Annonymous Source Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Minnesota & Green Bay? New England, and Indianapolis also run versions of the WCO. The WCO is the most prevalent offense in the league, and it is also one of the most dominant when properly executed. The simple fact is that the skins do not have the personnel that they need to execute this scheme, just like most of the duds that the OP mentioned. there has been a WCO team in the last 4 superbowls. 09 was the Cardinals, 08 was the Patriots, 07 was the Seahawks, 06 was the Eggles. That is just off the top of my head. (and yes, all these teams ended up losing, but they have to be fairly successful to even get to that point.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldskool Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Maybe we should be asking a more basic question, though. Maybe the days of the play action pass, with the QB dropping back from under center, is done. Play action is effective for a team that can establish the run first. How many teams have O lines good enough to run block and pass protect consistently? And, if the deception of play action doesn't work, it only slows the QB down and makes him an easier target. The Patriots acheive ball control with the pass and YAC, just as Walsh did, but they do it out of the gun. Denver is now doing the same. They go under center about half the time and usually run from it Patriots and Broncos run the very.. same... offense.. so this isn't a valid comparison. Look at the teams with the top 10 scoring offenses in the league so far saintsvikings giants ravens patriots texans steelers colts eagles broncos Only 2 use the shotgun as a base formation instead of lining up under the center. Teams still line up under center for 3 and 5 step drops. Also 4 of those teams use a "WCO set" of one form or another as their base offense, so any claim that the WCO is dead and/or useless is completely false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boofMcboof Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Again Smashmouth football in the modern NFL is ineffective and therefore a dead practice as an offense in this league.Now, do you want to win or be nostalgic? As I've said before, sometimes I feel that fans would rather relive the glory days of the past than be successful in the present or the future. You realize that the 49ers under Singletary are running a smash mouth offense right? Doesn't matter really, most offensive schemes are effective as long as there's a enough hard working complementary talent and a coach that can draw from it's strengths and attack the other team's weakness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veretax Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 A look around the league casts some doubt. Before we all get hot and heavy about Holmgren or Chucky or their progeny let's take a look at who we are getting. Obviously not all offenses are the same, a quick look. Seattle has put up over 350 yards of total offense only twice in the last 20 games. Over 20 points in only 7 of those 20. Philadephia much better, but incredibly imbalanced, has rushed for over 100 yards as a team in only 10 of the last 24 games. St. Louis Rams not even worth the time. KC Chiefs, come on. And finally, the Skins. 30 years after the WCO was introduced it is my opinion that 30 years worth of defenses have been designed to stop it. I am wondering if it is even significant in the NFL anymore. no time to read all the pages so forgive me if I am repeating Rams are using the Coryell (Saunders) version now aren't they? CHiefs are also using that sort of Timing based system as I recall the same Zona uses. The teams I know that use the (Walsh) WCO are Seattle, Green Bay, Phily, Washington, I'm not sure who else :/ Jaguars maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warpath11 Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 no time to read all the pages so forgive me if I am repeatingRams are using the Coryell (Saunders) version now aren't they? CHiefs are also using that sort of Timing based system as I recall the same Zona uses. The teams I know that use the (Walsh) WCO are Seattle, Green Bay, Phily, Washington, I'm not sure who else :/ Jaguars maybe? Rams have Pat Shurmur as their OC now, and he came from Philadelphia so I think they have a type of WCO. Another WC team is Houston Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldskool Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 You realize that the 49ers under Singletary are running a smash mouth offense right?Doesn't matter really, most offensive schemes are effective as long as there's a enough hard working complementary talent and a coach that can draw from it's strengths and attack the other team's weakness. 49ers are 26th in rushing attempts this year at 25.2 attempts per game. The Skins are 24.5 attempts per game. There is no team in the NFL currently that is playing "smashmouth" AKA running the ball 40+ times a game. The Jets and the Wildcat crazy Dolphins are the closest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goflyhelo Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Give me smashmouth football. Run the ball down their throats. I'll take Gibbs style football anyday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 If you haven't figured it out in 74 years I'm not really sure why your still asking me. So, you used the term "chemistry" but you can't define it?:hysterical: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsenic Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 So basically, I don't give a **** what kind of offense we run. I just want to win. haha. Well said, sir! Its all about the Dubyas'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Patriots and Broncos run the very.. same... offense.. so this isn't a valid comparison. I'm not sure what McDaniels would call his "base offense." However, it's my understanding that the passing game from the shotgun is the same that he inherited from Belichick. However, when his QB goes under center, they are sticking close to what Denver's 2008 offense did, the zone blocking continues from the Shanahan era. Look at the teams with the top 10 scoring offenses in the league so far I'd rather look at the shotgun trend over a longer period. Tom Moore made a big investment in the shotgun with Peyton (2003 or 2004). Belichick followed and in 2007, the Perfect Patriots were the first team in NFL history to use the gun on more than 50% of its offensive plays (52%) The Steelers and Big Ben were third in usage behind The Patriots and the Colts. So, you have the top three winning teams of the decade also being the top three in shot gun usage. Green Bay was next in adopting much more gun. Favre's career, thought dead in the water, came alive with a vengeance. Sean Payton and Drew Brees make heavy use of the shotgun with the Saints. If we look at the trend. The Patriots exemplify the next likely step. They use the shotgun spread with WCO concepts -- the pass plus YAC is used for ball control. Once they get the lead, they generally go under center and run more in the fourh quarter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Minnesota & Green Bay? And the total number of superbowl victories because of it? Barely one. Desmond Howard argubly was the MVP of the one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 New England, and Indianapolis also run versions of the WCO. The WCO is the most prevalent offense in the league, and it is also one of the most dominant when properly executed. The simple fact is that the skins do not have the personnel that they need to execute this scheme, just like most of the duds that the OP mentioned. there has been a WCO team in the last 4 superbowls. 09 was the Cardinals, 08 was the Patriots, 07 was the Seahawks, 06 was the Eggles. That is just off the top of my head. (and yes, all these teams ended up losing, but they have to be fairly successful to even get to that point.) Hmm so all we are lacking is a Peyton Manning with a decade in the same system, a stellar RB (3 in a row in their case) probowl receivers, a solid o line and the no huddle running it the majority of the time. or Tom Brady, Wes Welker, Randy Moss, Joey Galloway (well he just been cut) etc and their version of the spread offense. A massive o line full of road graters can still be effective in todays league to play smash mouth and with WRs that can get separation and catch can produce a potent and successful offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldskool Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 A massive o line full of road graters can still be effective in todays league to play smash mouth and with WRs that can get separation and catch can produce a potent and successful offense. ND if it were this simple don't you think that one of the 32 teams in this league would be running such an offense? That type of offense is dead and extinct in the NFL for a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 New England, and Indianapolis also run versions of the WCO. The WCO is the most prevalent offense in the league, and it is also one of the most dominant when properly executed. The simple fact is that the skins do not have the personnel that they need to execute this scheme, just like most of the duds that the OP mentioned. there has been a WCO team in the last 4 superbowls. 09 was the Cardinals, 08 was the Patriots, 07 was the Seahawks, 06 was the Eggles. That is just off the top of my head. (and yes, all these teams ended up losing, but they have to be fairly successful to even get to that point.) The Patriots have been running the Erhardt Perkins offense for awhile now, it the basis of McDaniels system. I don't know what system Tom Moore runs but its not WCO. Its hard to define an NFL offense in the modern NFL. Essentially titling an offense comes down to a few things: terminology, philosophy and football coach tree determine the 'label' of the team. But most teams run a mix of different schemes i guess it comes down to terminology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 The Patriots have been running the Erhardt Perkins offense for awhile now, it the basis of McDaniels system. I don't know what system Tom Moore runs but its not WCO. Its hard to define an NFL offense in the modern NFL. Essentially titling an offense comes down to a few things: terminology, philosophy and football coach tree determine the 'label' of the team. But most teams run a mix of different schemes i guess it comes down to terminology. You are mostly correct, but I've read that McDaniels kept Shanahan's zone blocking in the run game. So, his scheme under center is not Fairbanks/Perkins -- and of course that's the under center half of the Belichick scheme. Chuck Fairbanks and Ray Perkins were not into the shotgun. However, Belichick's use of the shotgun is with the same fundamental purpose that Walsh had with his WCO -- ball control -- using the pass with YAC as the primary weapon. And Steve Young says that Brady throws on rhythm when he drops back under center. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 The WCO can be significant, with the right personnel. With a nice mix of size speed and power across the offense, any system will work. Its obvious we dont have a single prototypical WCO WR, nor QB. Only an idiot (Vinny) would allow, or greenhorn (Zorn) would try to install the WCO here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsFTW Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Only an idiot (Vinny) would allow, or greenhorn (Zorn) would try to install the WCO here. I thought they were looking for a WCO coach, it wasn't Zorn talking them into it. They wanted Mariuchi but he turned them down, so they hired Zorn as OC but nobody else wanted to work for Mini-Me, so they made him head coach. This was Spurrier 2.0 with Marty-like personnel from the beginning. The fools don't get it, never will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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