The Inner Game of Football - How Jim Zorn is Ruining the Redskins

[Reaganaut]

Zorn may not be a great HC but he is a hell of a QB coach. You're going to accuse him of causing Campbell and Brennan to regress? Brennan needed so much work because he operated out of the shotgun so much in college and was not comfortable dropping back in a traditional offense. ANY coach would have changed this.

Things aren't great in Redskins land right now but some of these ideas are just ridiculous.

How do you know he is a great QB coach? It is equally likely that Mike Holmgren is the QB genius with the results being Favre and Hasselbeck. I stand by my assessment on Zorn.

[Chiefinonhaze]

Thats an interesting theory. But didn't Walsh do the same thing? Wasn't he big on mechanics? I agree with your post though

[SkinsFTW]

When the offense of Virginia Tech plays with instincts and just goes out there and balls, it makes big plays

Same with our 2 minute offense. As soon as Zorn starts calling his plays at the wrong time the team sucks.

I'm still not sure if thats just because it's the last few minutes of the game or not, but it's obviously more effective.

Expecting perfection on multiple 10-15 play drives in order to even stay in a ball game is ridiculous IMO. And then when they successfully drive down to the redzone multiple times, without making mistakes, they are rewarded with JZ calling run left run left garbage pass play. Score points, faster, and more often. The defense isn't going to care if there are 1-2 more turnovers a game if you are scoring 24-30 points.

[clarence3]

Very interesting thread.

I remember seeing how Zorn would watch each player (especially the QBs) during Training Camp and then walk up to them and tutor them...

Jason Campbell first had to have his "mechanics" adjusted to stand lower in the pocket. Now the offensive lineman (Zorn says) have to "stand taller" on play action plays to fool the defensive lineman.

All the quarterbacks had to change their footwork in the off season. The player who had to make the biggest changes of all was Colt Brennan. It is clear that his level of play has declined precipitiously since Zorn got ahold of him.

Every single player on the offense has gotten worse under Jim Zorn.

Just give him more time with Zorn the coach "breaking him down" mechanically and you will witness the same drop off in performance.

[Reaganaut]

Thats an interesting theory. But didn't Walsh do the same thing? Wasn't he big on mechanics? I agree with your post though

Walsh was a great coach who was a great leader. He was a perfectionist as well which is true. Let me give you an example: The movie Patton featured a bogged down column getting strafed by airplanes. Patton pulls up in a jeep and asks the leader why it's stopped. He drives down to a bridge where the leader is trying to coax a man with a donkey to get it moved off the bridge. Patton pulls out his revolver and shoots the donkey and has the men throw it in the river. He screams "You let my column get strafed on account of a GD donkey?" Bang bang.

Bill Walsh is Patton. Zorn is the guy on the bridge trying to convince the guy to move the donkey.

[Reaganaut]

Very interesting thread.

I remember seeing how Zorn would watch each player (especially the QBs) during Training Camp and then walk up to them and tutor them...

WOW dude! These photos tell a very interesting story don't they? Any wonder the defense is struggling now too? He's breaking everyone down and leaving them high and dry. :laugh:

[sgf21]

I understand and agree with some of the points. But the majority of the players were selected for Gibbs system which differs dramatically from Zorn's WCO. Those same players also had a few years of tutelage in Gibbs system. Gibbs did get off to the same start in his second go with the Skins as Zorn has. You have to give the players time to adjust to the new scheme Zorn is trying to install.

[Oldfan]

Pretty slick hatchet job, Reaganut. Your timing was good too. Zorn just lost a game to the Detroit Lions.

You've taken Zorn's greatest strength, his attention to detail, and portrayed it as a weakness. Vince Lombardi, Paul Brown and Tom Landry -- those guys were maniacs with their attention to detail. Paul Brown wanted the ball to make six rotations on his pitchout play. Bill Walsh? I have some material he prepared for a seminar on his offense while he was at Stanford. The man was an insane perfectionist.

Can we agree that Jim Zorn has spent more time and effort remodeling Jason Campbell's mechanics than he has on any other player? If so, then let me ask - what you see? Did he ruin Jason? Joe Gibbs spent three high draft choices on an Auburn QB with lousy mechanics. When Al Saunders got here, he saw the problem and did some offseason work with Campbell. Then Dan and Vinny brought in Jim Zorn to work with him.

I watched last year and saw a better QB fundamentally, but I thought he looked too mechanical. Then, by chance, I heard Jason in an interview say that Jim Zorn keeps telling him he looks too mechanical. This year, he has pushed past the mechanical stage and looks more natural. That's the part that you and Gallwey missed. You begin by practicing sound mechanics, then with enough repetition, the subconscious mind takes over and the movements become habit.

Jason Campbell is an improved QB this season. It shows in his play. So, if Jim Zorn hasn't ruined Jason, how do you figure he's ruined his team? Oh and by the way, Troy Aikman and Philip Rivers would disagree with you about Norv ruining their careers too.

[SkinsManNJ]

I came in here expecting something completely different. Thank you very much for this thread. Excellent read.

Zorns fix should be a sit down with some HOF coaches constantly telling him; you instruct the players and give them objectives and just let them play. They will get it right.

If he would only change his ways it could work. But he won't to stubborn. I'm rooting for ya Jim. Good luck fella.

[McD5]

Pretty slick hatchet job, Reaganut. Your timing was good too. Zorn just lost a game to the Detroit Lions.

I was waiting for your response Oldfan. As expected, you didn't disappoint.

JC was the first thing that came to my mind. He does look a little better.

Now, that being said, I do believe the OP's premise has some truths to it.

I saw someone else mention Mark Sanchez, and how great of a start he has enjoyed this season. Would Zorn have even played Sanchez right off the bat in Washington? Or would he be criticizing his game, and trying to correct "flaws" that might make Sanchez hesitant, instead of playing naturally? My gut tells me that Sanchez would be on the bench right now. But, I could be wrong.

I can understand that he is a perfectionist, and this huge job opportunity probably really brings that out in him even more than usual. He doesn't want to make a mistake. But maybe he is being a little too anal.

It is just my own personal opinion, but I honestly don't want Zorn anywhere near Colt Brennan.

I don't believe he has the resume for it. I don't believe he has the track record, or the past accomplishments to justify it.

But I do like your response.

[Oldfan]

It is just my own personal opinion, but I honestly don't want Zorn anywhere near Colt Brennan.

IMO, Campbell had no chance to make it in the NFL before Z came to town.

Colt looks like a good college QB to me.

[McD5]

IMO, Campbell had no chance to make it in the NFL before Z came to town.

Colt looks like a good college QB to me.

I agree with you 100% on Campbell. I am not sure he was ever "a natural." He needed coaching badly. And the results are evident.

Colt and Sanchez? Especially after so little collegiate experience for Sanchez?

Those two seem to have much more raw talent, and natural ability. I would be concerned about Zorn stifling that.

In the case of a Sanchez....I wouldn't want Zorn making that kid second guess himself.

[Charlied72]

Very good read. Great post

[Reaganaut]

Pretty slick hatchet job, Reaganut.

(Sound effect: lame comedian drum roll + crickets) That's a three and out with a twenty yard punt Oldfan. No high road for you these days?

You've taken Zorn's greatest strength, his attention to detail, and portrayed it as a weakness.

And as Charles Darwin pointed out, overspecialization leads to extinction. Zorn overspecializes in detail.

Vince Lombardi, Paul Brown and Tom Landry -- those guys were maniacs with their attention to detail. Paul Brown wanted the ball to make six rotations on his pitchout play. Bill Walsh? I have some material he prepared for a seminar on his offense while he was at Stanford. The man was an insane perfectionist.

Bill Belichick is an insane perfectionist. He has built a TEAM though with a strong identity like the United States Marines. Jim Zorn is Spock. Bill Walsh was Jim Kirk. Jim balances out Spock and McCoy and makes the perfect leader. Spock would have gotten the universe destroyed.

I watched last year and saw a better QB fundamentally, but I thought he looked too mechanical. Then, by chance, I heard Jason in an interview say that Jim Zorn keeps telling him he looks too mechanical. This year, he has pushed past the mechanical stage and looks more natural. That's the part that you and Gallwey missed. You begin by practicing sound mechanics, then with enough repetition, the subconscious mind takes over and the movements become habit.

Well, Zorn only has 52 other players to go now... That ought to take 100 years at this pace. I think that Campbell may have gotten over the total shock faster since Zorn went at him first and is the first person to move toward recovery having "found himself" in the middle of the morass.

[illone]

Part of me believes that Zorn is suffering from paralysis by analysis.

Rather than just let these guys go out and play and have fun, he is in their ear every second about every little detail.

If my boss was in my ear all day I couldn't get any work done.

Now, obviously that isn't a fair comparison, but watching Zorn on the NFL network giving Jason all that instruction last week before the St Louis game I thought to myself I wonder if other coaches do the same thing. That would annoy the hell out of me, especially if I was in Jason's shoes having done the job for a few years now.

That is what practice is for, but on gameday let me go out and do my thing. At halftime you can coach me up, or while the defense is on the field we can look at the pictures, but get your voice out of my ear while I am trying to concentrate.

[Oldfan]

I agree with you 100% on Campbell. I am not sure he was ever "a natural." He needed coaching badly. And the results are evident.

Colt and Sanchez? Especially after so little collegiate experience for Sanchez?

Those two seem to have much more raw talent, and natural ability. I would be concerned about Zorn stifling that.

In the case of a Sanchez....I wouldn't want Zorn making that kid second guess himself.

Sanchez has had some excellent coaching. He doesn't need help. Simms saw that. I'm sure Zorn did too.

[Reaganaut]

I came in here expecting something completely different. Thank you very much for this thread. Excellent read.

Zorns fix should be a sit down with some HOF coaches constantly telling him; you instruct the players and give them objectives and just let them play. They will get it right.

If he would only change his ways it could work. But he won't to stubborn. I'm rooting for ya Jim. Good luck fella.

Zorn could learn on the job. It's always possible I guess. I'd rather bring in Holmgren and (drumroll) how about Ron Wolf as GM? He lives in Annapolis I heard. Lord Farquaad talked to Bobby Bethard seriously, why not Wolf.

[Jeff in D.C.]

IMO, Campbell had no chance to make it in the NFL before Z came to town.

Colt looks like a good college QB to me.

I couldn't disagree more. Jason looked pretty good to me (albeit a bit raw) before Zorn got hold of him.

Something you have to keep in mind oldfan is that Zorn hasn't necessarily been helping Campbell to get better as a QB, but rather he's been coaching Campbell in a way that tries to fit the system that he's implementing. Well maybe Jason just isn't a good fit for Zorn's offense, yet Zorn has been trying to turn him into a WCO QB. It's like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

[McD5]

Part of me believes that Zorn is suffering from paralysis by analysis.

Rather than just let these guys go out and play and have fun, he is in their ear every second about every little detail.

Now, obviously that isn't a fair comparison, but watching Zorn on the NFL network giving Jason all that instruction last week before the St Louis game I thought to myself I wonder if other coaches do the same thing. That would annoy the hell out of me, especially if I was in Jason's shoes having done the job for a few years now.

That is what practice is for, but on gameday let me go out and do my thing. At halftime you can coach me up, or while the defense is on the field we can look at the pictures, but get your voice out of my ear while I am trying to concentrate.

I was just going to post the exact same thing.

That was the first thing that stood out to me in that video--Zorn in JC's helmet during pregame, going over stuff that he should have gone over earlier in the week.

That wasn't the time for it.

It was too much. That kind of thing can make someone nervous and hesitant.

It was bordering on neurotic. Or OCD.

[Jethrodsp]

The concept the started all sports-psychology:

Psycho-Cybernetics-

the concept that the brain naturally compensates for any deficiencies when trying to accomplish a clearly defined goal (such as completing a pass or hitting a straight drive in golf) when you relax and allow your natural instinct to take over.

A basic example. A baby does not know how to pick up a pencil. Nor does it have the ability to analyze how it should be done and yet through its natural computing and problem solving power, its brain constructs an effective way to accomplish the task.

I have read the book, just never thought to apply it to the Redskins current situation.

Well done.

[Reaganaut]

The concept the started all sports-psychology:

Psycho-Cybernetics-

the concept that the brain naturally compensates for any deficiencies when trying to accomplish a clearly defined goal (such as completing a pass or hitting a straight drive in golf) when you relax and allow your natural instinct to take over.

A basic example. A baby does not know how to pick up a pencil. Nor does it have the ability to analyze how it should be done and yet through its natural computing and problem solving power, its brain constructs an effective way to accomplish the task.

I have read the book, just never thought to apply it to the Redskins current situation.

Well done.

Sniff sniff... I feel like Sally Fields.

If Jim Zorn's grandson picked up a pencil, he'd get it on film and break it down. He'd work with the kid until the kid got it just right... "Ok, little guy... a little more to the left... OOOOOHHH... watch out for your eye!"

I actually go for the whole right / left brain thing where a great player uses the "appropriate" hemisphere to achieve a task. They did a study in the 80's where they filmed students who were given 250 questions which alternated between verbal and visual problems. They watched the film and when they put up a verbal question the very high IQ students' eyes would react and shift in one direction and the opposite on a visual question. The average students would tend to react with their eyes favoring one side or the other "overusing" one hemisphere to solve the problem.

They found if they trained the average students to use the appropriate hemisphere to solve the appropriate problem their IQ scores rose significantly. This is why the "trick" in the Inner Game of Tennis works so well. You are getting your opponent to use the wrong hemisphere to deal with the problem. Enter Jim Zorn... well you know the rest of the story.

[Oldfan]

(Sound effect: lame comedian drum roll + crickets) That's a three and out with a twenty yard punt Oldfan. No high road for you these days?

Just striving for accuracy.

And as Charles Darwin pointed out, overspecialization leads to extinction. Zorn overspecializes in detail.

There's no sign that he's done that with his prize pupil, Campbell. Hasselbeck sings his praises. But, you know the man better?

Bill Belichick is an insane perfectionist. He has built a TEAM though with a strong identity like the United States Marines. Jim Zorn is Spock. Bill Walsh was Jim Kirk. Jim balances out Spock and McCoy and makes the perfect leader. Spock would have gotten the universe destroyed.

There was a five minute NFL video clip of Zorn and Campbell miked up on the sideline posted the other day. Several posters said the clip had given them a much more favorable impression of the man. Five minutes was all it took to change people minds. Now, imagine what might happen if we actually got to know the man. My point is that you are making this comparison to Spock and you've never met Jim Zorn.

[illone]

I was just going to post the exact same thing.

That was the first thing that stood out to me in that video--Zorn in JC's helmet during pregame, going over stuff that he should have gone over earlier in the week.

That wasn't the time for it.

It was too much. That kind of thing can make someone nervous and hesitant.

It was bordering on neurotic. Or OCD.

It sounded like Zorn was talking to him like a 2 year old.

"Ok buddy, take the binky out and crawl over to me, you can do it"

I laughed pretty hard when I watched that and I said to myself no wonder campbell stinks he has that annoying voice in his helmet all game long.

Can you imagine your boss doing that to you while at your job? :hysterical:

I'd quit in a heartbeat if my boss did that.

[Jeff in D.C.]

Best thread I've seen on ES, well done Reaganaut.

And for those of you who are defending Zorn here, let me make a few points.

First, for those of you who are younger you may not know/remember that Joe Gibbs started 0-5 in his first season. He admitted that he didn't really know what he was doing, and didn't really have a grasp of how to best make use of his offensive personnel. Joe Theisman went to his house and had a talk with him about changing things to better suit the players and their abilities, and what followed was a 36-7 record in their next 43 games, a Super Bowl title, another NFC title, Joe Thiesman winning an MVP award and Riggo setting a bunch of rushing records. What Joe Gibbs knew how to do was put his players in a position to succeed by maximizing their strengths. What Zorn has done is attempt to put a system into place and call plays that don't fit the personnel and don't maximize their strengths.

Secondly, you might remember Ken Beatrice from WMAL and later sportstalk 570/980. Extremely intelligent guy. I remember Ken saying on a number of occasions that teams wouldn't be picky in teaching fundamentals to great players because those teams wouldn't want to "mess them up."

If you know how to do something and you're great at it, the last thing you need is someone micro-managing your every move to fit what that person wants.

Think of it this way - it's in your boss' best interest to leave you alone if you're doing a great job and only add to and expand your knowledge, not break down every little damn thing you're doing. You won't get the most out of people if you're doing that, and if the boss is trying too hard to do that, he/she is only hurting themselves. Any whole is the sum of its individual parts, so the parts had better each be the best they can be.

What Zorn needed to do was to come in here and build on what Jason does well and work with him on things that were preventing him from being a good QB. Instead, Zorn has decided to teach Jason how to conform to Zorn's scheme, which Jason may just not be good at. Let Jason be himself. The Jason I saw in 2007 and the first part of last season was a PRO BOWL caliber QB.

What's different now? Zorn's micro-managing of Jason's mechanics has sunk in and ruined him, that's what.

[Oldfan]

The concept the started all sports-psychology:

Psycho-Cybernetics-

the concept that the brain naturally compensates for any deficiencies when trying to accomplish a clearly defined goal (such as completing a pass or hitting a straight drive in golf) when you relax and allow your natural instinct to take over.

I have read the book, just never thought to apply it to the Redskins current situation.

Psycho-cybernetics was published as a self-help book. As far as I know, the theory has never been taken seriously.