holmester Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 How is this any different then any of the other crybaby/we suck/waa waa/fire Zorn threads? Is it because of its uneccessary length that contains the same thing stated over and over again? Or is it because its written by a ES'er with 30,000 posts who was once a mod or someone important or something like that? This is getting old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Brown #43 Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 If Zorn is going to be the total nitwit who TWICE goes for it on fourth and one while being up by 2, it won't matter if he is the coach or not. This guy has done some interesting statistical analysis into why coaches should go for it on 4th and short far more often than they do, and he even said "Jim Zorn is my new hero" after he went for it twice on 4th at the end of the Rams game. Agree or disagree, he makes a pretty compelling argument. It's a long read that's broken into several parts, but he's clearly done his homework on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 How is this any different then any of the other crybaby/we suck/waa waa/fire Zorn threads? Is it because of its uneccessary length that contains the same thing stated over and over again? Or is it because its written by a ES'er with 30,000 posts who was once a mod or someone important or something like that? This is getting old. yet you found it necessary to come in here and complain about it? oh irony, how i love thee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted September 25, 2009 Author Share Posted September 25, 2009 I don't understand how it WASN'T smart to go for it both times, particuarly since the Rams were out of time outs. Working all the time off the clock while trying to put away the game seemed like a good plan to me. The only unfortunate thing is that the OL couldn't execute it on the last play of the drive. Love ya brother, but you do not characterize those as good plays. EVEN if BOTH worked, they are so wildly unconventional and ridiculous as to be astoundingly frightening. If he were working time off the clock, he'd not have called a play that let Betts near the sideline. What he should have been trying to do is score. When you have a team you can put down by a touchdown late and one which has no timeouts you just go ahead and do that. It's just not a hard thing to do. If we were an awesome team of great players and astoundingly good offense, maybe you give him a freebie on that. The problem is doing what he did ISN'T instilling confidence in his players. It's injecting panic. At that point in the game the only play everyone knows is the field goal. Not doing it is so off-the-wall as to be about the worst call you'll ever see. Until you saw it a second time. Except at least the first time you could fall back to running off time. The second time, we either score or we get stuffed. There is no time. As for stepping up, I'll say Moss hasn't. But it's hard for you to openly admit Cooley and ARE are doing great, then suggest Campbell needs more. Does he need 10 guys playing at a hall of fame level to be ok? When Kelly blew his defender away for a touchdown on the opening play, did he need to step it up even more by diving backward for the underthrown ball? I don't hold it against Campbell, since he throws a bad deep ball, but, be realistic. He's got two receivers playing lights out and he can't throw deep. So, focus on the positives of those two, throw deep just to make them think you will, and carve them up in the middle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maskedsuperstar Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 It's not just offense; this team hasn't had an organizational identity since Snyder bought the team. You know what the Eagles, Patriots, Colts, Giants, Steelers, Ravens, and Titans are about. Certain adjectives are used to describe these teams. And these teams are defined by their physicality or their passing games or their resiliency or their intelligence. You see the Steelers helmet and it stands for something. We are defined by our dysfunction and lack of identity. Not good. We need a legitimate GM to come in and bring a vision of how a team should be. If it means he can work with the players we have, great. If we have to clean house, fine. I just can't buy what they're putting out there right now. The last 2 years, things have changed. Fans fail to recognize some of the things that have happened. The teams that you have mentioned have 1 thing the Skins haven't had. Stability!!!!! How can you or any other fan expect too win changing coaches every year? They won't win. The Eagles, a WCO team, struggled with the offense when Reid got there. They dink and dunk down the field. Didn't score many points, relying on the defense to bail them out. But as the years went on, the offense has been one of the best in the league. Things take time. No way will the Skins win, changing systems every year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 This is getting old. Yah you should probably leave. I mean, when I think a place sucks, that's normally what I do. Crazy ****, I know. Now, if you'd like to comment further, do so in a Private Message. ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holmester Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 yet you found it necessary to come in here and complain about it?oh irony, how i love thee. Yet, you complain about my complaint. Whats ironic is when BLC criticizes someone for complaining. :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted September 25, 2009 Author Share Posted September 25, 2009 How is this any different then any of the other crybaby/we suck/waa waa/fire Zorn threads? Is it because of its uneccessary length that contains the same thing stated over and over again? Or is it because its written by a ES'er with 30,000 posts who was once a mod or someone important or something like that? This is getting old. For one, the conversation is pretty civil and interesting to this point, without being flaming and ridiculous. It is absolutely an angry, crybaby, we suck, waa waa, fire Zorn thread. And it differs, perhaps ONLY slightly, in that I'm still rooting for my team and Zorn's success and don't likely seem like I hate the universe. Any post which takes the time to provide a reasonable level of thought will have merit, whether it is shared by dozens or unique to that individual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 The last 2 years, things have changed. Fans fail to recognize some of the things that have happened. The teams that you have mentioned have 1 thing the Skins haven't had. Stability!!!!! How can you or any other fan expect too win changing coaches every year? They won't win.The Eagles, a WCO team, struggled with the offense when Reid got there. They dink and dunk down the field. Didn't score many points, relying on the defense to bail them out. But as the years went on, the offense has been one of the best in the league. Things take time. No way will the Skins win, changing systems every year. eagles went 11-5 in reids second year and mcnabbs first year as a starter. thats why they have stability, things just clicked right away. things dont take years and years like some of you suggest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Yet, you complain about my complaint. Whats ironic is when BLC criticizes someone for complaining. :laugh: dont look back in anger dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88Comrade2000 Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Any post by Art is welcome. Us longtime Esers value his opinion. I agree that Zorn should be fired. I just feel if we do it now, we are writing off the season. Buges would be the natural interim head coach give his previous experience with the Raiders and Cardinals. I just think that if we are to change coaches in the season, then it's pretty much over for 2009. I don't think our group of players could rebound and still attempt a playoff run. Even Bugel couldn't get them motivated to play better. Alot of them would just quit. Now the bye week would be the perfect time to make a change but still it won't change the fact the season is over. Just wondering who would call the plays if Zorn were let go Monday. You really believe this team could still rebound with an interim coach? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan035 Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 This team is characterized by one thing - fits and starts. We drive down the field until we get to the red zone and then quit. Zorn has to implement plays which can maximize the Redskins' chances of getting into the end zone. And he has to do it now with the players he has not the ones he wishes he had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildbill Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Nice write up Art, well stated. I don't see it the way you do-with Marty, Norv, and Steve, I never felt we were close to breaking out. To be honest, even when Gibbs returned I didn't think we would ever be any better than a 9-7 Wildcard team. With this team, however, and under Zorn's watch, I see a team that's on the verge of breaking out in a big way come soon- almost like a team that about to erupt. 180 out I suppose- you think it's over and I think we're about to begin......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slacky McSlackAss Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Art, the idea of going for 4th was a good one. He wanted to put the game on ice and go for the kill. Something we haven't seen out of this team in a while. But running a stretch play on 4th and goal had to be about the dumbest ****ing thing you could do in that situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icbmayday Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Great post............Im hoping for the best as always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLongshot Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Love ya brother, but you do not characterize those as good plays. EVEN if BOTH worked, they are so wildly unconventional and ridiculous as to be astoundingly frightening. If he were working time off the clock, he'd not have called a play that let Betts near the sideline.What he should have been trying to do is score. When you have a team you can put down by a touchdown late and one which has no timeouts you just go ahead and do that. It's just not a hard thing to do. If we were an awesome team of great players and astoundingly good offense, maybe you give him a freebie on that. The problem is doing what he did ISN'T instilling confidence in his players. It's injecting panic. At that point in the game the only play everyone knows is the field goal. Not doing it is so off-the-wall as to be about the worst call you'll ever see. Until you saw it a second time. Except at least the first time you could fall back to running off time. The second time, we either score or we get stuffed. There is no time. I guess we have different views on this, but I can't ever call going for it on 4th and 1 by running the ball a "panic" move. I also can't say that making such a call doesn't instill confidence in the offense to pick it up. It is ironic this is being said when fans railed against Gibbs' decision to kick the field goal in the Miami game in overtime. Back then, the argument was that we needed to ram it down their throat rather than "settle" for a field goal. Now we are back to that. Also, I disagree that we weren't trying to score. Zorn wanted to score and put the game away. It is something people were frustrated with Gibbs about for most of his tenure here, that he'd only do just enough to win a game. As for stepping up, I'll say Moss hasn't. But it's hard for you to openly admit Cooley and ARE are doing great, then suggest Campbell needs more. Does he need 10 guys playing at a hall of fame level to be ok? When Kelly blew his defender away for a touchdown on the opening play, did he need to step it up even more by diving backward for the underthrown ball? What I'm saying isn't about superhuman effort. It is about making the plays in front of you and playing smart. It is about Sellars making the catch. It is about ARE throwing the ball away when the play isn't there. It is about Moss holding onto the ball rather than fumbling, and about Montgomery making that block that allows Campbell to find Moss deep. I don't hold it against Campbell, since he throws a bad deep ball, but, be realistic. He's got two receivers playing lights out and he can't throw deep. So, focus on the positives of those two, throw deep just to make them think you will, and carve them up in the middle. My point being that it was never good enough under Gibbs and it probably isn't good enough for most teams. The good teams are able to spread the ball around so that teams can't focus on certain players. Kelly's play last Sunday was promising, but he's still getting worked into the offense after spending most of a year and a half dealing with his knee. Production there isn't going to be instant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSO Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 I get what you're saying Art, I really do. There's just no excuse for the amount of mistakes and just utter inability to control a game at this point. They've been inconsistent, error-prone, and just stubborn in their refusal to make the change when it's obvious they need to, both on offense and defense. But here's the thing. From week 1 to week 2, Zorn did allow Campbell to play under shotgun more. He also allowed him to run the hurry up more. He did call a more aggressive game as well from the get go, as evidenced by the deep pass to Malcolm Kelly. If you look at it objectively, he actually had our offense improved in every facet except the red zone. That being said, the players failed him there more than anything else. Same goes for Blache and the defense. Both Rogers and Hall played up close more, though not enough, and not when it was warranted like when Steven Jackson caught an easy first down against a soft Rogers... but they changed that up and the next time Steven Jackson lined up out wide they were up on him. What I saw is a team that DID evaluate, contrary to what you are saying here. I have to disagree with you about firing Zorn, because I'm a homer of course with all the hope in the world when it comes to my favorite team, but also because this week this team had every excuse to become outwardly dysfunctional, but didn't do it. They were absolutely depressed after this game in the locker room, and Zorn was able to keep them together. They came out the next few days after having gone over the film saying the same thing Zorn was saying, and I have no reason to doubt that they were lying about it. You had players like Cooley and Portis defend this team even against its own fans, and they did so with firm conviction. You have an entire coaching staff and roster of players all saying the same thing, understanding the same things, and believing the same thing. Everything we've seen from them this week has shown that this team is actually a team, more than any other time since Sean Taylor's death. I know that it's easy to respond to this saying they always say the same things anyway, or that they won't come out and openly bash the coach... and I would normally agree, but not this time. The entire city is up in arms, the fans were booing, and the media has been as shark-like as they've ever been, yet these guys are fighting everyone off with the same words and attitude and they're doing it together. I'm thinking this is a blessing in disguise, a tipping point so to speak. Maybe it might go the other way as you insinuate... but I'm going to hope and pray it doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Good thread Art. I was at about the same place you are now. Until a day or two ago. I'll kick off my thoughts about how I see it in a few hours before I head out. 3am is going to come early, so I'll see you tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted September 25, 2009 Author Share Posted September 25, 2009 It's certainly possible that the events surrounding this week become the point the team rallies around and emerges from slumber. It happened with Marty, where the point was hatred of Marty. It happened with Gibbs when 5 in a row or we don't go became a slogan players believed. It happened again with Gibbs when Taylor died. The Redskins are rarely just good. They can, at times, GET good, if they find enough reason to become good. I'd love for it to be this week, the boos and avalanche of criticism against Zorn gets everyone together as one united, breathtaking team for the year. Such runs are not sustainable, but even for a year, it goes to show when this team gets itself together and motivitated under a SINGLE motive, they do fine. It's also a sign that very rarely are all the pieces working together as one. What you say IS in fact what typically makes this team play better. It does typically respond to bad times with the best it has. Also typically it is better for this team to unify late because once it gets fat and sassy, it drops a game it ought never drop. But, that's a hurdle we can cross when we're, say, 3 or 4 and 1 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted September 25, 2009 Author Share Posted September 25, 2009 Good thread Art. I was at about the same place you are now. Until a day or two ago. I'll kick off my thoughts about how I see it in a few hours before I head out. 3am is going to come early, so I'll see you tomorrow. TK. Give me a ring on my cell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark The Homer Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Art - looking fwd to the blog. Especially the part where you're at the bar in the hotel the night before and Sonny is making a point about Zorn's playcalling while he's chewing on the end of his unlit cigar... PS: I'd five star this baby but it's telling me I've already rated the thread :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tr1 Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Fire Zorn? But...but...he looks great in a suit at interview time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mackdaddydean Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 In the midst of all this "will they break their streak" and "i hope our offense works" and "we better blow them out" and "im worried" talk......has everyone forgotten that the Redskins OWN the lions. I mean like the Lions have won like 1 game against us in the past 40 years or something ridiculous like that. We have their number. I'm not gunna say its going to be the greatest show on turf Sunday, but we will win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mackdaddydean Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Art, Other than this article being extremely melodramatic, i want to give you a piece of advice in the form of a quote from your own article: "Its Week 2 of Season 2." Have a little patience. Sure, you could see his play calling as "desperate" or you could see it as backbone. Hell, i remember when we wouldn't go for it if our season depended on it under Gibbs 2.0. I understand why you are upset. You're a Redskins fan. You expect excellence. And I'm right there with ya, but if you take a step back, realize three things. 1) Its only Week 2....theres PLENTY of season left 2) We are 1-1. Same as the Patriots, Same as the Cowboys, Same as Eagles etc 3) Its only the 2nd season of a NEW offense and a QB in that offense. Sometimes it takes a few years to run it perfect. Much love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Jim Zorn is not a game day strategist and probably never will be. He will need help there. But he has been training the team to run a ball control WCO passing game as its base offense. There's nothing wrong with that. Yes, the spread will be effective, but does anyone want to bet that a team will be successful going spread full time? What happens, for example, if Rex Ryan's overload blitzes, as used to throttle Brady's Patriots, catches on as a spread killer? It appears to me that Zorn's passing game is on the verge of succeeding. The QB and the receivers are getting the hang of it. I am more concerned with Blache's defense. Same story as last year. I thought we had the talent to be a dominant defense, not one that would allow an Eli Manning to direct five clock-eating drives. Was I wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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