The Inner Game of Football - How Jim Zorn is Ruining the Redskins

[Reaganaut]

Woah. Profound stuff right here. And I'm being completely serious.

Thanks man.

[Reaganaut]

As I recall, much of the Inner Game was about how to avoid dwelling on one's mechanics during the game --and instead to free your body's natural rhythms away from the 'restrictive oversight' by your conscious mind. But even in going 'natural' -- your body still relies on muscle-memory of the streamlined techniques that you honed in practice.

Exactly.

[CRobi21]

I guess that good threads come in bunches around here!!

Good stuff Reag..

[Reaganaut]

This thread makes me happy. EXTREMELY well done, Reganaut.

Wow. Thank you Apotheosis.

[Zguy28]

Pretty slick hatchet job, Reaganut. Your timing was good too. Zorn just lost a game to the Detroit Lions.

You've taken Zorn's greatest strength, his attention to detail, and portrayed it as a weakness. Vince Lombardi, Paul Brown and Tom Landry -- those guys were maniacs with their attention to detail. Paul Brown wanted the ball to make six rotations on his pitchout play. Bill Walsh? I have some material he prepared for a seminar on his offense while he was at Stanford. The man was an insane perfectionist.

Can we agree that Jim Zorn has spent more time and effort remodeling Jason Campbell's mechanics than he has on any other player? If so, then let me ask - what you see? Did he ruin Jason? Joe Gibbs spent three high draft choices on an Auburn QB with lousy mechanics. When Al Saunders got here, he saw the problem and did some offseason work with Campbell. Then Dan and Vinny brought in Jim Zorn to work with him.

I watched last year and saw a better QB fundamentally, but I thought he looked too mechanical. Then, by chance, I heard Jason in an interview say that Jim Zorn keeps telling him he looks too mechanical. This year, he has pushed past the mechanical stage and looks more natural. That's the part that you and Gallwey missed. You begin by practicing sound mechanics, then with enough repetition, the subconscious mind takes over and the movements become habit.

Jason Campbell is an improved QB this season. It shows in his play. So, if Jim Zorn hasn't ruined Jason, how do you figure he's ruined his team? Oh and by the way, Troy Aikman and Philip Rivers would disagree with you about Norv ruining their careers too.

I tend to agree with this. Instinct only goes so far. Sound fundamentals and mechanics are important. Rep it until it becomes muscle memory. Your body can be retrained. On the other side of that though is you can go too far and end up playing to a players weakness instead of using their strengths.

[TheLongshot]

Exactly.

You agree, but Zorn said basically the same thing in training camp in reference to Colt, that the techniques taught have to come second nature without him thinking about it, and that takes time.

[Brotherz]

Its a very interesting take. The one thing I will definately agree with is alot of us around here got pretty spoiled with Gibbs in his second stint here.I too occassionally said "he has lost it". Now, I look at the years after he left the first time with Pettibone, spurrier, robiskie, (I leave schottenheimer out because he was probably on hsi way to making us a contender when danny fired him) and now I look at the "precipitous" drop off after the 6-2 carry over (which is a point I completely agree with the OP) and I really understand how amazing Joe was/is. Remember those 5 game runs to playoffs. The year we beat Dallas and the giants badly in back to back weeks? He didn't make us a dynasty which alot of us wanted from him to term him a success but you can't say he didn't make us a contender during those years. I would have loved to see this team under him last year. NO way he goes 2-6 the last 8 weeks. No way.

[zCommander]

Funny I noticed how Zorn likes to "tinker" with players natural abilities while I was at camp and noticed it with Colt. Said here afterwards and people thought I had no clue what I was talking about. Maybe I couldn't explain what I saw properly.

I guess I should have used some analogy from tennis to prove my point.

[Dead Money]

Our defense looks like a bunch of tennis players.

[WhoRUSupposed2Be]

Very interesting thread.

I remember seeing how Zorn would watch each player (especially the QBs) during Training Camp and then walk up to them and tutor them...

Thanks for the pics.

[MattFancy]

Can't agrue much there. Good post. I hope Zorn gets things figured out quick. A few more bad losses and he's gone.

[PlayAction]

It is clear that the Redskins players were well coached under Joe Gibbs and that carry over effect enabled them to get six wins in the first half of last season. Then Zorn's coaching (meddling) started to have an effect and they were literally stopped dead in their tracks..

Last I checked Gibbs II had the same record for the first 19 games as Zorn and over his entire tenure a losing record. I don't see that anything has changed.

[Oldfan]

Originally Posted by Wyvern

As I recall, much of the Inner Game was about how to avoid dwelling on one's mechanics during the game --and instead to free your body's natural rhythms away from the 'restrictive oversight' by your conscious mind. But even in going 'natural' -- your body still relies on muscle-memory of the streamlined techniques that you honed in practice.

Reaganut -- Exactly.

What do you mean "exactly?"

Are you implying you said this in the OP? Wyvern's post, including the remark you quoted, disagrees with your theory as expressed in the OP.

[Oldfan]

You {Reaganaut] agree, but Zorn said basically the same thing in training camp in reference to Colt, that the techniques taught have to come second nature without him thinking about it, and that takes time.

Zorn said the same thing about the receivers learning to run their routes precisely.

In Walsh's WCO , precision is the key word.

[Reaganaut]

What do you mean "exactly?"

Are you implying you said this in the OP? Wyvern's post, including the remark you quoted, disagrees with your theory as expressed in the OP.

Easy Tiger,... breathe. Mantra "I will not be cranky, I will not be cranky, I will not be cranky."

I am just agreeing with Wyvern's point on "restrictive oversight" of the conscious mind being a detrimental thing. This isn't the debate club and you don't have to always have "the floor" in the conversation.

You're gonna have a heart attack OldFan at this pace. :doh:

[PorkSkins]

There's an old saying that you can't polish a turd. Maybe he was trying to fix something that WAS already broken. I didn't see any glaring promise to the way any of the QB's played prior to his arrival. Where's the criticism of Collins? I didn't see any change in him during preseason. As for the defense, I think there is a definite attitude problem going on. We hired the 100M Dollar Man on the line to turn our defense around. Maybe some of the vets that have been around for a while don't like working next to a guy that makes 10 times their salary. They probably figure if he is that good then I don't need to work as hard. Let him save the day. That's why he makes the big bucks.

[Oldfan]

Easy Tiger,... breathe. Mantra "I will not be cranky, I will not be cranky, I will not be cranky."

I am just agreeing with Wyvern's point on "restrictive oversight" of the conscious mind being a detrimental thing. This isn't the debate club and you don't have to always have "the floor" in the conversation.

You're gonna have a heart attack OldFan at this pace. :doh:

I'm perfectly fine, Amigo. But, thanks for your concern.

Now, how about addressing the points Wyvern made?

[Reaganaut]

Last I checked Gibbs II had the same record for the first 19 games as Zorn and over his entire tenure a losing record. I don't see that anything has changed.

What you're saying is true, but Gibbs' teams never looked lost on the field.

[Reaganaut]

I'm perfectly fine, Amigo. But, thanks for your concern.

Now, how about addressing the points Wyvern made?

I'm not your monkey... :laythehur

[PeterMP]

I tend to agree with this. Instinct only goes so far. Sound fundamentals and mechanics are important. Rep it until it becomes muscle memory. Your body can be retrained. On the other side of that though is you can go too far and end up playing to a players weakness instead of using their strengths.

I'm actually not sure that EVERYBODY can be retrained.

However, in this case, I don't see any evidence that the retraining that Zorn has done has been a negative. Campbell is faster in his drop back. His release is faster. Where are the negatives? As somebody else pointed out, we don't seem to have an over abundance of fumbled snaps. His accuracy doesn't seem to be any worse (his completion percentage has gone up).

If the arguement is that Zorn is a bad coach because he's taught Colt new mechanics and as a function of that "ruined" him, then I'm going to laugh considering he was a 6th round pick and essentially with the mechanics he had was considered at best to be a long shot at being in the NFL by every NFL franchise.

[Oldfan]

I'm not your monkey... :laythehur

What does that mean?

Are you saying you'd rather not address Wyvern's counterpoints?

[Zguy28]

I'm actually not sure that EVERYBODY can be retrained.

There are always exceptions to the rule.

However, in this case, I don't see any evidence that the retraining that Zorn has done has been a negative. Campbell is faster in his drop back. His release is faster. Where are the negatives? As somebody else pointed out, we don't seem to have an over abundance of fumbled snaps. His accuracy doesn't seem to be any worse (his completion percentage has gone up).

I tend to agree. Campbell always had issues with Gibbs' offense since he had to be under Center and he had to squat down to do it. I remember Jason complaining how it hurt his knees all the time.

If the arguement is that Zorn is a bad coach because he's taught Colt new mechanics and as a function of that "ruined" him, then I'm going to laugh considering he was a 6th round pick and essentially with the mechanics he had was considered at best to be a long shot at being in the NFL by every NFL franchise.

I know. :hysterical:

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I'll give another good example where this is evident

Virginia Tech football

You have a defense, where Bud Foster has a clear understanding of the "inner game" His defenses rely on instincts, attacking, making plays and running hard to the ball

You hear his interviews, he is on the point and direct. He breaks things down but quickly builds it back up to a cohesive machine

You then have an offense led by Bryan Stinespring, who out smarts himself on game day, and clearly has his offense "over coached"

There is no identity. There is always the "we were one block away, one pass away etc from breaking a big play"

His interviews sound like a rambling idiot. Sure once in a while his offense has a great game, but most of the time he is leading an inept incompetent unit that can't get out of its own way. When the offense of Virginia Tech plays with instincts and just goes out there and balls, it makes big plays

Or else its just a mess

I see it with this entire Redskins team. Great thread

I know that VT killed them, but watch what Mark Whipple is doing in Miami. He's an offensive guru, but you can tell that his game is based on same very basic principles - get open, get set and get rid of the ball. There is a reason that he gets results every place he goes - he doesn't try to rebuild his players. He just tries to maximize their abilities, whatever they are.

[PeterMP]

I know that VT killed them' date=' but watch what Mark Whipple is doing in Miami. He's an offensive guru, but you can tell that his game is based on same very basic principles - get open, get set and get rid of the ball. There is a reason that he gets results every place he goes - he doesn't try to rebuild his players. He just tries to maximize their abilities, whatever they are.[/quote']

But some players NEED to be rebuilt to maximize their abilities. SOMEBODY should have changed Leftwich's mechanics. If it had been done and worked, he'd be a MUCH better QB.

(**EDIT** I will point out, that it is possible with Leftwich it would have failed, and he'd have gone backwards and completely tanked and been out of the NFL in a few years. However, with respect to the teams he's been with what would have REALLY been the lost. It isn't like any of them went to the SB (and even more to the point won it) because of him (w/ him as a real contributor). His mechanics are a REAL limitation that than REALLY limits the team that has him as a real contributor.).

[Oldfan]

...However, in this case, I don't see any evidence that the retraining that Zorn has done has been a negative. Campbell is faster in his drop back. His release is faster. Where are the negatives? As somebody else pointed out, we don't seem to have an over abundance of fumbled snaps. His accuracy doesn't seem to be any worse (his completion percentage has gone up)...

I think there are advantages and disadvantages to be weighed. Even a sidearm motion has advantages that the other approaches don't. In other words, the perfect throwing motion doesn't exist.

Jason threw a nice fade as a rookie, but the last couple looked a little flat to me. I think it would be fair to speculate that the fade might be a casualty of the change of mechanics. But, the gains elsewhere are hard to deny as I see it.