the other side in this discussion. What bigoted agenda? Or is this more baseless accusations? Yeah, big difference between questioning a guys's football smarts and saying he is mentally slow. But even then I said it looked racist and I even conceded that you weren't being racist, just that you had poorly worded what you meant. The issue was dropped once we clarified it, so why is it an issue again? You and a couple others have tried to bring it up and act like I just threw it out there as a baseless personal attack. Something tells me I would have been banned had that happened, and I haven't been. Seems like the only reason you cling to that is to use as more personal attacks instead of discussing the actual topic. It's your choice not to engage me any further, just as it's your choice not to generalize and attack the other side of an argument, rather than discuss the actual topic at hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.