The Inner Game of Football - How Jim Zorn is Ruining the Redskins

[Reaganaut]

Just striving for accuracy.

(Jackie Gleeson Voice: "Just staatin right in with the insults Alice, no warmin up in the bullpen or nothin...")

There's no sign that he's done that with his prize pupil, Campbell. Hasselbeck sings his praises. But, you know the man better?

If you actually read my OP, you will see that I offer examples from people that actually know him like Clinton Portis. So you know him better than Portis?

There was a five minute NFL video clip of Zorn and Campbell miked up on the sideline posted the other day. Several posters said the clip had given them a much more favorable impression of the man. Five minutes was all it took to change people minds. Now, imagine what might happen if we actually got to know the man. My point is that you are making this comparison to Spock and you've never met Jim Zorn.

I listen to every Zorn press conference... so what if he is good during the game. The damage is being done in the offseason and practice, not on the live communications WHICH by the way he KNOWS is being miked up so he puts on a smiley face...

Hey... my 4000th post... cool. I really don't post much I guess... that's 4000 since before 911...

[tr1]

Best thread I've seen on ES, well done Reaganaut.

And for those of you who are defending Zorn here, let me make a few points.

First, for those of you who are younger you may not know/remember that Joe Gibbs started 0-5 in his first season. He admitted that he didn't really know what he was doing, and didn't really have a grasp of how to best make use of his offensive personnel. Joe Theisman went to his house and had a talk with him about changing things to better suit the players and their abilities, and what followed was a 36-7 record in their next 43 games, a Super Bowl title, another NFC title, Joe Thiesman winning an MVP award and Riggo setting a bunch of rushing records. What Joe Gibbs knew how to do was put his players in a position to succeed by maximizing their strengths. What Zorn has done is attempt to put a system into place and call plays that don't fit the personnel and don't maximize their strengths.

Secondly, you might remember Ken Beatrice from WMAL and later sportstalk 570/980. Extremely intelligent guy. I remember Ken saying on a number of occasions that teams wouldn't be picky in teaching fundamentals to great players because those teams wouldn't want to "mess them up."

If you know how to do something and you're great at it, the last thing you need is someone micro-managing your every move to fit what that person wants.

Think of it this way - it's in your boss' best interest to leave you alone if you're doing a great job and only add to and expand your knowledge, not break down every little damn thing you're doing. You won't get the most out of people if you're doing that, and if the boss is trying too hard to do that, he/she is only hurting themselves. Any whole is the sum of its individual parts, so the parts had better each be the best they can be.

What Zorn needed to do was to come in here and build on what Jason does well and work with him on things that were preventing him from being a good QB. Instead, Zorn has decided to teach Jason how to conform to Zorn's scheme, which Jason may just not be good at. Let Jason be himself. The Jason I saw in 2007 and the first part of last season was a PRO BOWL caliber QB.

What's different now? Zorn's micro-managing of Jason's mechanics has sunk in and ruined him, that's what.

Very nice post.

I'd add that by not changing the play calling at the goal line, Zorn is saying that he isn't willing to change what he KNOWS is right.

Good coaches adapt to the personnel...not vice versa.

[Reaganaut]

Best thread I've seen on ES, well done Reaganaut.

Thanks man. I thought about it for a long time before posting it.

[McD5]

Both sides have good points.

I am willing to see the merits in each.

From watching that video, I do believe that Zorn may be going a little overboard, and may be doing it at the wrong time.

His intentions are good, but micromanaging, if done in gross excess, can bring production to a halt in almost any business. He isn't running an engineering firm.

That doesn't mean this is all Zorn's fault. The guy has a lot on his plate. QB coaching, calling the plays, and coaching the entire team.

He was set up for failure. Dan gets the credit for most of that.

[Oldfan]

What Joe Gibbs knew how to do was put his players in a position to succeed by maximizing their strengths. What Zorn has done is attempt to put a system into place and call plays that don't fit the personnel and don't maximize their strengths.

You are making a false analogy. In 1981, the Coryell passing game was state of the art. All Joe had to do to make the offense work was to add another Coryell concept, the H-back, which created the one back offense.

When Jim Zorn arrived, our Coryell was obsolete. Joe had tried for four years to get a consistent passing game together without success. Dan and Vinny wanted the WCO which meant that Jason Campbell, who had been selected for the Gibbs's Coryell offense, would not fit the new offense without major remodeling. He was too slow in every way.

Secondly, you might remember Ken Beatrice from WMAL and later sportstalk 570/980. Extremely intelligent guy. I remember Ken saying on a number of occasions that teams wouldn't be picky in teaching fundamentals to great players because those teams wouldn't want to "mess them up."

Ken's theory, which was once conventional, is being abandoned largely due to the success of Jim Zorn with Hasslebeck.

In Campbell's case, he wasn't going to make it in today's NFL if left alone, so the team had nothing to lose by the attempt.

[tr1]

You are making a false analogy. In 1981, the Coryell passing game was state of the art. All Joe had to do to make the offense work was to add another Coryell concept, the H-back, which created the one back offense.

Um, I believe the counter-trey and huge (at the time) lineman were the difference. The Coryell concept was what he did during the 0-5 stint...and it didn't work...like it did in SD.

I know you don't care for Gibbs, but get the facts right.

[Reaganaut]

Ken's theory, which was once conventional, is being abandoned largely due to the success of Jim Zorn with Hasslebeck.

Oldfan, is there alcohol involved here this evening? You're saying Jim Zorn and Hasslebeck were responsible for breaking down conventional theories on coaching? Seriously? :doh:

[Oldfan]

(If you actually read my OP, you will see that I offer examples from people that actually know him like Clinton Portis. So you know him better than Portis?

You cherry-picked one old comment by one player to support your biased piece. Do we ignore Clinton's most recent comments? Clinton said he's a good coach. Do we ignore the comments of the other players, like Chris Cooley's favorable comments in his blog? Chris said he enjoys playing for him.

[Enter Apotheosis]

This thread makes me happy. EXTREMELY well done, Reganaut.

[Jethrodsp]

Specifically in regards to Campbell and QBs:

You can look around the league and see there is no mechanical blueprint among great quarterbacks.

Rivers, Manning, Brady, Cutler, Favre, each succeeds in his own way. While at some point it is true that they were coached on "take this many steps in your drop for this play" or "get the ball out this much quicker in your release" they're natural tendencies were allowed to take them to those goals.

While Brady is calm with his feet in the pocket, Manning is choppy. Rivers has a side release while Brady and Manning clearly come over the top. Cutler and Favre both have many release points that the three previously mentioned dont. Jason Campbell has not been allowed to develop his own style mechanically. He is constantly having to work on something that will better fit what Jim Zorn's vision of the perfect mechanical QB is and I believe that, while he has the natural ability to fight through it for the most part, it is not allowing him to reach his peak. Hes not being allowed to just "go out there and ball."

Remember Spurrier? He had the same kind of convoluted ideas about mechanics.

[Mercuryrising]

It is a good writeup, but I do not think it is accurate at all. The team looks and plays just like it did under Gibbs 2.0, and lo and behold it is because the core of the team is the same. I am sorry but this is left over from Gibbs, and until Portis, Moss, Campbell, Daniels, Rabach, Thomas, Samuals, Dockery, Los, and probably even Blache are gone it will look the same.

[Oldfan]

Oldfan, is there alcohol involved here this evening? You're saying Jim Zorn and Hasslebeck were responsible for breaking down conventional theories on coaching? Seriously? :doh:

Theories on QB mechanics have always been in two camps. One theory, which Joe Gibbs subscribed to obviously, is that QB mechanics don't matter that much. All that counts is results. This group tends to believe that if you mess with the man's natural mechanics, you risk fouling him up.

The other group, mainly represented by ex-QBs like Aikman, Jaws and Simms think that mechanics determine results and that QBs can be re-trained. For this group, Zorn's work with Hasselbeck stands as the best evidence.

I haven't heard anyone knowledgeable say lately that QB mechanics don't matter. Have you?

[Jeff in D.C.]

You are making a false analogy. In 1981, the Coryell passing game was state of the art. All Joe had to do to make the offense work was to add another Coryell concept, the H-back, which created the one back offense.

Joe had to do some major tweaking to get the offense to work the way he wanted, and as I said the major part was the advice from Joe Theisman. Joe knew that Joey T. was not Dan Fouts, and that he had a great RB in Riggo. He figured it out by designing an offense around their abilities.

When Jim Zorn arrived, our Coryell was obsolete. Joe had tried for four years to get a consistent passing game together without success. Dan and Vinny wanted the WCO which meant that Jason Campbell, who had been selected for the Gibbs's Coryell offense, would not fit the new offense without major remodeling. He was too slow in every way.

Jason was not selected for the Air Coryell offense. Joe really liked what he could do. Remember that Gibbs won Super Bowls with 3 different QB's. He adapted to those QB's strengths instead of trying to stuff a system down their throats. I'm not sure what you're talking about here.

Ken's theory, which was once conventional, is being abandoned largely due to the success of Jim Zorn with Hasslebeck.

In Campbell's case, he wasn't going to make it in today's NFL if left alone, so the team had nothing to lose by the attempt.

Campbell & Hasselbeck are two completely different QB's. And the thing you have to remember is that Hasselbeck came up in the WCO with the Packers, so it was a smooth transition for him in Seattle with Holmgren. Campbell & Hasselbeck have different skill sets. Hasselbeck's skills fit the WCO perfectly, and Jason's skills don't. Zorn came in and changed everything that Jason had been doing under Gibbs, and it's messed him up.

[Jeff in D.C.]

Specifically in regards to Campbell and QBs:

You can look around the league and see there is no mechanical blueprint among great quarterbacks.

Rivers, Manning, Brady, Cutler, Favre, each succeeds in his own way. While at some point it is true that they were coached on "take this many steps in your drop for this play" or "get the ball out this much quicker in your release" they're natural tendencies were allowed to take them to those goals.

While Brady is calm with his feet in the pocket, Manning is choppy. Rivers has a side release while Brady and Manning clearly come over the top. Cutler and Favre both have many release points that the three previously mentioned dont. Jason Campbell has not been allowed to develop his own style mechanically. He is constantly having to work on something that will better fit what Jim Zorn's vision of the perfect mechanical QB is and I believe that, while he has the natural ability to fight through it for the most part, it is not allowing him to reach his peak. Hes not being allowed to just "go out there and ball."

Remember Spurrier? He had the same kind of convoluted ideas about mechanics.

Yup, and Patrick Ramsey was ruined because of it.

[Mercuryrising]

I hear every losing coach saying the same stuff: "We have got to fix some things!" "We made mistakes." I heard Tomlin say it after the Bengals beat the Steelers: "We made mistakes and we are going to work on fixing those so they do not happen again.

Somehow though Zorn doing what every other coach does means he is a poor coach? I think this thread is stretching the boundaries of reality and sanity a little and a lot.

So the book basically boiled down to just relax and do what you are trained to do, and try to get your opponent to not relax and to over-think everything? Ok, I hope it was not more than a dozen pages long unless the anecdotes were extremely entertaining... Parcells breaks everything and everyone down, and his player never relax, but hey; he is probably a loser too right?

[TheLongshot]

What Zorn has done is attempt to put a system into place and call plays that don't fit the personnel and don't maximize their strengths.

You mean I haven't been seeing more of Campbell in shotgun and seeing him regularly taking deeper drops, which seem to be what he's comfortable with?

Secondly, you might remember Ken Beatrice from WMAL and later sportstalk 570/980. Extremely intelligent guy. I remember Ken saying on a number of occasions that teams wouldn't be picky in teaching fundamentals to great players because those teams wouldn't want to "mess them up."

Is Campbell considered a "great" player? At no point have I considered him such.

What Zorn needed to do was to come in here and build on what Jason does well and work with him on things that were preventing him from being a good QB. Instead, Zorn has decided to teach Jason how to conform to Zorn's scheme, which Jason may just not be good at. Let Jason be himself. The Jason I saw in 2007 and the first part of last season was a PRO BOWL caliber QB.

He had moments of greatness which would be ruined by a critical mistake at a critical time in 2007. I think Campbell benefited greatly from Portis running the ball early in the season. When that started going away, it exposed the weaknesses we had in the passing game. Things are actually better now, since we are able to move the ball despite the fact that the running game has yet to get on track. Campbell also seems to have much better command of the offense than he did previously. Other than the lack of scoring, he's probably putting up the best numbers of his career.

[Jeff in D.C.]

Theories on QB mechanics have always been in two camps. One theory, which Joe Gibbs subscribed to obviously, is that QB mechanics don't matter that much. All that counts is results. This group tends to believe that if you mess with the man's natural mechanics, you risk fouling him up.

The other group, mainly represented by ex-QBs like Aikman, Jaws and Simms think that mechanics determine results and that QBs can be re-trained. For this group, Zorn's work with Hasselbeck stands as the best evidence.

I haven't heard anyone knowledgeable say lately that QB mechanics don't matter. Have you?

Mechanics do matter, but you work with players on mechanics to help them get better and maximize their potential, not to fit what you want that player to be and the offense you want him to run.

[TheLongshot]

Mechanics do matter, but you work with players on mechanics to help them get better and maximize their potential, not to fit what you want that player to be and the offense you want him to run.

Those things aren't mutually exclusive. Just as a note, Saunders wanted Campbell to speed up his delivery as well, Zorn was mostly continuing what Saunders started.

[Dark Acre]

I can actually relate to this. I had taken marksmanship at Camp Minnehaha (I name drop for you locals) and done fairly well. They did a little teaching there, mostly safety and how to aim. We were on our own to improve. I shot fairly well; not great. Years later I was in Basic at Fort Lostinthewoods. We did initial zeroing to get a feel for how the M-16 fired. The entire company was shooting. I got all 3 shots inside the inner circle of the target from 50 meters, maybe farther - I don't remember. I do remember the company 1st Sergeant walking down the line after we had cleared our rifles, stopping at my target and doing a double-take. He gave me a thumbs up and yelled out, "that's what we're talking about". I had some "big man on campus" for the day. A few days later we're doing some practice firing on the range ahead of quals. I'm shooting sharpshooter (mid-level) and missing my farther targets. I just needed to relax. Instead, everyone from the West Point cadidiot training with us to nearly every freaking sergeant in my company started F'ing with my sights, how I held the rifle, when I pulled the trigger, to the point where I couldn't qualify. My senior sergeant knew I was a pretty intelligent and capable soldier so he wasn't insulted when I basically told him that everyone trying to fix my shooting had F'd everything up. I wanted my rifle re-zeroed from scratch, which takes awhile, but he knew I was serious and knew what I was talking about. I had go back for a "bolo" session to get everything done, and didn't bother with the two 300 meter targets; I was just happy to get sharpshooter and move on. In ROTC camp and later as an officer I shot expert. Hail.

[Jeff in D.C.]

Longshot - I never said Campbell was a "great" QB, I was simply making a general comment about how if a player does something great, the coaches shouldn't mess him up by micro-managing his every move.

Yeah, Zorn has had him drop back in the shotgun, but as a whole the offense still doesn't fit him. Most QB's are more comfortable in the shotgun because it gives them more time to throw.

[Jeff in D.C.]

I hear every losing coach saying the same stuff: "We have got to fix some things!" "We made mistakes." I heard Tomlin say it after the Bengals beat the Steelers: "We made mistakes and we are going to work on fixing those so they do not happen again.

Somehow though Zorn doing what every other coach does means he is a poor coach? I think this thread is stretching the boundaries of reality and sanity a little and a lot.

Mercury you're splitting hairs here. Zorn is 3-8 in his last 11 games, while oh by the way Tomlin won the freakin Super Bowl last year.

Tomlin's teams have made adjustments and constantly play with fire and passion, whereas the Skins have been lifeless dating back to last year and are making the same stupid mistakes they've been making in the previous 11 games under Zorn. It's not entirely his fault, and the players need to accept some responsibility, but either way a coaching change needs to be made if a team with this group of talent can't make the playoffs or have a winning record in back-to-back seasons.

[akorn22]

Good post. (not that there has been any posts out ther lately to compete with this one haha). But seriously good analysis. However I don;t think that harping on mechanics is all that bad. They only problem is that good mechanics come natural to most qb's which is why they can go by instinct and perform well. campbell is doing bad because ever though he's been in the league 5 years, he still needs to concentrate and think about mechanics. Any good qb would have had these down pat already enough to be able to make good reads, play by instinct, and perform well

[Jeff in D.C.]

Those things aren't mutually exclusive. Just as a note, Saunders wanted Campbell to speed up his delivery as well, Zorn was mostly continuing what Saunders started.

Well Saunders style didn't help Jason either. I knew at the time that Joe shouldn't have brought Saunders in here with his 700 page playbook because it was going to set this offense back about 30 years. And no way Saunders should have been jamming things down Jason's throat.

[Oldfan]

Jason Campbell has not been allowed to develop his own style mechanically. He is constantly having to work on something that will better fit what Jim Zorn's vision of the perfect mechanical QB is and I believe that, while he has the natural ability to fight through it for the most part, it is not allowing him to reach his peak. Hes not being allowed to just "go out there and ball."

High pressure defenses require QBs to get rid of the ball quickly. Before Al Saunders, Jason had a very long windup. Before Zorn, he had slow footwork.

Before Zorn, Jason often didn't move his feet to dump the ball off in the flat. Instead he relied on his athletic ability to throw the pass with his arm only resulting in a ball that spiraled with the tail down (tough to catch and not very accurate).

[Oldfan]

Mechanics do matter, but you work with players on mechanics to help them get better and maximize their potential, not to fit what you want that player to be and the offense you want him to run.

What Campbell is learning from Jim Zorn, to be quicker and more accurate, will make Jason a better QB in any scheme in today's game.