Trust in Zorn?

[chipwhich]

I think you need to remember that Dan and Vinny made the choice to go WCO. Furthermore, they signalled that they realized that the personnel didn't fit when they brought in three rookie receivers who did fit the scheme.

They knew in advance that Zorn would have problems putting it together in year one, so this "lame duck" theory doesn't make much sense to me.

Well maybe lame duck is bad considering they did try and replace Campbell prior to the season.

Given they weren't successful at that Jim Zorn is either a lame duck coach if he is being forced to go with his original scheme, or he better change his scheme in a hurry to accomodate his flaw in his QB.

[Skinsinparadise]

I think you need to remember that Dan and Vinny made the choice to go WCO. Furthermore, they signalled that they realized that the personnel didn't fit when they brought in three rookie receivers who did fit the scheme.

They knew in advance that Zorn would have problems putting it together in year one, so this "lame duck" theory doesn't make much sense to me.

If you go with that line of logic, I agree the Zorn shouldn't be lame duck. If you go with the news media, its practically been beaten to death that Zorn is a lame duck coach this season, some saying they have "sources" with the club. But who knows.

It does seem to be somewhat clear that Snyder likes to have relationships with some players among them is Clinton Portis including them going to Vegas together. I am not arguing that is good practice but it is what it is.

John Keim who has a good reputation as a reporter said that Clinton wasn't alone among players in his distaste for Zorn last season. If the team doesn't perform well and Zorn loses the locker room or at least significant parts of it --- I see him gone.

I have listened to both Cerrato and Snyder in interviews post season about Zorn, I didn't detect an enthusiastic, carte blanche we love this guy response. Really the nicest thing i thought Snyder said about Zorn is something to the effect that he expects him to learn from last season.

I didn't hear either of them say anything to the effect that we think we got a great coach, or we are really excited about him, etc.

[Oldfan]

...I got nailed by certain people on the board like he's untouchable...

So, you're saying your critics are just hyper-sensitive and fail to recognize your valid objections?

Well, from my perspective, if someone says they have lots of doubts about him, well, that's fine. So do I. The jury is still out on a lot of key issues. But, mostly what I have read from you and others is just a lot of vague concerns about his personality.

As for the frequent assertion that his playcalling is terrible. When I read that charge, I take it as a sign that its author knows little about the game of football and is just taking a cheap shot. We just don't have the information available to grade him on his playcalling.

[Oldfan]

Well maybe lame duck is bad considering they did try and replace Campbell prior to the season.

Given they weren't successful at that Jim Zorn is either a lame duck coach if he is being forced to go with his original scheme, or he better change his scheme in a hurry to accomodate his flaw in his QB.

Unless Dan is indeed the buffoon some people think, he will grade Zorn based on how well he has played the cards that were dealt him. The scheme is sound, if the Campbell project fails, they wil try to find a QB who CAN run Zorn's scheme.

From my chair, Jason is much improved over the QB Zorn inherited.

[Oldfan]

If you go with that line of logic, I agree the Zorn shouldn't be lame duck. If you go with the news media, its practically been beaten to death that Zorn is a lame duck coach this season, some saying they have "sources" with the club.

The media speculation is mostly dim-witted based on the perception that Dan Snyder is a clown who hasn't learned anything in his ten years as an owner.

[Skinsinparadise]

So, you're saying your critics are just hyper-sensitive and fail to recognize your valid objections?

Well, from my perspective, if someone says they have lots of doubts about him, well, that's fine. So do I. They jury is still out on a lot of key issues. But, mostly what I have read from you and others is just a lot of vague concerns about his personality.

As for the frequent assertion that his playcalling is terrible. When I read that charge, I take it as a sign that its author knows little about the game of football and is just taking a cheap shot. We just don't have the information available to grade him on his playcalling.

Nope, and in a way you made my point via that sarcastic first sentence -- yeah am cool with people disagreeing and expect it, if we all agreed about everything, the board would be less interesting but I find much more emotional punch than I typically see on this topic (aside from the Campbell debate). Whereas those that gush about Zorn, are left alone with that for the most part. I am just making an observation. It doesn't make me right.

I personally in questioning Zorn do not for the most part get into play calling. Like you, I don't know the play book so I can't really make blanket statements about it. All I can do is make gut layperson reactions to what I see him do versus past Skin coaches and others on issues like:

Time management

Time outs

Do they walk their talk

How do they handle their players publicly

Does the team look ready to play

Do they come across publicly as strong leaders

And I do listen to ex-players who cover the team and figure their observations count for something considering they played the game and know a thing about it. if they tell me things that are consistent with how things look on the playfield to me -- I don't ignore those observations.

That's me, doesn't make me right. Just one man's opinion. Anyone else's opinion is equally valid.

The media speculation is mostly dim-witted based on the perception that Dan Snyder is a clown who hasn't learned anything in his ten years as an owner.

Could be. The thing that gives me bigger pause is Snyder and Cerrato's comments when asked about Zorn this off season. Maybe I missed a better interview but in the ones I heard they didn't sound like guys smitten with Zorn.

[Oldfan]

Time management

Time outs

Do they walk their talk

How do the handle their players publicly

Does the team look ready to play

Do they come across publicly as strong leaders

You list factors which, taken as a whole, are:

-- relatively unimportant

-- in some cases vague and impossible to measure

-- in most cases, they are factors which Zorn will improve with experience

When your focus on your list, you fail to focus on the most important factors:

-- is the scheme sound?

-- does the scheme get the best result from the talent on board?

[derskinsfan]

To answer the OP's question, I think people like the IDEA of Zorn: Relatively young coach, open, offensive minded, perhaps an innovator, someone the team can grow with, almost certainly hungry to prove himself rather than resting on past success and a fat paycheck.

But the idea hasn't yet been matched by reality as far as I can see.

Is he going to prove to be a GOOD head coach? No idea.

Can he turn around the Skins? No idea. But probably not alone (probably needs a better front office structure) and probably not super fast (and right or wrong he probably won't survive another year of sub-.500 ball.)

Is he too "cerebral"? Not fiery enough? Possibly.

Does he have the right people to run the offense he wants to run w/the Skins? Probably not.

Should we be more patient with him? Probably. But we won't be. He needs to have a good season to keep his job. And by good, I mean at least a game or two over .500, which probably means playoffs.

[Oldfan]

Is he too "cerebral"? Not fiery enough? Possibly.

I think your post was on target, but the anti-intellectual attitude of this comment made me laugh since it would eliminate Bill Walsh and Bill Belichick as candidates for the Skins job.

[Taylor 36]

As for the frequent assertion that his playcalling is terrible. When I read that charge, I take it as a sign that its author knows little about the game of football and is just taking a cheap shot. We just don't have the information available to grade him on his playcalling.

What your saying here only has some validity to a certain point. Part of a coach's play calling status is dependent upon his ability to call a play that puts his team in the best situation to win.

Of course, no one outside of the locker room know exactly what a play was designed to do; however, even the most novice of fans watching the game can see that many plays, most at the end of the season, were not working or at least were not plays that the team was prepared to execute.

That all falls on coaching. It is the coaches job to have the team prepared to execute the plays that are called, or to know that he shouldn't call certain plays because the team is not prepared. If it is a personnel problem, that still falls on the coach to design and call plays that fit with the talent he has.

Once again, I'm not saying that I don't think Zorn can get it done; I just haven't seen anything to date to show me that he can handle adversity, control a locker room, and/or assess and build to the weaknesses and strengths of his team.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Unless Dan is indeed the buffoon some people think, he will grade Zorn based on how well he has played the cards that were dealt him. The scheme is sound, if the Campbell project fails, they wil try to find a QB who CAN run Zorn's scheme.

From my chair, Jason is much improved over the QB Zorn inherited.

while i disagree JC is "much improved" i do think zorn has a good scheme and id like to see another QB or two attempt to run it. i just worry theyre gonna pull the plug on zorn and just start fresh again.

its such a shame to waste this defense with our offense. if we could muster a top 15 offense we'd be 10-6 easy with this defense.

[Skinsinparadise]

You list factors which, taken as a whole, are:

-- relatively unimportant

-- in some cases vague and impossible to measure

-- in most cases, they are factors which Zorn will improve with experience

When your focus on your list, you fail to focus on the most important factors:

-- is the scheme sound?

-- does the scheme get the best result from the talent on board?

We debated this point before so I went get into much here but the bottom line is Jim Zorn isn't the only West Coach ball control driven coach in the NFL, and if that was the be all and end all, the story is over with this, why have other WCO coaches had losing seasons and been fired?

I'd be with you if Zorn was indeed the one and only WCO coach in the NFL but far from it. So i don't see him being some precious commodity. Plenty of WCO guys out there who actually have a history of running a WCO offense versus Zorn who last year was a rookie play caller in the NFL.

There are things I like about Zorn, but for me at least I need the season to play out, and I don't give him a complete pass. I do think he has a raw deal with this O line, so I do think that needs to be factored in the evaluation, as for Campbell I really don't know, but if he ends up part of the problem that needs to be factored as well.

IMO it doesn't live and die with Zorn but I do think he has to be part of the evaluation.

[Oldfan]

... even the most novice of fans watching the game can see that many plays, most at the end of the season, were not working or at least were not plays that the team was prepared to execute.

When a play doesn't work, the fault can be the play calling or the execution. Sometimes, good calls fail. Sometimes bad calls succeed.

That all falls on coaching. It is the coaches job to have the team prepared to execute the plays that are called, or to know that he shouldn't call certain plays because the team is not prepared. If it is a personnel problem, that still falls on the coach to design and call plays that fit with the talent he has.

You are REALLY over-simplifying. Often, when the opponent's defense has superior talent, there's not a damn thing a coach can do to call plays that will work.

Jim Zorn ran vanilla WCO in 2008 and his players struggled to execute it. I'm not sure why so many fans are surprised by that. It's a difficult scheme to learn, some key players didn't fit, injuries struck at our weakest point, the OT position -- but Zorn was supposed to find a way to make his offense proficient anyway?

[Oldfan]

I'd be with you if Zorn was indeed the one and only WCO coach in the NFL but far from it. So i don't see him being some precious commodity. Plenty of WCO guys out there who actually have a history of running a WCO offense versus Zorn who last year was a rookie play caller in the NFL.

The WCO coaches with experience are proven mediocrities. Shanahan is the only one with a winning record, but his approach requires a rare, super-talented QB like Cutler or Elway to win games. Zorn's Walsh-like approach will win with less athletically gifted guys like Montana.

[WhoRUSupposed2Be]

What makes you think that he isn't?!

[That Redskins Fan]

do i trust Zorn no way Jose

But i am trying and i am really trying to temper myself when it comes to him, but in my heart I do believe he is over his head as a head coach and why he does not have oc is beyond me

[Oldfan]

do i trust Zorn no way Jose

But i am trying and i am really trying to temper myself when it comes to him, but in my heart I do believe he is over his head as a head coach and why he does not have oc is beyond me

Sherman Smith is the OC. Chris Meidt works with Sherman to prepare the game plans.

[That Redskins Fan]

Sherman Smith is the OC. Chris Meidt works with Sherman to prepare the game plans.

oc in name only i believe Zorn still calls the plays I could be mistake and if sherman smith is really the oc he needs to have his feet put the fire period...

[Taylor 36]

What makes you think that he isn't?!

That who isn't what?

[monkeezgob]

I just hope he's learned from last year. Once teams figured out his playbook and his tendencies we just evaporated last season; the entire second half of the season just fell away. What was worrying was that he looked unable to respond. It felt like we never prepared for the possibility that teams would figure us out. Once they did, he no plan B and couldn't improvise. To complicate matters more, he has a starting qb that he's not convinced by and I think this also impacts on his play calling.

He's taken a great deal on his shoulders (too much in my opinion) in trying to be a qb coach, a head coach and an offensive co-ordinator all at the same time. He just looks overwhlemed and lost in games. He needs to delegate more and focus on playcalling (if that's what he wants to do), but it really wouldn't suprise me if this season plays out much the same as last. We get off to a good start, teams figure us out, he can't respond and we end up 8-8 or 7-9.

[Braxford]

No. Until I see an offense that runs plays to the strengths of their players, like putting Campbell in the shotgun more often and actually calling pass plays beyond ten yards, then no.

[RandyHolt]

Zorn is banging his head on the wall trying to convert Jason into his former self. Nothing against Zorn, but why did we bring in a guy to run a team, who was not even in charge of an offense before? If he fails, look no further than him having no experience and blame the front office.

Jason has all the tools folks, Zorn just likes to use his tools instead. And he needs to start expanding his tool box and become MUCH less predictable. Like going basic vanilla in preseason to hide the fact we are going to go deep a few times a game. I say, go deep early and often ALL preseason. Teams will be on the lookout for it, it will open up all the short crap he really wants to throw. Then, once they adjust to that, THEN its much easier to go deep.

Watch what NE does in preseason folks, you can run your offense, show it, practice it, and teams still cant stop it. Why cant we do that? Answer is, we can, we just dont. Show it, go hurry up go deep go shotgun. Make teams adjust. Adjust Zorn or you will be gone before Jason.

[Taylor 36]

Like going basic vanilla in preseason to hide the fact we are going to go deep a few times a game. I say, go deep early and often ALL preseason. Teams will be on the lookout for it, it will open up all the short crap he really wants to throw. Then, once they adjust to that, THEN its much easier to go deep.

Watch what NE does in preseason folks, you can run your offense, show it, practice it, and teams still cant stop it. Why cant we do that? Answer is, we can, we just dont. Show it, go hurry up go deep go shotgun. Make teams adjust. Adjust Zorn or you will be gone before Jason.

What have we ever done to make you feel confident that we can run our offense, show it, practice it, and teams still cant stop it. I haven't even seen that we can consitantly run our offense, never mind the rest.

[Oldfan]

What have we ever done to make you feel confident that we can run our offense, show it, practice it, and teams still cant stop it. I haven't even seen that we can consitantly run our offense, never mind the rest.

Don't know about you, but I didn't expect to see a consistently effective offense in 2008. Consequently, I'm not bothered that it didn't happen.

I saw some good stuff in the first half when the O line was healthy even with a group of receivers who didn't fit the scheme.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

remember when al saunders offense in the preseason was so vanilla and we were just hiding all the secret awesome plays? LOL