Trust in Zorn?

[Oldfan]

Zorn is banging his head on the wall trying to convert Jason into his former self. Nothing against Zorn, but why did we bring in a guy to run a team, who was not even in charge of an offense before? If he fails, look no further than him having no experience and blame the front office..

Which proven offensive mind would you have wanted here?

[Oldfan]

remember when al saunders offense in the preseason was so vanilla and we were just hiding all the secret awesome plays? LOL

What's your point? All offenses that don't show much in the preseason are failures?

[RandyHolt]

Some like to pull out that Gibbs I always went basic vanilla in preseason. Went 0-4. Won the superbowl. But dont forget, with our unnatural size advantage on the offensive line during that period, teams could not stop us when they knew what we were going to do. Going vanilla didnt help nor hurt our teams one bit.

T36 Yes I think we can. The first half of last season should be proof to you. If you choose to ignore our start last year, so be it, just dont drag the rest of us down. Thats all we have to live on!

[RandyHolt]

Which proven offensive mind would you have wanted here?

I dunno, how about just keeping Al Saunders in place since we finally figured out his offense. So you were thrilled to get Zorn i presume. Why was that? He was good with the media? His coaching resume certainly cant be it. Do you like the west coast? Please share.

[Thinking Skins]

All I can do is make gut layperson reactions to what I see him do versus past Skin coaches and others on issues like:

Time management

Time outs

Do they walk their talk

How do they handle their players publicly

Does the team look ready to play

Do they come across publicly as strong leaders

I agree with this stuff, but I'd also add things like

- is the team rallying behind him?

- how good is he at adapting to change?

- is he willing to stand up to Snyder/Vinny (which I think he did in getting Jansen benched last year and then released this year)?

- how much does he adapt his scheme to his personnel?

- is he too loyal to vets or too eager to bench a player?

- is he good at noticing the flaws on the team and understanding how to fix them or at least make them less noticeable?

So far he's gotten mixed results from me on this stuff. Hopefully this year's better than last year.

[Taylor 36]

T36 Yes I think we can. The first half of last season should be proof to you. If you choose to ignore our start last year, so be it, just dont drag the rest of us down. Thats all we have to live on!

I'm not ignoring it; I'm actually using it in the basis for my concerns. We collapsed down the stretch, showing that we do not have a coach who handles adversity well. Sure, we had injuries, but ALL teams suffer injuries. Not only were we not able to overcome them, but we did nothing to try to make adjustments for them.

After opponents made adjustments to handle what they saw Zorn doing on tape, we did not make adjustments to beat out their adjustments, either.

[Oldfan]

I dunno, how about just keeping Al Saunders in place since we finally figured out his offense. So you were thrilled to get Zorn i presume. Why was that? He was good with the media? His coaching resume certainly cant be it. Do you like the west coast? Please share.

My favorite was Jim Schwartz, but the Zorn pick made more sense than the others available because a) he hadn't already proven himself to be mediocre and he had ties to a WCO brand closest to the Walsh original which makes sense in today's passing game. Most team, including the patriots have WCO elements in their passing games today.

The Coryell schemes have fallen out of favor. Did you notice that Spags dumped Saunders and is installing a WCO this season?

[Thinking Skins]

I'm not ignoring it; I'm actually using it in the basis for my concerns. We collapsed down the stretch, showing that we do not have a coach who handles adversity well. Sure, we had injuries, but ALL teams suffer injuries. Not only were we not able to overcome them, but we did nothing to try to make adjustments for them.

After opponents made adjustments to handle what they saw Zorn doing on tape, we did not make adjustments to beat out their adjustments, either.

I wouldn't go that far as to say we DIDN'T make adjustments. Our adjustments may not have been enough, but we came close to winning about 3 of those 6 games we lost (Cincy, SF, Dallas), but our defense let us down in the end. I wouldn't put that all on Zorn's lack of adjustments, but moreso on the other team just being better on that day.

Maybe we need to work on how we close out games, but thats a different issue from just the general umbrella of 'adjustments'.

[Oldfan]

After opponents made adjustments to handle what they saw Zorn doing on tape, we did not make adjustments to beat out their adjustments, either.

Zorn ran vanilla WCO which defenses have seen for 25 years and still have trouble stopping when it's executed properly. Teams adjusted to Campbell's inability to hurt them on the blitz. Z tried to adjust, but he didn't have the firepower. You can't make chicken salad with chicken droppings.

[Taylor 36]

I wouldn't go that far as to say we DIDN'T make adjustments. Our adjustments may not have been enough, but we came close to winning about 3 of those 6 games we lost (Cincy, SF, Dallas), but our defense let us down in the end. I wouldn't put that all on Zorn's lack of adjustments, but moreso on the other team just being better on that day.

Maybe we need to work on how we close out games, but thats a different issue from just the general umbrella of 'adjustments'.

How did we adjust?

We ran the same mediocre dump off plays that we were running before, except defenses had planned on that and were shutting it down.

We didn't go to a more shotgun based offense to adjust for the depleated o-line. We kept doing the same things we were doing at the beginning of the season with no more near the same positive results and without switching it up, even in week 17 against the lowly 49ers.

BTW, it is interesting that you point out that the three teams we almost beat were Cincy, SF (try looking at both of their records and tell me that it makes you feel confident that we ALMOST beat them), and Dallas who was in their annual late season fall.

Because our offense could not generate drives or points, it is no wonder that our defense began faultering at the end of games in the second half of the season.

So, again, I would like to know where Zorn showed anything to feel confident about his coaching.

[Thinking Skins]

I dunno, how about just keeping Al Saunders in place since we finally figured out his offense. So you were thrilled to get Zorn i presume. Why was that? He was good with the media? His coaching resume certainly cant be it. Do you like the west coast? Please share.

his coaching tree roots does inspire a bit of awe. Holmgren's got a pretty good coaching tree of success, and then you look a similar guy who made a leap from QB Coach for Holmgren to HC - Andy Reid - and he hasn't done too bad of a job in Philly.But that alone doesn't make him a great coach. So while its easy to back the move, its understandable that some still want to wait and see what he brings.

[Taylor 36]

Zorn ran vanilla WCO which defenses have seen for 25 years and still have trouble stopping when it's executed properly. Teams adjusted to Campbell's inability to hurt them on the blitz. Z tried to adjust, but he didn't have the firepower. You can't make chicken salad with chicken droppings.

Oh, believe me, looking at my post history should tell anyone interested that I feel JC's shortcomings were a large part of the problem (I'm trying as hard as I can from turning this into yet another QB thread). Once again, Zorn is the guy who should be adjusting and adapting to make JC's strengths be more of the center of the offense, or see what we have elsewhere on our roster (especially in what was essentially a meaningless game against the 49ers).

[Thinking Skins]

How did we adjust?

We ran the same mediocre dump off plays that we were running before, except defenses had planned on that and were shutting it down.

But we were in games. We were competitive in games and we almost won games. We had leads late and lost them generally because of our defense.

We didn't go to a more shotgun based offense to adjust for the depleated o-line. We kept doing the same things we were doing at the beginning of the season with no more near the same positive results and without switching it up, even in week 17 against the lowly 49ers.

But it was working well enough to keep us in games.

BTW, it is interesting that you point out that the three teams we almost beat were Cincy, SF (try looking at both of their records and tell me that it makes you feel confident that we ALMOST beat them), and Dallas who was in their annual late season fall.

Because our offense could not generate drives or points, it is no wonder that our defense began faultering at the end of games in the second half of the season.

So, again, I would like to know where Zorn showed anything to feel confident about his coaching.

Again, we almost beat teams. We were about 7 points from being a 10-6 team last year. That should count for something. We were a frakin Casey Rabach batt down from being a 9-7 team last year. We were a Mike Sellars fumble from being a 10-6 team last year.

Then add to that the collapse of our defense in the Dallas, SF and even Baltimore games and its not like we lost games in the second half of the season by scores of like 42-10. We lost most of those games by 7 points or less and some were lost because we couldn't get their offense off the field. You're acting like teams beat the snot out of us. They didn't, or at least the scoreboard didn't show it.

[razmahtaz]

oc in name only i believe Zorn still calls the plays I could be mistake and if sherman smith is really the oc he needs to have his feet put the fire period...

zorn did say in recent interview that he does call the offensive plays. but why a QB coach to be your teams head coach? skins shouldve tried to get june jones...gaurantee the skins would be an exciting team to watch!!!

[razmahtaz]

But we were in games. We were competitive in games and we almost won games. We had leads late and lost them generally because of our defense.

But it was working well enough to keep us in games.

Again, we almost beat teams. We were about 7 points from being a 10-6 team last year. That should count for something. We were a frakin Casey Rabach batt down from being a 9-7 team last year. We were a Mike Sellars fumble from being a 10-6 team last year.

Then add to that the collapse of our defense in the Dallas, SF and even Baltimore games and its not like we lost games in the second half of the season by scores of like 42-10. We lost most of those games by 7 points or less and some were lost because we couldn't get their offense off the field. You're acting like teams beat the snot out of us. They didn't, or at least the scoreboard didn't show it.

if thats the case, the vikings couldve been atleast 14-2, if it werent for a bunch of close games that they let get away

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

Thinking Skins, we were in games because of our defense.

Not because Zorn made adjustments. :2cents:

[Mahons21]

For what its worth, in the CIN, DAL, and SF game our offense only average 15.6 ppg... Not saying the defense didn't make its mistakes, but they certainly weren't the only portion of the team to blame as many posts seem to be suggesting... Two of the games the offense mustered only 10 and 13 points, but the San Fran game certainly comes to mind as a defensive collapse

[Thinking Skins]

For what its worth, in the CIN, DAL, and SF game our offense only average 15.6 ppg... Not saying the defense didn't make its mistakes, but they certainly weren't the only portion of the team to blame as many posts seem to be suggesting... Two of the games the offense mustered only 10 and 13 points, but the San Fran game certainly comes to mind as a defensive collapse

Thinking Skins, we were in games because of our defense.

Not because Zorn made adjustments. :2cents:

But we've been a team thats been based on its defense for about 5 years. Thats not something new. Before the season we were expecting at best an 8-8 season, then we accomplish that and suddenly its a disappointment? When Zorn first came in he spoke about how it took 3 years to get into his offense and how Campbell may take time, etc. Then people got fooled by the 6-2 start and started thinking we were a top team in the league and forgot about the very concerns they had before the season (WR position, OL, Campbell, RB depth, pass rush, turnovers, etc).

The question I had is will Zorn adjust to changes throughout the season (which he didn't totally prove that he could), but also would we be competitive each week. Under Gibbs II, there were several games that we "shoulda" lost, but we somehow came through in the end and were like WTF was that (Dallas miracle for example). I didn't see any of that down the stretch last year. I saw it early, but not late. Was that because of injury, the team being tired, ZOrn's playcalling? I don't know, but its unfair to say "we didn't compete" as if we were losing every game by 4 TDs.

if thats the case, the vikings couldve been atleast 14-2, if it werent for a bunch of close games that they let get away

if they were that close then yeah they could've been. I'm not saying we "shoulda" been 12-4 or anything. I'm just saying that had the ball bounced differently and had we not made some crucial mistakes we could easily have been a playoff team.

[Skinsinparadise]

But we've been a team thats been based on its defense for about 5 years. Thats not something new. Before the season we were expecting at best an 8-8 season, then we accomplish that and suddenly its a disappointment?

I think for most its how they played, many of those games to say that the offense looked ugly is an understatment. Some point out it just happened against good teams in the 2nd half of the season, but it actually happened against some bad defenses in the first half of the season -- do you recall the Browns game where they were shut out for a good chunk of the game.

Zorn said he is mainly in charge of the passing game. When the team had a decent run it was fueled arguably by the running game and the defense, all the areas that Zorn isn't in charge of.

Under Gibbs II, there were several games that we "shoulda" lost, but we somehow came through in the end and were like WTF was that (Dallas miracle for example). I didn't see any of that down the stretch last year. I saw it early, but not late. Was that because of injury, the team being tired, ZOrn's playcalling? I don't know, but its unfair to say "we didn't compete" as if we were losing every game by 4 TDs.

if they were that close then yeah they could've been. I'm not saying we "shoulda" been 12-4 or anything. I'm just saying that had the ball bounced differently and had we not made some crucial mistakes we could easily have been a playoff team.

Under Gibbs II, we lost plenty of nail biters, I recall during his last season in particular we had a terrible stretch of close losses culminating in the Buffalo one.

In terms of the Skins being in games under Zorn. Again, Zorn by his admission, focuses on the passing game. Granted that part of the game is where the Skins were deficent talent wise but if you look at it in a straightforward way, doesn't it appear that every other aspect of the Skins team have kept them in the game, and its Zorn's part of it the passing game is what mainly kept them from victory.

I don't put that all on Zorn, far from it. But it clearly seemed to be the running game and defense keeping them in games, and what was Zorn's contribution to that?

Edit:

So far he's gotten mixed results from me on this stuff. Hopefully this year's better than last year.

I agree, I am mixed on Zorn, too. Just playing devil's advocate some. My my point is I don't see why he should get a complete pass or for that matter he's above reproach when it comes to the team.

[Mark The Homer]

sig: http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/ww171/paf007/gifninja.gif

You gotta be kidding me. You really think that sig is going to stand? As the Ambassador of Goodwill, I strongly advise you to take that down before a real mod sees it and does something unfavorable.

[Thinking Skins]

Zorn said he is mainly in charge of the passing game. When the team had a decent run it was fueled arguably by the running game and the defense, all the areas that Zorn isn't in charge of.

Under Gibbs II, we lost plenty of nail biters, I recall during his last season in particular we had a terrible stretch of close losses culminating in the Buffalo one.

In terms of the Skins being in games under Zorn. Again, Zorn by his admission, focuses on the passing game. Granted that part of the game is where the Skins were deficent talent wise but if you look at it in a straightforward way, doesn't it appear that every other aspect of the Skins team have kept them in the game, and its Zorn's part of it the passing game is what mainly kept them from victory.

I don't put that all on Zorn, far from it. But it clearly seemed to be the running game and defense keeping them in games, and what was Zorn's contribution to that?

But again, we've been a team thats had very little passing game for a while now. The only time our passing game showed any bit of life was when Campbell went down in 2007 and in the early parts of 2008 when we were starting off 4-1.

My thoughts on this is that Zorn actually did adjust in realizing that he couldn't get his passing game fully installed last year and relied more on his running game - particularly against those better defenses (Pitt, Baltimore, Philly, Giants) or those better pass defenses (Pitt, Balt, Philly, Dallas, Giants, Cincy).

[Skinsinparadise]

But again, we've been a team thats had very little passing game for a while now. The only time our passing game showed any bit of life was when Campbell went down in 2007 and in the early parts of 2008 when we were starting off 4-1.

My thoughts on this is that Zorn actually did adjust in realizing that he couldn't get his passing game fully installed last year and relied more on his running game - particularly against those better defenses (Pitt, Baltimore, Philly, Giants) or those better pass defenses (Pitt, Balt, Philly, Dallas, Giants, Cincy).

True, but statistically we slid if I recall all the way back to Gibbs first year. We had a higher ranked offense if I recall even under Saunders' first year.

I don't put it all on Zorn for the most part, and I do think he deserves a pass for last year, but if the team doesn't make progress from last season, I do think Zorn should be evaluated.

[leesburgvaskinsfan]

So far, I trust in Zorn.

It takes time to pull all of the pieces together and this year will be telling for sure. He gets a pass from me his first year. This year he needs to step up. Barring a complete collapse, I think he deserves to be back next year too. If the WCO takes up to three years to master and the players have at least two years to work in it, and things start to come together, then we'll know he is our guy. I agree with other posters that he needs to adapt on the fly and be creative where possible.

A lot of factors went into last season's collapse. Getting bloodied by the Steelers was just awful and what happened beyond that just made me sick but we need to give this guy a chance.

I for one don't want to see another merry-go-round and rebuild, rebuild, rebuild mentality. Winning takes a plan and takes time. I believe Zorn has a plan and now he needs the time.

Hail!

[Oldfan]

Oh, believe me, looking at my post history should tell anyone interested that I feel JC's shortcomings were a large part of the problem (I'm trying as hard as I can from turning this into yet another QB thread). Once again, Zorn is the guy who should be adjusting and adapting to make JC's strengths be more of the center of the offense, or see what we have elsewhere on our roster (especially in what was essentially a meaningless game against the 49ers).

I can agree that Zorn is the one who needs to adjust. What I don't understand is why you think it should have happened yesterday. Your impatience is the sort of thing that Dan Snyder is often accused of.

[Taylor 36]

I can agree that Zorn is the one who needs to adjust. What I don't understand is why you think it should have happened yesterday. Your impatience is the sort of thing that Dan Snyder is often accused of.

Where did yesterday come in to this equation? I never said anything about yesterday, unless you are using that metaphorically to represent last season.