The Inner Game of Football - How Jim Zorn is Ruining the Redskins

[Oldfan]

I know that VT killed them' date=' but watch what Mark Whipple is doing in Miami. He's an offensive guru, but you can tell that his game is based on same very basic principles - get open, get set and get rid of the ball. There is a reason that he gets results every place he goes - he doesn't try to rebuild his players. He just tries to maximize their abilities, whatever they are.[/quote']

There's not much time to rebuild players at the college level. They are not full-time football players.

Al Saunders pointed out that Campbell's athleticism could cover his mechanical flaws at the college level because the margin for error is much wider.

[TheLongshot]

I think there are advantages and disadvantages to be weighed. Even a sidearm motion has advantages that the other approaches don't. In other words, the perfect throwing motion doesn't exist.

Jason threw a nice fade as a rookie, but the last couple looked a little flat to me. I think it would be fair to speculate that the fade might be a casualty of the change of mechanics. But, the gains elsewhere are hard to deny as I see it.

It could also be that he's just out of practice, since the fade really hasn't been a part of the Redskins offense in years.

[PeterMP]

I think there are advantages and disadvantages to be weighed. Even a sidearm motion has advantages that the other approaches don't. In other words, the perfect throwing motion doesn't exist.

Jason threw a nice fade as a rookie, but the last couple looked a little flat to me. I think it would be fair to speculate that the fade might be a casualty of the change of mechanics. But, the gains elsewhere are hard to deny as I see it.

It is possible. I honestly don't remember him throwing more fades. It also could be that Zorn doesn't feel they have the players to execute the fade so they don't do it much so Campbell isn't very good at it (especially in the context of the changes in the mechanics), but that doesn't mean it is really a "casualty" vs. something that if they are going to use it, they need to practice it more.

[SkinsFTW]

Al Saunders pointed out that Campbell's athleticism could cover his mechanical flaws at the college level because the margin for error is much wider.

Al Saunders is right. Gibbs may have 1 more ring if he'd listened. Jim Zorn now knows it as well. How many red zone touchdown passes have we seen this year?

JC has 3 TD passes, but how many weren't against the prevent in the late 4th quarter?

Al Saunders was right about JC. Who didn't see the career backup come in after JC got injured and win 4 straight games by margins that Campbell has achieved 1 time in almost 40 starts?

Was that just random? I don't think so. Gibbs didn't either even though it was in his best interest to say otherwise at the time. JC was healthy but we continued to start Collins. Why?

[Oldfan]

It could also be that he just out of practice, since the fade really hasn't been a part of the Redskins offense in years.

Sure, that's possible.

But, my thought arises from my personal experience. I like the over the top style (Dan Marino), but it isn't the best for the throws requiring touch. Some QBs are gifted enough to change arm angles just slightly to get it done (Brees), but it's not something that comes naturally as an advantage.

[nonniey]

Er, who hired Zorn after a complete abortion of a Coach hiring process? Who is really ruining he Redskins?

[bikie]

good points on both sides... to me, the difference in mechanics and the potential harm in being too detailed is when mechanics goes from improving how a player will play versus how a player is supposed to look...

there's a big difference between a delivery that is slow and lacks ball security, to one that is fundamentally efficienty, yet, aesthetically looks wrong...

you look at phillip rivers and his delivery looks horrendous... I think the most accurate description of it was that it looks like he is throwing a shotput.... but he has a quick delivery, can vary his angles and normally protects the ball... to adjust his delivery would be a huge error and there are some coaches that would, just because it does not look like it would work...

to know if zorn is one of those coaches is just speculative... I think campbell's mechanics have improved drastically since he entered the league and I thought colt's did too... my issue with zorn is not with how he is coaching our QBs, it's with is ability to scheme against defenses and effectively lead a group of men...

some examples posters are using of players saying they "enjoy" playing for zorn are ridiculous... I knew players personally that "enjoyed" playing for norv and that was because it was a veritable vacation with him compared to how other coaches ran teams... don't take for granted all players want to win as badly as you would hope they would... lots of guys are fine with an 8-8 record, cushy practices, a soft coach, and fat checks in the bank...

[Mark The Homer]

I'm actually not sure that EVERYBODY can be retrained.

However, in this case, I don't see any evidence that the retraining that Zorn has done has been a negative. Campbell is faster in his drop back. His release is faster. Where are the negatives? ...

I think what the OP is saying is, Campbell and others are thinking too much about they're mechanics. That is the negative.

[PeterMP]

I think what the OP is saying is, Campbell and others are thinking too much about they're mechanics. That is the negative.

But that has to show up somewhere physically in the game. The idea is that you spend to much time thinking about it than you won't physically execute it properly.

Where is the decrease in Campbell's physical execution post-Gibbs?

[Oldfan]

Where is the decrease in Campbell's physical execution post-Gibbs?

Right -- and if Zorn hasn't ruined Campbell, his pet project, the OP's premise that Zorn has ruined the team with excessive attention to detail falls like a house of cards.

[Smurf3]

The bottom line is, if you are thinking too much you can't perform. The classic example is golf. If you are thinking about your back swing during a round, you are toast. A golf head game similar to the tennis example of the poster is to ask a golfer whether he/she inhales or exhales on their back swing. Also I can't believe that Bugle and the other assistants don't have some input on this.

[Dark Acre]

I agree ultimately Norv sucks as a coach - but Jesus at least he could call a good game from time to time. Even though his teams had lots of turnovers and blown leads, the Redskins scored those weird things called touchdowns during his tenure with regularity. They'd have lots of boneheaded plays in between, but you knew that Norv would establish the run and work off of playaction, that was his gameplan every time.

Norv Turner was the exact opposite of Gibbs. He couldn't make a necessary adjustment to save his life, and at the same time, he'd adjust out of something that was working.

[Reaganaut]

Right -- and if Zorn hasn't ruined Campbell, his pet project, the OP's premise that Zorn has ruined the team with excessive attention to detail falls like a house of cards.

Even the experienced Jedi are so sure of themselves... so sure they are... :saber:

Oldfan, you aren't interested in anyone else's points just your own rice bowl. The frame in the OP for JC success is him throwing off the shackles of the coach and thinking for himself which he seems to be doing. His success is therefore IN SPITE of the coach. He has to look inside... this is a contract year for him.

Falling like a house of cards. You wish.

[Reaganaut]

The bottom line is, if you are thinking too much you can't perform. The classic example is golf. If you are thinking about your back swing during a round, you are toast. A golf head game similar to the tennis example of the poster is to ask a golfer whether he/she inhales or exhales on their back swing. Also I can't believe that Bugle and the other assistants don't have some input on this.

Oldfan... are you listening? Open your mind

[PeterMP]

Even the experienced Jedi are so sure of themselves... so sure they are... :saber:

Oldfan, you aren't interested in anyone else's points just your own rice bowl. The frame in the OP for JC success is him throwing off the shackles of the coach and thinking for himself which he seems to be doing. His success is therefore IN SPITE of the coach. He has to look inside... this is a contract year for him.

Falling like a house of cards. You wish.

But he hasn't thrown off any shackles (that we know of). He certainly hasn't reverted back to his pre-Zorn snap posture and release.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

awesome post/idea. probably some truth to that, although its hard to really say that zorn messing with campbells mechanics is why hes struggling. he struggled long before that.

i do agree with your premise about the defense though. its gotta be so tough knowing that no matter how much you bust your ass your offense is just gonna sputter around the field and give you no help. thats gotta wear pretty thin on our guys.

[Oldfan]

But he hasn't thrown off any shackles (that we know of). He certainly hasn't reverted back to his pre-Zorn snap posture and release.

And the sly Reaganaut didn't CLAIM that Jason had thrown off the shackles in his OP or in any subsequent post -- until he realized that his main premise needed to be rescued.

[Reaganaut]

And the sly Reaganaut didn't CLAIM that Jason had thrown off the shackles in his OP or in any subsequent post -- until he realized that his main premise needed to be rescued.

God, so sly I am... I have an answer for everything don't I? What I don't have is time to stuff you back in your little box. Nobody cares anyway. Many people thought it was a good post Oldfan. You must have some sort of jealousy thing going on where you are getting personal. Why don't you spend some time and write up your thoughts instead of just attacking.

[Oldfan]

God, so sly I am... I have an answer for everything don't I? What I don't have is time to stuff you back in your little box. Nobody cares anyway. Many people thought it was a good post Oldfan. You must have some sort of jealousy thing going on where you are getting personal. Why don't you spend some time and write up your thoughts instead of just attacking.

I called your OP a slick hatchet job. That's my opinion of it. If you take that personally, that's not my problem.

I, along with others, have "attacked" your argument with logical counter-arguments. If that troubles you, that's not my problem either.

[TSO]

I understand where both Reaganaut and Oldfan are coming from, and I think you guys both may be missing just how easily reconciled both of your opinions are.

Oldfan, you are absolutely right in your counter-argument of Jason Campbell's play/style of play, and it does cause Reaganaut's original premises to fall; that being that "Zorn is ruining the Skins", but I think you've failed to acknowledge what is actually factual about Reaganuat's idea and that which Zorn himself understands and has made a point to mention more than a few times.

Reaganaut, your original premise that "Zorn is ruining the Skins" by over teaching is simply false due to the fact that Zorn himself has acknowledged what you consider to be his destruction of the "inner game" as growing pains.

Both positions are easily reconciled once we acknowledge that yes, players are thinking too much but it's not because of "over teaching" and a lack of understanding on Zorn's part of the "inner game", but they are simply thinking too much because it's still a fairly new system.

Yes, they are thinking too much and it's a cause for a lot of the problems, especially the younger WRs this year along with the Campbell last year, but as they get more and more comfortable within the system, you can see the "thinking" decreasing and the "playing" increasing.

Reaganaut, the biggest logical error you fell into when writing this thread is you failed to acknowledge this most important fact, and that both players and coaches have said as much so many times this offseason. We can pull so many quotes from so many different interviews this offseason from both Zorn and players like Campbell stating how much easier things are because they can "just go out and play" and not have to "think as much". Zorn said on numerous occasions how little "coaching of the coaches and players" he has to do now, and how they can just focus more on installing the plays as we go along.

Keeping this in mind, we can only assume that the team will improve as the year goes by if they simply practice what they know, mastering it, as opposed to thinking about it and learning it. We also have to understand that there are younger players still going through that stage on this team.

So, to summarize my position, Reaganuat is right about the "inner game" but fails to understand that Zorn himself actually acknowledges this (per his "eventually it'll just be a reflex for them and not something there thinking about" quotes you can find all over the place), and thus, his original premises that "Zorn is ruining the Skins" ends up as false.

Now let's all kiss and make up. :smooch:

:puke:

[Enter Apotheosis]

Our defense looks like a bunch of tennis players.

Tennis players swarm to the ball more quickly.

[Oldfan]

thesubmittedone -- Oldfan, you are absolutely right in your counter-argument of Jason Campbell's play/style of play, and it does cause Reaganaut's original premises to fall; that being that "Zorn is ruining the Skins", but I think you've failed to acknowledge what is actually factual about Reaganuat's idea and that which Zorn himself understands and has made a point to mention more than a few times.

This is what I said in Post #33 on the point you raise.

I watched last year and saw a better QB fundamentally, but I thought he looked too mechanical. Then, by chance, I heard Jason in an interview say that Jim Zorn keeps telling him he looks too mechanical. This year, he has pushed past the mechanical stage and looks more natural. That's the part that you and Gallwey missed. You begin by practicing sound mechanics, then with enough repetition, the subconscious mind takes over and the movements become habit.

Then, when Wyvern raised the same issue, Reaganaut appeared to agree with him. That's when TheLongshot said:

You {Reaganaut] agree, but Zorn said basically the same thing in training camp in reference to Colt, that the techniques taught have to come second nature without him thinking about it, and that takes time.

And I added:

Zorn said the same thing about the receivers learning to run their routes precisely.

[TSO]

This is what I said in Post #33 on the point you raise.

I watched last year and saw a better QB fundamentally, but I thought he looked too mechanical. Then, by chance, I heard Jason in an interview say that Jim Zorn keeps telling him he looks too mechanical. This year, he has pushed past the mechanical stage and looks more natural. That's the part that you and Gallwey missed. You begin by practicing sound mechanics, then with enough repetition, the subconscious mind takes over and the movements become habit.

Then, when Wyvern raised the same issue, Reaganaut appeared to agree with him. That's when TheLongshot said:

You {Reaganaut] agree, but Zorn said basically the same thing in training camp in reference to Colt, that the techniques taught have to come second nature without him thinking about it, and that takes time.

And I added:

Zorn said the same thing about the receivers learning to run their routes precisely.

I missed that, thanks... sounds like we are in total agreement then.

[ttr77]

Well, whether you agree or disagree...great post. It's good to see one between all the 'FIRE ZORN' threads that sparks some real debate.

For the record, I believe there is some merit to it. For all of Zorn's 20+ months on the job, all we can point to as evidence of improvement is slightly better mechanics on the QB's part. Either JC's mechanics were absolutely abysmal (which is hard to believe after 2 years under Saunders) or Zorn is trying to reinvent the wheel.

[PorkSkins]

this is what i said in post #33 on the point you raise.

i watched last year and saw a better qb fundamentally, but i thought he looked too mechanical. Then, by chance, i heard jason in an interview say that jim zorn keeps telling him he looks too mechanical. This year, he has pushed past the mechanical stage and looks more natural. That's the part that you and gallwey missed. You begin by practicing sound mechanics, then with enough repetition, the subconscious mind takes over and the movements become habit.

then, when wyvern raised the same issue, reaganaut appeared to agree with him. That's when thelongshot said:

you {reaganaut] agree, but zorn said basically the same thing in training camp in reference to colt, that the techniques taught have to come second nature without him thinking about it, and that takes time.

and i added:

zorn said the same thing about the receivers learning to run their routes precisely.

game,set, match.