TimmySmith Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 A look around the league casts some doubt. Before we all get hot and heavy about Holmgren or Chucky or their progeny let's take a look at who we are getting. Obviously not all offenses are the same, a quick look. Seattle has put up over 350 yards of total offense only twice in the last 20 games. Over 20 points in only 7 of those 20. Philadephia much better, but incredibly imbalanced, has rushed for over 100 yards as a team in only 10 of the last 24 games. St. Louis Rams not even worth the time. KC Chiefs, come on. And finally, the Skins. 30 years after the WCO was introduced it is my opinion that 30 years worth of defenses have been designed to stop it. I am wondering if it is even significant in the NFL anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSHRedskins3ATLBraves3 Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 I don't know, but I definitely don't want the a new coach that runs the WCO. That's not Redskins football. I like the smash-mouth, counter trey and then throw the deep ball game. That's Redskins football. None of this zone blocking crap. Hit them in the mouth. Redskins football is violent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichmondRedskin88 Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Well Eagles and Skins have tried forms of it. We just don't have the right people to make it work the way its suppose to. I'm sure it can work with the right people and coaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreamboater Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Minnesota & Green Bay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsCrushCowboys Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 West Coast Offense, Smash Mouth Football, Wildcat, whatever....we must be able to execute the scheme. I hate the West Coast Offense. Anyone remember when the manager of the "greatest show on turf" game to DC...5000 pages of God knows what.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam291 Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Might work for some teams, but I think the OP is right that it isn't relevant anymore. If you look at QBs drafted, the physical skills teams look at are big arms and mobility. Accuracy is kind of a second thought, as is throwing a lot of those 'timed' routes. JC is a good example of that, especially since he has a slow dropback and release which alone could mess up some of these plays. And now that there's all these damn spread offenses in college, it's hard to find QBs who even know how to play under center, which is crucial to the timing of a WCO. I think the WCO is moving out, while the wildcat and spread will start to replace it. Personally, I like a solid, tough run game before anything. Running with a few play action passes is what we need here; bringing in the WCO was a mistake to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laxpunk2006 Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Minnesota & Green Bay? Exactly. As far as I know KC is not running a WCO. Philly has been to 4 NFCC games and a SB with this offense. I'm personally not a huge fan of the offense but I don't think it's outdated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 i always hated the WCO. Sure it had its successes many moons ago, but to me it was always just behind the run and shoot as least desirable offenses. If only poor zorn would have kept the saunders playbook and not the gibbs playbook, he could have used Collins and made things happen. our WR's are perfect for the saunders O, HORRIBLE for the west coast. ARE and Moss are not prototypical WCO WR's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Minnesota & Green Bay? Denver last year (Shannahan). WCO is actually pretty misunderstood as to what it actually is. It doesn't mean just throw the ball short. It doesn't mean "don't run the ball" (even though Andy Reid sorta feels that way) and it doesn't mean finesse. What it means is the way a QB is supposed to drop back, read a defense, use his footwork, and get the ball to the receiver on the move as he is coming out of his break. It is a rhythm passing game that stretches the field both horizontally and vertically. Almost all offenses have variations of the WCO in them. And running the ball is a big part of a good WCO team. The 49ers of the 80's and 90's won SBs when they could compliment the pass with the run. The Broncos of the 90's won SBs being led by Terrell Davis. And the Vikings are using it now up in Minnisota pretty well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pocampo Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 All I can say is I'm watching Denver right now. There special teams have scored more then our offense in the first half!!! :doh: Zorns version of WCO is outdated in this league. And so is hip hip hurrah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsFTW Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Personally I think that it's inferior and always was but maybe I'm wrong and biased. What I saw with Green Bay with Favre in the 90's was a #1 defense and HOF QB that still required Bledsoe to throw 4 INTS and Howard to return 2 Kickoffs for them to win a SB against an average team and which other team has won recently with the WCO? The Broncos won because of Terrell Davis and a monster OL and HOF QB. The Bucs, defense, defense, defense. Pats, not WCO, Colts, Steelers, not WCO. Seattle almost but most good teams would have beaten them, Pittsburgh was a wildcard sneak in but still won. The Steve Young 49ers bought a ring and played an average Chargers team in the SB. The 49ers in the 80's? To me they were lucky and had some of the best players of the decade. They were guaranteed 7-8 wins a year and usually had home field but still lost more than their share of playoff games to inferior teams. The Giants owned them (one was 49-3), the Vikings smoked them once as a double digit road underdog, we beat them in our only meeting when both teams were elite. I don't know that the WCO was ever that great. If you need Montana, Rice, Craig, Lott, great TE's and above average overall defense to win (sometimes)with it or you need a #1 defense and Favre then I'm not so sure it's anything special. I think the scheme is a lot less important than team chemistry. Belichick, Gibbs, Lombardi, Allen, Landry, and many others prove that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimmySmith Posted October 20, 2009 Author Share Posted October 20, 2009 Minnesota & Green Bay?Minny is interesting, I think they could draw plays in the sand with Favre and Peterson.Childress admits he runs a modified WCO. McCarthy is a success story also blessed with an incredible QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldskool Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Anyone who says the WCO is outdated knows bupkis about the NFL. Most "modern" NFL offenses have a great deal of the WCO incorporated into them. http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&offensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STATS&conference=ALL&role=TM&season=2009&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=TOTAL_YARDS_GAME_AVG&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-n=1 Let look at points per game for the WCO teams: #2 Vikings #6 Eagles #8 Packers #29 Skins #32 Rams As you can see, when done correctly with the proper team built around them the offense is one of the best in the league. Still have doubts about the WCO, read this article: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_11_225/ai_72050120/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Text book WCO (not what the best teams now use) coupled with old school gibbs running game = fail. Different philosophies. Too predictable. Wrong personnel at WR and RB. We all know teams know when we are going to run or pass based on our long we take in the huddle. I bet Zorn still uses Joe's terminology. We have two completely different philosophies being foundation of THE offense. Joe Run First WCO Pass First. We have no identity. Zorn needed help long ago. He lived off Gibbs running plays and then we tanked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pocampo Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Anyone who says the WCO is outdated knows bupkis about the NFL. Most "modern" NFL offenses have a great deal of the WCO incorporated into them.http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&offensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STATS&conference=ALL&role=TM&season=2009&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=TOTAL_YARDS_GAME_AVG&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-n=1 Let look at points per game for the WCO teams: #2 Vikings #6 Eagles #8 Packers #29 Skins #32 Rams As you can see, when done correctly with the proper team built around them the offense is one of the best in the league. Still have doubts about the WCO, read this article: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_11_225/ai_72050120/ LOL dude. These guys use part of the WCO, But they also use the spread offense not pure WCO not pure spread its a Highbread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Re: Is the WCO still significant?A look around the league casts some doubt. Denver Broncos with Shanahan No.4 offense in the NFL Vikings Green Bay Packers Texans Bears Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halofan21 Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Anyone who says the WCO is outdated knows bupkis about the NFL. Most "modern" NFL offenses have a great deal of the WCO incorporated into them.http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&offensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STATS&conference=ALL&role=TM&season=2009&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=TOTAL_YARDS_GAME_AVG&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-n=1 Let look at points per game for the WCO teams: #2 Vikings #6 Eagles #8 Packers #29 Skins #32 Rams As you can see, when done correctly with the proper team built around them the offense is one of the best in the league. Still have doubts about the WCO, read this article: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_11_225/ai_72050120/ Looks good to me our problem isn't the scheme it is the players in it and the people who pick those players. You can be a success with the WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Anyone who says the WCO is outdated knows bupkis about the NFL. Most "modern" NFL offenses have a great deal of the WCO incorporated into them. Says the man on the West Coast I think though Washington Redskins football has always been built on smash mouth, dirty smack them around go deep football. From Lombardi to Gibbs I think you need to collect far too much talent at the skill spots to make the WCO work My biggest gripe though. The vocabulary and how hard it is to actually learn The WCO relies on rote memory, "concept" learning, where as most offenses, in particular the Coryell tree are numbered based Its much easier to learn "Strong right I 32 61" as opposed to "Strong right Zoom Alpha Arrow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laxpunk2006 Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 What I saw with Green Bay with Favre in the 90's was a #1 defense and HOF QB that still required Bledsoe to throw 4 INTS and Howard to return 2 Kickoffs for them to win a SB against an average team and which other team has won recently with the WCO? The Broncos won because of Terrell Davis and a monster OL and HOF QB. The Bucs, defense, defense, defense. Pats, not WCO, Colts, Steelers, not WCO. Seattle almost but most good teams would have beaten them, Pittsburgh was a wildcard sneak in but still won. The Steve Young 49ers bought a ring and played an average Chargers team in the SB. I don't know that the WCO was ever that great. If you need Montana, Rice, Craig, Lott, great TE's and above average overall defense to win (sometimes)with it or you need a #1 defense and Favre then I'm not so sure it's anything special. I think the scheme is a lot less important than team chemistry. Belichick, Gibbs, Lombardi, Allen, Landry, and many others prove that. How is it that these average teams that "most good teams could beat" keep making it to the Superbowl? I agree with your point that scheme is not the most important thing, I agree 100% there. Yes these teams had some AMAZING talent but they also had talent that fit the WCO. Not to say Jerry Rice wouldn't be great in any system but some of these guys were so good because they played in schemes that played to their strengths. That is nothing against the player, its just something that clearly isn't happening here. Campbell could have been a great Gibbs QB, not so much WCO. Same with Moss and ARE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldskool Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 LOL dude. These guys use part of the WCO, But they also use the spread offense not pure WCO not pure spread its a Highbread. The original WCO set of a 2 WR, RB and FB is dead and hasn't been used since Walsh left the NFL. The modern WCO uses many "spread" formations but the concept and the execution is still the same as it was in Walsh's day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InsaneBoost Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Have we ever really even done the WCO? I know this is a 2nd year for us compared to teams who have been running the WCO for quite some time. When watching teams who do run the WCO, it seems like we have no idea what we are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.C.O.L.B. Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 I don't know, but I definitely don't want the a new coach that runs the WCO.That's not Redskins football. I like the smash-mouth, counter trey and then throw the deep ball game. That's Redskins football. None of this zone blocking crap. Hit them in the mouth. Redskins football is violent. I think us Skins fans need to get over the 80's. If smash mouth football suits our personnel and will help us win? Yes. If the WCO suits our personnel and will help us win? Yes. If running he wildcat all game long helps us win? Yes. So basically, I don't give a **** what kind of offense we run. I just want to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldskool Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Says the man on the West Coast I think though Washington Redskins football has always been built on smash mouth, dirty smack them around go deep football. From Lombardi to Gibbs I think you need to collect far too much talent at the skill spots to make the WCO work Smashmouth football is as relevant today as a rotary telephone, black and white TV and leaded gasoline. 3 yards and a cloud of dust is ancient history. Gibbs greatest success as a coach came when he put the ball up in the air, not fed it to a RB 30+ times a game. This has been a passing league for 10+ years now, and the WCO is the most tried and true method of modern offense in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimmySmith Posted October 20, 2009 Author Share Posted October 20, 2009 Let look at points per game for the WCO teams: #2 Vikings #6 Eagles #8 Packers #29 Skins #32 Rams Eagles actually at #7. Seattle tied for #16. This shows me is that it works, provided you have a HOF caliber QB to run it. So obviously it's not for everyone. I agree that it has changed offenses forever and spawned new ideas, but Holmgren and Zorn still run the original version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldskool Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Have we ever really even done the WCO?I know this is a 2nd year for us compared to teams who have been running the WCO for quite some time. When watching teams who do run the WCO, it seems like we have no idea what we are doing. We have been running WCO formations and plays but this team still hasn't implemented the complete scheme. Skins rely too much on the run. Washington is 20th in pass attempts. Compared to 7th by the Saints, 10th by the Packers. 12th by Philly and 17th by the Vikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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