The Benefit of Sherm Williams Playcalling

[KDawg]

Dude, he punted. What game were you watching?

Erm, are we talking about a different situation? I would have sworn we went for it on 4th down and failed. If that wasn't the case, it was probably because I was blacked out from pain and don't really remember... Yeah, that's the ticket.

[aussieskin]

the 13 points we gifted the eagles from errors was the difference

[TimmySmith]

Erm, are we talking about a different situation? I would have sworn we went for it on 4th down and failed. If that wasn't the case, it was probably because I was blacked out from pain and don't really remember... Yeah, that's the ticket.

I think the poster was referring the long fg that was not attempted then the punt netted 11 yards after the penalty. I wish I could black it out.

[KDawg]

We were talking about different situations. I was talking about when we went for it on fourth down and failed when the announcers were saying you kick the field goal to make it a 14 point game with 6 minutes or so left in the game...

[SoCalSkins]

Yup. He should be fired for trying to get a TD to win the game when the team clearly sucks and we needed a major spark.

Absolutely...

:doh:

Of all the reasons to mention him getting fired, this is by far the worst I've read yet. This forum looks alot like this team... Everyone has completely given up. I think we stink, but man, why not go for it? The season is in the tank, we needed two TDs still anyways.

PS: Who is Sherman Williams? :laugh:

Trying to win the game down 3 scores in the 4th quarter, requires scoring 3 times. You don't give up a FG to risk a 4th down play. Particularly with our 3rd down conversions tonight. You kick the FG and are down 14. That is trying to win.

[KDawg]

Trying to win the game down 3 scores in the 4th quarter, requires scoring 3 times. You don't give up a FG to risk a 4th down play. Particularly with our 3rd down conversions tonight. You kick the FG and are down 14. That is trying to win.

Different philosophies, I guess. It's easier to kick a field goal in the waning seconds of a game than it is to score a TD. When you're that close, down by that much you need to go for the TD. I disagree with Gruden and Jaws there. But, I understand completely what they were saying... If we had an offense that was worth a crap.

[Oldfan]

Different philosophies, I guess. It's easier to kick a field goal in the waning seconds of a game than it is to score a TD. When you're that close, down by that much you need to go for the TD. I disagree with Gruden and Jaws there. But, I understand completely what they were saying... If we had an offense that was worth a crap.

Absolutely. The Skins made the right call in that position.

When I heard Gruden's call, I added one more reason that I wouldn't want him coaching here.

[SoCalSkins]

Different philosophies, I guess. It's easier to kick a field goal in the waning seconds of a game than it is to score a TD. When you're that close, down by that much you need to go for the TD. I disagree with Gruden and Jaws there. But, I understand completely what they were saying... If we had an offense that was worth a crap.

It is not a matter of philosophy. It was an idiotic risk. You need 3 scores. You take the score while you still can. That play ended the game. A FG keeps it going. He also went for it on 4th twice in that drive. The first time was equally idiotic.

Same thing in the Rams game. He should have taken the FG there at the end. Lions as well. You take the points to take the lead. That 4th and 1 was amateur hour.

Zorn is an idiot.

[PorkSkins]

After last night we should go for it on every fourth down inside the 50. The season is over, time to have some fun. I still want to see ARE in the Wild Hog formation.

[Toadslayer]

I don't know about the benefit of Sherm Williams playcalling, but was he texting the plays to Sherm Thompson, who sent them via fax to Sherm Anderson, who emailed them to Sherm Roberts, who then ran down the hall and handed them to Sherm Lewis?

[Gregpeck99]

the playcalling was much much better. when was the last time we scored 2 redzone tds...lol sherm lewis was definately unpredictable, especially down in the redzone. better then 3 runs to the left and a fg haha. campbell however left at least 14 points on the field, one with moss and one with thomas, that could hav ebeen 14 pts right there, but he never sees the whole field. oline blew some @ss along with randle el. campbell has to protect ball better to

Good post Hate ... but I can't help feeling 2nd TD (Davis) was a gimme at end of game. As of now, USC has a better offense than Skins. Skins must get Barkley in 2012!

[RabidFan]

So after 23 games the triplets have combined to pass Roddy White's supposedly poor first season by a few yards. Kudos to them - job well done!

As I said earlier, it wouldn't be fair to judge Davis because he's playing behind Cooley. But who did Kelly and Thomas need to beat out to get playing time - ARE and Thrash. The Skins use three receivers all of the time. While amassing an incredible 120 yards receiving last year, Thomas barely beat out 63 year old James Thrash. Kelly couldn't even come close. And its not like Moss is a legit #1 or ARE is a legit #2.

Its one thing to struggle your first year as a wide receiver. Its another thing to have 3 catches for 18 yards. In their second years, Kelly and Thomas are each averaging 1 catch for 10 yards per game.

Here's a list of second year receivers that have more yards than Kelly and Thomas combined:

Manningham 439

Jackson 423

Sims-Walker 398 (drafted 2007)

Avery 271

Morgan 264

Caldwell 257

Garcon 240

Burton 199

Bess 188

Clowney 151

Meachem 151

Royal 148

A bunch of those guys were drafted 6th round or were UDFAs. What do you need to do to be a bust?

All those WRs have one thing in common, not having Campbell as your QB who always looks for Cooley or Moss or the rb to dump it off too. Many times Thomas is running free downfield but JC won't look his way.

[pez]

[REEGSKINS]

i like all of our young receivers. i think when you have no run game, no o-line, a non confident qb, and most of all santana moss and cris cooley, its hard for them to strive right now. they will in time, but we need whole sale changes around them.

[Oldfan]

It is not a matter of philosophy. It was an idiotic risk. You need 3 scores. You take the score while you still can. That play ended the game. A FG keeps it going. He also went for it on 4th twice in that drive. The first time was equally idiotic.

Same thing in the Rams game. He should have taken the FG there at the end. Lions as well. You take the points to take the lead. That 4th and 1 was amateur hour.

Zorn is an idiot.

All those calls were good calls. You are aligned with the old, conservative coaching theories. I suggest you read up on the topic beginning with It's Fourth Down, What Does the Bellman Equation Say? by economist David Romer. I think it's still online. The author studied more than 20,000 NFL plays and pulled out about 1,100 fourth-down calls by coaches, 900 were the wrong calls based on probability. The study influenced Belichick to become the most aggressive NFL coach in going for it on fourth down.

There are also a couple of stat-oriented websites with recent artricles including one which studied the Zorn calls that you challenge.

[PorkSkins]

Maybe we should have hired an auctioneer from Barrett Jackson to call the plays. The plays would definitely come in a lot faster. I didn't see a whole lot of difference in the play calling. JC threw one pass over 30 yards. The last TD was given to us with less than two minutes to play.

[theTruthTeller]

All those WRs have one thing in common, not having Campbell as your QB who always looks for Cooley or Moss or the rb to dump it off too. Many times Thomas is running free downfield but JC won't look his way.

No doubt, but a lot of those receivers aren't working with the best of QBs. Two of them play for St. L - not an upgrade IMO.

[BornToHail]

Watching that game last night was painful - especially the debacle of Jason Campbell. While Sherm's playcalling seemed to be effective (certainly mixed it up more than Zorn), Campbell's done. He's too scared to lead. heck, didn't the Eagles rush four and get a sack despite a max protect formation?

It's all about what Fletcher said, if you play to not lose, you can't win.

[Henry]

It is not right to say that SW didnt have an impact tonite--as Zorn alluded to in his presser. Here are some of the points.

#1. Points. The Eagles arent the Rams, the Chiefs, the Lions. The Iggles, although I hate them are a 4-2 team. We scored 17 against them. We scored 13 points total against the Rams and the Chiefs. Yes 13 points in 2 games TOTAL. 17 points in 1 game against a far better opponent looks like a step up to me. Add in the Fact that we dont have Samuels on the OL, then it is even more impressive.

We scored 17 against the Giants in New York too. That doesn't mean our offense was any good then either. When you have 10 or fewer points and are down by three scores in the fourth quarter your offense stinks.

Sadly, the offense looked good enough in flashes that Snyder will probably feel justified in instigating this whole Sherm Lewis fiasco. But only losing to a division rival at home by 10 points on national television doesn't erase the fact that this team is a national embarrassment right now for publicly eviscerating his head coach.

#2. The Redshirts. I personally got sick of Zorn and the coaches blasting DT, MK, Rhinehart and Davis for being lazy, dumb...blah blah blah. Why dont you just kill our rookies? 3-2nd round picks and a third rounder and you expect me to believe theyre ALL busts- they all cant play? Isnt it amazing that once you get rid of Zorn's inability to develop young talent and his dumb playcalling, DT and Davis score 2 tds on 11 catches and 123 yds.

Well, once you get rid of Cooley with a broken foot, Davis is suddenly making plays. And that's great. I'm not sure how much of Davis' production was due to sudden utilization of 2 TE sets, though.

That said, it was nice to see the young guys get involved. We'll need to know who to keep once this team gets blown up in the offseason and Lewis using the young guys more might help us do that.

[BornToHail]

All those calls were good calls. You are aligned with the old, conservative coaching theories. I suggest you read up on the topic beginning with It's Fourth Down, What Does the Bellman Equation Say? by economist David Romer. I think it's still online. The author studied more than 20,000 NFL plays and pulled out about 1,100 fourth-down calls by coaches, 900 were the wrong calls based on probability. The study influenced Belichick to become the most aggressive NFL coach in going for it on fourth down.

There are also a couple of stat-oriented websites with recent artricles including one which studied the Zorn calls that you challenge.

Oldfan, I think going for it on 4th down in the first quarter is different than going for it in the 4th...and probabilities play out over the long run and can be quite dicey for that individual situation.

Old time conservative or not, I think you have to come away with points to give yourself a chance to extend the game and not end it, even though the offense was clicking at that point and might have converted. Especially given that our defense was holding them to 3 and outs.

[duenni]

Isnt it amazing that once you get rid of Zorn's inability to develop young talent and his dumb playcalling, DT and Davis score 2 tds on 11 catches and 123 yds.

Our picks arent busts, our coaching staff's inability to utilize and devlop these guys are.

we all knew davis can catch!! the problem is his blocking! That is what kept him off the field! The man looked ugly in PP!

As for Thomas yes you are correct, he should get more oppertunities!

[KDawg]

It is not a matter of philosophy. It was an idiotic risk. You need 3 scores. You take the score while you still can. That play ended the game. A FG keeps it going. He also went for it on 4th twice in that drive. The first time was equally idiotic.

Same thing in the Rams game. He should have taken the FG there at the end. Lions as well. You take the points to take the lead. That 4th and 1 was amateur hour.

Zorn is an idiot.

And when we have the ball with 30 seconds left on our own 20 with no timeouts, the defense knows we're throwing deep. The probability of us connecting is much less than the probability of us connecting on that fourth and goal play. Plus the fact that if you don't get it, you have the Eagles backed up.

Our inept offense being in that position is something you can't pass up on, and if we fail, our defense who was playing pretty well as a whole aside from a few big plays, has their backs up against the wall.

A field goal does very little for us there when our offense struggles to move the ball.

But that won't stop you from calling someone an idiot. So feel free to continue slamming people if it makes you feel better.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

One thing I think happened last night was that Williams had targeted plays.

I know that Andy Reid has a section on his play chart for "Westbrook" and a section for "Jackson" and I know he once had a section for Owens. So, when he realizes that a player is not being used, he can go to one of their plays and try to get them involved.

It felt like we were targeting Cooley early, and then just replaced Cooley with Davis and kept going to those same plays. It also seemed like there was a concerted effort to get Thomas involved.

I never felt like there was any plan tailored to individual players with Zorn, and that is how you end up getting no catches out of Cooley against the Chiefs.

So, that I liked.

On the other hand, we can't stretch the field with anyone calling the plays. And we can no longer run at all. So, it's all kind of pointless right now.

[duenni]

Davis could be a good blocker and a fair receiver - since he's been playing behind Cooley, its not fair to judge him yet. But he has a lot to show for the rest of the year.

Shouldn't that be the other way arround? He is a good receiver and a fair blocker:doh:

[KDawg]

Oldfan, I think going for it on 4th down in the first quarter is different than going for it in the 4th...and probabilities play out over the long run and can be quite dicey for that individual situation.

Old time conservative or not, I think you have to come away with points to give yourself a chance to extend the game and not end it, even though the offense was clicking at that point and might have converted. Especially given that our defense was holding them to 3 and outs.

And if we had gotten it everyone would have applauded Zorn for having "balls".

That's just the way fans think.

But the 3 and out thing is more of a reason TO go for it when the Eagles backed up against their own goal line.