Jim Zorn = Stop Gap till the Next Big Splash Hire

[SkinsFTW]

What is also funny is I remember a lot of people loving the decision to hire Zorn as HC. I wasn't one of them.

[Karl W]

The hiring of Zorn was baffling, which ever way you look at it and reeked of desperation. From qb coach at Seattle, then given the job of OC (in spite of the fact he had no previous experience as OC) by Snyder, then promoted to HC almost on a whim when no-one else wanted the job. Can you think of any other team that would appoint it's HC in such a farcical and uttelry unprofessional way (hmmm, maybe the Raiders!) Utterly bizarre. The organization seems to be nothing more than a big toy for Danny to play and tinker with.

The other three head coaches hired in 2008 also were not former coordinators, so yes, I can think of other teams that appoint HCs without OC experience. And you forget that Jim Fassel (former HQ) and Gregg Williams (former HQ) were the only other serious candidates for the Redskins at that time, and were rejected in favor of Zorn after multiple interviews. (In fact, Williams was interviewed for three full days.) In fact Fassel is still talking about how irritated he was that he didn't get the job. I don't think that was baffling or desperate, but in any event the decision certainly wasn't made on a whim.

It is interesting looking back on this board in Oct/Nov 2008 and seeing what was said about Zorn. Everyone thought that he walked on water. No one was complaining about his experience or the method of his appointment then.

[bishtw]

I'll settle for any new coach whose first step is to announce an open QB competition and whose second step is to Draft Tim Tebow.

You lost me at "draft Tim Tebow"

[hail2skins]

I don't think Snyder is going to be quick to pull the hook on Zorn. After the long process he underwent before winding back up with the guy he first hired as OC, I think Dan has a lot of his own credibility riding on this one. If he were to fire Zorn after only two seasons Snyder would finally have to admit that he has no clue what he's doing when it comes to hiring coaches and for once get the hell out of the way. Barring a huge collapse to a 5-11 season, he's probbaly going to give Zorn at least four seasons.

[Johns Bass]

I hear that Cowher will be available for next season...as long as he doesn't think that 'Hail to the Redskins' is annoying, I like this a lot.

[jflow78]

Snyder hasn't fired a coach since Schottenheimer.

He hasn't forced a QB on a coach since George.

he's not nearly as bad an owner as people say.

I completely agree. He also left the personel moves in Gibbs' hands, which I think is a horrible move. Don't get me wrong, I don't want the owner running personell decisions, but Vinny started his term as our GM last season, and we've been doing fine. Jason Taylor was a bad move, but name another. Our drafts have been better than average, at least, and pretty good really. Our free agent hires (none last season) I've been pretty happy with too. Coaching is the issue at this point, not management (unless you're talking about hiring coaches).

I'd be more than happy with Holmgren (the guy who took two franchises to the SB), or Shanahan, and I can almost guarantee we're going to get another West Coast coach if we do hire a new one next season. BUT, never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever think it's a good idea to let the coach run the personell decisions for your team, that's the dumbest thing that can possibly happen. Holmgren was great in Green Bay, and then awful in Seattle, until he gave up his GM duties. Shanahan was great in Denver, until he took over the GM duties, Gibbs never handled GM duties the first time around and won 3 SBs, the second time around, got to the playoffs twice. Horrible idea to let coaches take over GM duties. Let Vinny keep doing his job, and hire another WC coach.

Like I said, I'd be happy with Holmgren or Shanahan.

[NewCliche21]

I completely agree. He also left the personel moves in Gibbs' hands, which I think is a horrible move. Don't get me wrong, I don't want the owner running personell decisions, but Vinny started his term as our GM last season, and we've been doing fine. Jason Taylor was a bad move, but name another. Our drafts have been better than average, at least, and pretty good really. Our free agent hires (none last season) I've been pretty happy with too. Coaching is the issue at this point, not management (unless you're talking about hiring coaches).

I'd be more than happy with Holmgren (the guy who took two franchises to the SB), or Shanahan, and I can almost guarantee we're going to get another West Coast coach if we do hire a new one next season. BUT, never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever think it's a good idea to let the coach run the personell decisions for your team, that's the dumbest thing that can possibly happen. Holmgren was great in Green Bay, and then awful in Seattle, until he gave up his GM duties. Shanahan was great in Denver, until he took over the GM duties, Gibbs never handled GM duties the first time around and won 3 SBs, the second time around, got to the playoffs twice. Horrible idea to let coaches take over GM duties. Let Vinny keep doing his job, and hire another WC coach.

Like I said, I'd be happy with Holmgren or Shanahan.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh:

Portis

Moss

Griffin

Washington

Sellers

Taylor

Cooley

Daniels

Rogers

Springs

And the list goes on. The only player who was on this team BEFORE Gibbs who is worth a damn is Samuels.

[NoVaSkins21]

IF they do get rid of Zorn, I don't want Gruden at all. After the Bucs fired him, there were stories coming out from players down there that he would say one thing to certain players and something else to other players. Shanahan or Holmgren would be much better IMO IF they were to fire Zorn.

[MrJL]

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh:

Portis

Moss

Griffin

Washington

Sellers

Taylor

Cooley

Daniels

Rogers

Springs

And the list goes on. The only player who was on this team BEFORE Gibbs who is worth a damn is Samuels.

if the Redskins have been guilty of anything recently it's focusing on the flashy positions. Not players mind you, like early in Snyder's run, but to many defensive backs and recievers.

[MrJL]

Isn't it funny that all these years later we are still arguing about Snyder needing to hire people to run the team because the management is the joke of the league? I think that's been the argument since 2000 and in 2001 he hired Marty only to fire him less than a year later because Snyder wasn't having any fun.

and because the team really seemed to hate Marty

[jflow78]

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh:

Portis

Moss

Griffin

Washington

Sellers

Taylor

Cooley

Daniels

Rogers

Springs

And the list goes on. The only player who was on this team BEFORE Gibbs who is worth a damn is Samuels.

You mean the only players who were on this team AND ARE CURRENTLY or WERE RECENTLY on this team? I agree completely. And I'll give all the credit for those successes to Gibbs, as long as all of the failures during his time as Coach/GM are also given to him (instead of Snyder or Vinny like people love to do, give all the credit to Gibbs and all the failure to S&V) because Gibbs was clearly the man overseeing all personell decisions during his tenure.

I don't think you'd argue that Gibbs was 100% in personell moves either, also who cleared out all our talent, Spurrier (who got everything he wanted) and Snyder. Vinny has only been the GM for 1 and 1/2 seasons now. I didn't say Gibbs did an atrochious job with personell, but we won only one playoff game. When he had a GM, he won 3 superbowls. Comparitively that's not very good. And I would be that he would have done a better job coaching (wouldn't have needed to bring in Saunders) if he hadn't been burdened with GM duties. I think we would have beat Seattle the year they went to the SB. It was like after the first quarter we ran out of ideas.

Coaches aren't good GMs. I think it's just too much work for one individual to sufficiently devote enough time to both responsibilities and be a resounding success in the way we all want our team to be.

That's why I said, IF we hire a new coach, I would be happy with Holmgren or Shanahan, as long as they don't have GM responsibilities. Should the coach have input into who they get? Of course, but they shouldn't have the responsibility of doing both jobs.

[NewCliche21]

You mean the only players who were on this team AND ARE CURRENTLY or WERE RECENTLY on this team? I agree completely. And I'll give all the credit for those successes to Gibbs, as long as all of the failures during his time as Coach/GM are also given to him (instead of Snyder or Vinny like people love to do, give all the credit to Gibbs and all the failure to S&V) because Gibbs was clearly the man overseeing all personell decisions during his tenure:

I don't think you'd argue that Gibbs was 100% in personell moves either, also who cleared out all our talent, Spurrier (who got everything he wanted) and Snyder. Vinny has only been the GM for 1 and 1/2 seasons now. I didn't say Gibbs did an atrochious job with personell, but we won only one playoff game. When he had a GM, he won 3 superbowls. Comparitively that's not very good.

Coaches aren't good GMs. I think it's just too much work for one individual to sufficiently devote enough time to both responsibilities and be a resounding success in the way we all want our team to be.

That's why I said, IF we hire a new coach, I would be happy with Holmgren or Shanahan, as long as they don't have GM responsibilities. Should the coach have input into who they get? Of course, but they shouldn't have the responsibility of doing both jobs.

What failures? Lloyd (his) and Arch (Williams's)? Sure, I'll give that to him.

But yeah, a Beathard would've rocked. However, Gibbs's decisions outside of Lloyd and Saunders (vomit) were insanely good. He righted an amazingly awful ship before his departure. Lombardi? Nah, but he put the pieces in place for Zorn to fail with.

[NewCliche21]

if the Redskins have been guilty of anything recently it's focusing on the flashy positions. Not players mind you, like early in Snyder's run, but to many defensive backs and recievers.

Well, we had no corners, so Rogers and Springs were great pick ups. I don't think that anyone could argue anything against Sean Taylor.

Receivers? Cooley and Moss are two of our top players at either position, well, ever (Moss is slowing down, but 2005 = wow). The rest of the players aren't DBs or receivers.

[HailGreen28]

You mean the only players who were on this team AND ARE CURRENTLY or WERE RECENTLY on this team? I agree completely. And I'll give all the credit for those successes to Gibbs, as long as all of the failures during his time as Coach/GM are also given to him (instead of Snyder or Vinny like people love to do, give all the credit to Gibbs and all the failure to S&V) because Gibbs was clearly the man overseeing all personell decisions during his tenure.

I don't think you'd argue that Gibbs was 100% in personell moves either, also who cleared out all our talent, Spurrier (who got everything he wanted) and Snyder. Vinny has only been the GM for 1 and 1/2 seasons now. I didn't say Gibbs did an atrochious job with personell, but we won only one playoff game. When he had a GM, he won 3 superbowls. Comparitively that's not very good. And I would be that he would have done a better job coaching (wouldn't have needed to bring in Saunders) if he hadn't been burdened with GM duties. I think we would have beat Seattle the year they went to the SB. It was like after the first quarter we ran out of ideas.

Coaches aren't good GMs. I think it's just too much work for one individual to sufficiently devote enough time to both responsibilities and be a resounding success in the way we all want our team to be.

That's why I said, IF we hire a new coach, I would be happy with Holmgren or Shanahan, as long as they don't have GM responsibilities. Should the coach have input into who they get? Of course, but they shouldn't have the responsibility of doing both jobs.

Gibbs II beat the living crap out of anything Vinny and Danny produced before, and since.

The players listed, the playoffs every other year, the pride and stability restored, the list goes on........ Gibbs was a huge upgrade coming back, and it's pathetic to nitpick Gibbs while not mentioning the trainwreck we're having to suffer again, now.

[jflow78]

What failures? Lloyd (his) and Arch (Williams's)? Sure, I'll give that to him.

But yeah, a Beathard would've rocked. However, Gibbs's decisions outside of Lloyd and Saunders (vomit) were insanely good. He righted an amazingly awful ship before his departure. Lombardi? Nah, but he put the pieces in place for Zorn to fail with.

There were other things, but I don't care to argue over it. Like I said, I'm mostly in agreement with you here. Gibbs took us from bottom feeders to competitive, but I still think he could have done more with a GM.

Shanahan won 2 straight SBs with a GM, and the Broncos were "competitive" every season while he was doing both jobs.

With Holmgren, he turned the Seahawks from the Clippers of the NFL to a "competitive" team, but couldn't get them over the hump until he gave up his GM job. Then they went to the SB.

Even Parcells couldn't do it. He won the SB with the Giants as a coach only, went to the SB with the Pats as a coach only (then quit because he didn't feel he had enough input into personell decisions), he couldn't get there again as the coach and GM with the Jets, or the Cowboys (although Jerry pretty much sabatoged him).

I love Coach Gibbs, and I wish he had stayed, but I wonder what he could have done if he'd been allowed to focus more on coaching than GM stuff, that's all.

[Karl W]

I don't think Snyder is going to be quick to pull the hook on Zorn. After the long process he underwent before winding back up with the guy he first hired as OC, I think Dan has a lot of his own credibility riding on this one. If he were to fire Zorn after only two seasons Snyder would finally have to admit that he has no clue what he's doing when it comes to hiring coaches and for once get the hell out of the way. Barring a huge collapse to a 5-11 season, he's probbaly going to give Zorn at least four seasons.

I agree with your conclusions, although for different reasons. As long as the team manages 8-8 and shows some improvement, I think Zorn stays. And the Giants game already demonstrated improvement in several areas (according to experts who reviewed the game tapes, not the fools who post on this board), and the team should easily manage 8-8.

Which means I have to read "fire Zorn" posts for at least another year.

[jflow78]

Well, we had no corners, so Rogers and Springs were great pick ups. I don't think that anyone could argue anything against Sean Taylor.

Receivers? Cooley and Moss are two of our top players at either position, well, ever (Moss is slowing down, but 2005 = wow). The rest of the players aren't DBs or receivers.

We had to pick up DBs when we did so I don't know why anyone would argue they were bad pickups. But, Gibbs, also didn't show much interest in drafting linemen in the early rounds. Moss is still our best WR, but hopefully Zorn will call some plays that will allow our WRs to succeed (Kelly and Moss). But I'm not convinced it's Vinny's fault our team doesn't look ready to compete.

Last Sunday didn't look like we were overmatched, it looked more like we weren't willing to take chances. Our defense looked like it was in prevent the whole game (willing to give yards as long as we don't risk a TD), and our offense was playing small ball all game. I hope Zorn will change his approach a little, other than that I like him. Blache too.

[NewCliche21]

There were other things, but I don't care to argue over it. Like I said, I'm mostly in agreement with you here. Gibbs took us from bottom feeders to competitive, but I still think he could have done more with a GM.

Shanahan won 2 straight SBs with a GM, and the Broncos were "competitive" every season while he was doing both jobs.

With Holmgren, he turned the Seahawks from the Clippers of the NFL to a "competitive" team, but couldn't get them over the hump until he gave up his GM job. Then they went to the SB.

Even Parcells couldn't do it. He won the SB with the Giants as a coach only, went to the SB with the Pats as a coach only (then quit because he didn't feel he had enough input into personell decisions), he couldn't get there again as the coach and GM with the Jets, or the Cowboys (although Jerry pretty much sabatoged him).

I love Coach Gibbs, and I wish he had stayed, but I wonder what he could have done if he'd been allowed to focus more on coaching than GM stuff, that's all.

I can't argue that Gibbs could've been even better with a GM because I am in total agreement. I just don't want to knock his personnel moves is all.

What I don't like about Shanny and Holmgren is that they didn't win minus Elway and Favre. Not that conference championships aren't great, but who remembers any conference champion outside of 1983?

[NewCliche21]

We had to pick up DBs when we did so I don't know why anyone would argue they were bad pickups. But, Gibbs, also didn't show much interest in drafting linemen in the early rounds. Moss is still our best WR, but hopefully Zorn will call some plays that will allow our WRs to succeed (Kelly and Moss). But I'm not convinced it's Vinny's fault our team doesn't look ready to compete.

Last Sunday didn't look like we were overmatched, it looked more like we weren't willing to take chances. Our defense looked like it was in prevent the whole game (willing to give yards as long as we don't risk a TD), and our offense was playing small ball all game.

Well, it's not Vinny's fault; it's bad coaching IMO. I don't like Blache or Zorn right now. Fourth overall defense means nothing to me because it's all about yards, and I care about points.

As for Gibbs, the players that we DID get in the first rounds were fantastic (though Campbell is, well, there are other threads for that). He also made the moves for Daniels and Griffin, and he brought Bugel for the lines.

[jflow78]

Gibbs II beat the living crap out of anything Vinny and Danny produced before, and since.

The players listed, the playoffs every other year, the pride and stability restored, the list goes on........ Gibbs was a huge upgrade coming back, and it's pathetic to nitpick Gibbs while not mentioning the trainwreck we're having to suffer again, now.

I don't think any of us have said that Gibbs didn't pull the Skins out of the ocean, something akin to salvaging the titanic, but since he's left, our personell decisions haven't been bad. What exactly is the huge falacy Vinny has committed in the past two seasons? I admit Jason Taylor was a bad decision, mostly because of the pick we gave up, but we've recovered from it pretty well I think.

Yes, Gibbs was a huge upgrade coming back, what *********tard wouldn't agree that Gibbs was an improvement over Spurrier? I'd love to see a post from one person in the entire Redskins' nation who would argue that we should have kept Spurrier over Gibbs, ONE. Again, no one is arguing that.

However, there doesn't appear to be a "trainwreck" on the personell side of this team. Like I said, last week appeared to be more of a coaching train wreck. We weren't overmatched, we just failed to expose the Giants weaknesses and instead ran straight up the middle and threw passes short of the first down line 9/10 times. Hopefully Zorn will recover and reconfigure.

I don't really want a new coach, it usually means we're going to have to wait another year for something good to happen, but if there's no improvement then what do you do? Continue to blame Vinny even though he's not coaching or calling the plays? I think Zorn could be a really good coach, and he proved it the first half of last season, I just think he needs to be more willing to take risks to get bigger rewards, ie throwing in the red zone, getting Blache to play tighter defense (anyone notice the only all out blitz we had last week resulted in a TO?).

[jflow78]

What I don't like about Shanny and Holmgren is that they didn't win minus Elway and Favre. Not that conference championships aren't great, but who remembers any conference champion outside of 1983?

I agree, but Holmgren did get back to the SB with Hasselbeck. He also coached Favre, Brunell (when he was good), Hasselbeck, Steve Young, Joe Montana, and for a short period Kurt Warner. I have a feeling that bad QBing wouldn't be tolerated, and the solution would be found quickly (whether it's getting a new one or not).

I'd probably have to go with Holmgren over Shanahan, but we'll see. Shanahan did put together an amazing gameplan for their first SB against the Packers. I like his zone blocking schemes, he's always got a strong OLine, and he coached Cutler pretty well, Marshall too. And for a long time RB could have been filled by the Hambrugarler and he would have gotten 1,000 yards.

Our defense is talented enough that we shouldn't have to play prevent for an entire game (a Blache problem), and I think Shanahan could put our offense together nicely.

[captain_obvious]

Danny will get rid of him after this season (JC too!), hire a big name proven coach and QB, and we'll let them give it a whirl for a few years.

I agree. I am going to try desperately to not sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I think Zorn was brought in as a WCO "bridge" for Shanahan or Holmgren, so they won't have to start from scratch. Don't forget to add an OL or two (quality) along with a QB, and the trick is played out.

I have felt since the offseason that the offense has been set up to fail.

[MrJL]

I can't argue that Gibbs could've been even better with a GM because I am in total agreement. I just don't want to knock his personnel moves is all.

What I don't like about Shanny and Holmgren is that they didn't win minus Elway and Favre. Not that conference championships aren't great, but who remembers any conference champion outside of 1983?

whoever's able to remember the Super Bowl losers as well as the winners?

[MrJL]

Well, we had no corners, so Rogers and Springs were great pick ups. I don't think that anyone could argue anything against Sean Taylor.

Receivers? Cooley and Moss are two of our top players at either position, well, ever (Moss is slowing down, but 2005 = wow). The rest of the players aren't DBs or receivers.

I just looked back over the list and I'll admit I was wrong.

I was talking about guys like Lloyd and Archeleta but also about picks like Taylor Jacobs, Raseed Bauman, Andre Lott and Cliff Russell.

But looking back again they drafted a startling number of FBs for a team that only ever carries one and with the exceptions of McIntosh and Blades where they've really struck out is LB

[icbmayday]

Zorn would have made a great assistant coach, he should not be calling any plays.