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Is the WCO still significant?

TimmySmith

By TimmySmith
in The Stadium

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Oldskool

Oldskool

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Eagles actually at #7. Seattle tied for #16. This shows me is that it works, provided you have a HOF caliber QB to run it. So obviously it's not for everyone. I agree that it has changed offenses forever and spawned new ideas, but Holmgren and Zorn still run the original version.

Actually this is wrong. Follow the link and you'll see i'm correct.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?offensiveStatisticCategory=TEAM_PASSING&archive=false&seasonType=REG&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&d-447263-s=TOTAL_POINTS_GAME_AVG&d-447263-n=1&season=2009&qualified=true&Submit=Go&tabSeq=2&role=TM&d-447263-p=1

And you don't need a HOF QB to run it (are you saying McNabb is HOF worthy?!). You need an accurate QB and a very solid O-line. WR's that can actually run routes helps as well.

Also forgot that NO Saints run a WCO attack as well. They seem to be doing well this year. :D

Here's an article about the Saints offense to chew on

http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2008/11/12/659511/a-quick-look-at-the-saints

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SkinsHokieFan

SkinsHokieFan

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Smashmouth football is as relevant today as a rotary telephone, black and white TV and leaded gasoline. 3 yards and a cloud of dust is ancient history.

Gibbs greatest success as a coach came when he put the ball up in the air, not fed it to a RB 30+ times a game.

This has been a passing league for 10+ years now, and the WCO is the most tried and true method of modern offense in the NFL.

Agree it is a passing leauge. You still gotta be able to run the ball though

Balance.

My big gripe though has always been the unbalance and the vocabulary and terminology. It takes a while to learn and get down (Zorn talked about 3 years with Hasselback)

The number based system is far superior in players learning plays

A "1" route is much easier to remember then an "arrow' route or "zoom" route

Again "Strong right I-41 fly on 3" is easier then "Strong right alpha zoom bravo on 3"

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TimmySmith

TimmySmith

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I will agree to a draw on this one.
And you don't need a HOF QB to run it (are you saying McNabb is HOF worthy?!). You need an accurate QB and a very solid O-line. WR's that can actually run routes helps as well.
Let's not debate about McNabb. But he certainly will receive serious HOF consideration.
Also forgot that NO Saints run a WCO attack as well. They seem to be doing well this year. :D

Here's an article about the Saints offense to chew on

http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2008/11/12/659511/a-quick-look-at-the-saints

West Coast "style". Payton runs a short pass offense. He is not a direct WCO guy.
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Oldskool

Oldskool

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Agree it is a passing leauge. You still gotta be able to run the ball though

Balance.

My big gripe though has always been the unbalance and the vocabulary and terminology. It takes a while to learn and get down (Zorn talked about 3 years with Hasselback)

The number based system is far superior in players learning plays

A "1" route is much easier to remember then an "arrow' route or "zoom" route

Again "Strong right I-41 fly on 3" is easier then "Strong right alpha zoom bravo on 3"

Any modern offenses verbage is going to be "extreme" and if you are going to argue about the nuances of play call signals, then you really aren't talking about the execution portion of the offense are you?

WCO has never had a "balance" between run and pass. What they have done is incorporate short passes that act like runs to the RB out of the backfield or to TE's and WR's 3 yards from the LOS.

The Patriots used this for each of their 3 championships to mask the fact that their WR's were less than average.

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Oldskool

Oldskool

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I will agree to a draw on this one.

Let's not debate about McNabb. But he certainly will receive serious HOF consideration.

Not really, but let's not squabble about that.

West Coast "style". Payton runs a short pass offense. He is not a direct WCO guy.

Payton's offense is based on the WCO's routes and short passes and does incorporate Coryell's deep passing attack, but at the heart it still is a rhythm, passing attack that incorporates short passes instead of runs out of the backfield, ala the WCO.

Read this article for more info.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/tim_layden/09/17/preview/index.html

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GoDeep81

GoDeep81

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30 years after the WCO was introduced it is my opinion that 30 years worth of defenses have been designed to stop it. I am wondering if it is even significant in the NFL anymore.

Maybe on the West Coast.. But were on the east coast! It gets cold in DC! We play Smash Mouth football!! (Well, we used to, when we were a winning team) Until we get back to that reality, I dont think we'll be anything to get excited about.. Unfortunately.. :eaglesuck

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pocampo

pocampo

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The original WCO set of a 2 WR, RB and FB is dead and hasn't been used since Walsh left the NFL.

The modern WCO uses many "spread" formations but the concept and the execution is still the same as it was in Walsh's day.

A Redskins fan in HB. Ever go to longboards On Main ? :cool2:

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Oldskool

Oldskool

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Maybe on the West Coast.. But were on the east coast! It gets cold in DC! We play Smash Mouth football!! (Well, we used to, when we were a winning team) Until we get back to that reality, I dont think we'll be anything to get excited about.. Unfortunately.. :eaglesuck

So Philly, who has repeatedly schooled the NFEC isn't on the East Coast? Their offense seems to work fine.

How about NE? Nah, their aerial attack sucks and gets sluggish in cold weather. Oh wait..

But im sure you watch a black and white TV and listen to AM radio cos it worked back in the day and dammit you're from DC and it gets cold in DC!

:hysterical:

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pocampo

pocampo

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So Philly, who has repeatedly schooled the NFEC isn't on the East Coast? Their offense seems to work fine.

How about NE? Nah, their aerial attack sucks and gets sluggish in cold weather. Oh wait..

But im sure you watch a black and white TV and listen to AM radio cos it worked back in the day and dammit you're from DC and it gets cold in DC!

:hysterical:

Is KROQ still around out there Oldskool ?

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21Knock_U_Out

21Knock_U_Out

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That is nothing against the player, its just something that clearly isn't happening here. Campbell could have been a great Gibbs QB, not so much WCO. Same with Moss and ARE.

I agree with this. Square peg round hole. I really think Gibbs had us moving in the right direction, but then Snyder brought in a whole different scheme with a QB coach to run it.

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GoDeep81

GoDeep81

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But im sure you watch a black and white TV and listen to AM radio cos it worked back in the day and dammit you're from DC and it gets cold in DC!

:hysterical:

I'd like to argue with you, but arent you the guy who said Gibbs won all his games in the air and not the run?? That alone tells me all I need to know about your knowledge of Redskins football.. :hysterical:

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Oldskool

Oldskool

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I'd like to argue with you, but arent you the guy who said Gibbs won all his games in the air and not the run?? That alone tells me all I need to know about your knowledge of Redskins football.. :hysterical:

If you're going to misquote me, at least be extravagant about it.

I said Gibbs had his greatest success when he aired it out, not pounded the rock.

Sometimes I wonder if people are fans of the game or get fixated on the past...

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CM916

CM916

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It's the only thing that works for me in Madden with crappy teams like this one, though I use the basic "west coast" book rather than the Zorn version. It helps that I can make Campbell throw immediately after the snap by pressing a button though. Zorn doesn't have that luxury.

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Tydee

Tydee

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Exactly. As far as I know KC is not running a WCO. Philly has been to 4 NFCC games and a SB with this offense. I'm personally not a huge fan of the offense but I don't think it's outdated.

I agree, but the personnel have to fit into the system....having an OL too.

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Hubbs

Hubbs

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I'm not saying this just because of Josh McDaniels - I firmly believed it before, and his success just reinforces my belief.

I think the "standard" WCO is virtually dead. There's a kind of "deep throwing" WCO that Green Bay, and, to be more relevant to our coaching search, Mike Shanahan likes to run, which I think is still very effective. Then there's the New England offense, which is relatively unique in today's game, yet actually seems to be truer to the actual, original WCO than offenses labeled as such. It spreads the field horizontally better than anything else I see today. Uses short passes to every receiving option as an extension of the run game, and uses much more effective routes than what's billed as today's WCO passing game. I absolutely love it scheme-wise (and I also absolutely love the Shanahan WCO, for what it's worth).

The offenses that get the typical WCO label nowadays are dilapidated hybrids that have tried to mesh too many principles. They represent nothing. And defenses have adjusted as a result.

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Vooskin

Vooskin

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Traditional westcoast offense is great at beating the blitz and in general a great passing offense. It is typically weak in the run game. I will say our powerrun game + westcoast is fail. You want to be able to incorporate as many plays in a formation as possible to keep teams guessing. Power run formations are intended to be run first with a mix up of the occasional play action or quick slant. Going from a passing formation to a heavy run is an easy indicator of a run. It's also less of a threat in the passing game. The offensive philosophy becomes extra worse when you have a terrible oline and a RB who cant break tackles behind it. I still think with the right personnel we would be successful but across the board the offense isn't talented enough, old, or just bad.

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maskedsuperstar

maskedsuperstar

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I don't know, but I definitely don't want the a new coach that runs the WCO.

That's not Redskins football. I like the smash-mouth, counter trey and then throw the deep ball game. That's Redskins football. None of this zone blocking crap.

Hit them in the mouth. Redskins football is violent.

That style is done.

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Oldfan

Oldfan

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The Holmgren/Zorn WCO is true to the ball control scheme Walsh created.

Shanahan and Reid have WCO roots, but they adapted to the big play abilities of Elway, Cutler and McNabb who had far more athletic talent than Joe Montana. Their offenses should not be considered WCOs. Their schemes are too heavily dependent on the talent of the QB.

I think the OP is on the right track. Football schemes have a shelf life. The Walsh brand of WCO might very well not be worth the time it takes to teach and learn the scheme.

Maybe we should be asking a more basic question, though. Maybe the days of the play action pass, with the QB dropping back from under center, is done.

Play action is effective for a team that can establish the run first. How many teams have O lines good enough to run block and pass protect consistently? And, if the deception of play action doesn't work, it only slows the QB down and makes him an easier target.

The Patriots acheive ball control with the pass and YAC, just as Walsh did, but they do it out of the gun. Denver is now doing the same. They go under center about half the time and usually run from it

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