Trust in Zorn?

[Taylor 36]

So far, I trust in Zorn.

I for one don't want to see another merry-go-round and rebuild, rebuild, rebuild mentality. Winning takes a plan and takes time. I believe Zorn has a plan and now he needs the time.

Hail!

I understand the need and want to have consistency. However, if that means constantly being average at best, I don't think that is the way to go.

I'm not saying Zorn can't get the job done. I started this thread because I have so many questions about Zorn, yet there seem to be people that have faith in him or trust his method, and I want to know what anyone has seen that makes them have faith or even overwhelming optimism in Zorn. For the most part, that question has gone unanswered in this thread.

[Backpack3r]

Actually, it is. You should read the forum rules before you get banned for something "not that serious."

Yeah but he keeps calling people out for it like he is a moderator or a little kid. Not a serious issue, someone wants to cuss, ignore it and post about the Skins.

[Thinking Skins]

I understand the need and want to have consistency. However, if that means constantly being average at best, I don't think that is the way to go.

I'm not saying Zorn can't get the job done. I started this thread because I have so many questions about Zorn, yet there seem to be people that have faith in him or trust his method, and I want to know what anyone has seen that makes them have faith or even overwhelming optimism in Zorn. For the most part, that question has gone unanswered in this thread.

This is something else that I think comes into play here in DC. Somebody else had a quote on ES where they said that it generally takes 3 years to get an offense installed and the Redskins go through coordinators every other year. That leads to part of the chaos we've had over the past 10 years.

I kinda wouldn't mind being average for 3-5 years if it means giving a guy a legit shot and not firing him just because he didn't take us to the super bowl immediately.

[indyskins]

I don't trust or belive in Zorn one bit. Is he a nice guy? Absolutely, he is a very nice guy and I am sure has a pretty good football mind. Is he ready to be head coach of a football team, install an offense AND call all the plays? Uh, no.

Answer me this - if we fired him tomorrow, how many teams would be clamoring to pick him up as their head coach?

[Thinking Skins]

Answer me this - if we fired him tomorrow, how many teams would be clamoring to pick him up as their head coach?

Why does THAT matter?

How many teams were itching to hire Bellicheck after he was fired by the Browns? How many teams would love to have him now?

How many teams were itching to hire Jason Garred 2 years ago? How many teams want him now?

What you're saying is comparable to something like just because Brady is a 6th round pick (ala just about nobody wanted him), he's not gonna be a good QB. Well we've seen how untrue that is, and so we can see how untrue your statement is. We've hired the hot guy on the block at least 4 times now

- Norv Turner

- Marty

- Spurrier

- Gibbs II

And none of them took us to the promise land. Why not give Zorn a chance?

[indyskins]

Why does THAT matter?

How many teams were itching to hire Bellicheck after he was fired by the Browns? How many teams would love to have him now?

How many teams were itching to hire Jason Garred 2 years ago? How many teams want him now?

What you're saying is comparable to something like just because Brady is a 6th round pick (ala just about nobody wanted him), he's not gonna be a good QB. Well we've seen how untrue that is, and so we can see how untrue your statement is. We've hired the hot guy on the block at least 4 times now

- Norv Turner

- Marty

- Spurrier

- Gibbs II

And none of them took us to the promise land. Why not give Zorn a chance?

I would guess to say that Norv, Marty and Gibbs would be welcome back over Zorn.

And I don't think Jason Garrett is a head coach but you prove my point exactly - he is an Offensive Coordinator who has proven he has run one side of the ball well and actually been in charge of something that has had success and therefore is a viable coaching candidate. I think Zorn's best credentials so far are he created a shade/misting station and he has a drill where he throws blocking pads at quarterbacks.

But you raise a good point about the coaching trail, it likely points to a larger underlying problem common under all those regimes - the owner.

[Oldfan]

I'm not saying Zorn can't get the job done. I started this thread because I have so many questions about Zorn, yet there seem to be people that have faith in him or trust his method, and I want to know what anyone has seen that makes them have faith or even overwhelming optimism in Zorn. For the most part, that question has gone unanswered in this thread.

I think what you mean is that the question has gone unanswered to your satisfaction -- which makes it a curveball question.

Here's my answer again. Why isn't it good enough for you?....

Unlike most fans, I concentrate on what I feel is the most important factor in evaluating a head coach -- his basic strategy for the offense and defense.

Gibbs had a sound one in his glory years, but when he tried the same approach in his second tour, it bombed. The game had moved on.

Jim Zorn has a sound basic strategy for today's game, a ball control team with emphasis on the passing game. And, he seems to realize that he has to get Greg Blache on the same page with an aggressive defensive strategy that makes it difficult for the opponent to control the ball with emphasis on their passing game.

[Taylor 36]

I think what you mean is that the question has gone unanswered to your satisfaction -- which makes it a curveball question.

Here's my answer again. Why isn't it good enough for you?....

Unlike most fans, I concentrate on what I feel is the most important factor in evaluating a head coach -- his basic strategy for the offense and defense.

Gibbs had a sound one in his glory years, but when he tried the same approach in his second tour, it bombed. The game had moved on.

Jim Zorn has a sound basic strategy for today's game, a ball control team with emphasis on the passing game. And, he seems to realize that he has to get Greg Blache on the same page with an aggressive defensive strategy that makes it difficult for the opponent to control the ball with emphasis on their passing game.

It's not a curve ball question. You gave a loaded answer.

You say he has a sound basic strategy, but how has he shown that? That was my question: What has he done to SHOW that despite his resume, he is a guy we can trust?

So, what has he done to show you his sound strategy, or are you taking that under the assumption that he is using a WC style of offense, so it must be sound? And, if his emphasis is on the passing game, as you suggest, and he has such a sound strategy, than why was the passing game the weakest part of our offense last year, and one of the biggest questions going into this season?

[Thinking Skins]

I would guess to say that Norv, Marty and Gibbs would be welcome back over Zorn.

I doubt ANY Skins fan would want Norv anywhere near this team again!

And I don't think Jason Garrett is a head coach but you prove my point exactly - he is an Offensive Coordinator who has proven he has run one side of the ball well and actually been in charge of something that has had success and therefore is a viable coaching candidate. I think Zorn's best credentials so far are he created a shade/misting station and he has a drill where he throws blocking pads at quarterbacks.

Last year he was a hot commodity, and got two offers to be a head coach. But then he looked like a dufis last year in Dallas as they crumbled to T.O.'s whining and Romo sits to pee's lack of leadership and they all blamed Garrett. Suddenly he's not so high on people's list.

But you raise a good point about the coaching trail, it likely points to a larger underlying problem common under all those regimes - the owner.

It also points to a larger problem here in DC, the fans. We're always wanting the new guy, never satisfied with what we have. I'm not saying that we should be satisfied with being mediocre, but we need to learn to build. I'm talking about building through the draft, building an organization, building chemistry, all that stuff. We're so used to being the quick fix team that we've forgotten what its like to do these things.

Do I think Zorn should get the Norv treatment and last 7 years through collapse after collapse? Heck nah? But I think he should get better than the Marty treatment or the 2 years and out treatment. I figure if he looks decent this year, he should get at least one more year. If after 3 years he hasn't done much, then I'd be more willing to say "he's not the guy". I'd feel like we at least gave him a chance.

[SoulRebel]

I have no clue why i trust Zorn, I just see something special about him that he will be a great HC one day, either this season or next. He just has an aura that he is destined for great, or should I say Super, things.

[Aireskoi]

So far, I trust in Zorn.

It takes time to pull all of the pieces together and this year will be telling for sure. He gets a pass from me his first year. This year he needs to step up. Barring a complete collapse, I think he deserves to be back next year too. If the WCO takes up to three years to master and the players have at least two years to work in it, and things start to come together, then we'll know he is our guy. I agree with other posters that he needs to adapt on the fly and be creative where possible.

A lot of factors went into last season's collapse. Getting bloodied by the Steelers was just awful and what happened beyond that just made me sick but we need to give this guy a chance.

I for one don't want to see another merry-go-round and rebuild, rebuild, rebuild mentality. Winning takes a plan and takes time. I believe Zorn has a plan and now he needs the time.

Hail!

We're pretty much on the same page. Nice post.

The passing game should be our weakest area, it will take some time for the offense to master the concepts. It'll also take time for the front office to completely retool the roster with the right players to fit Zorn's system.

I think the Z-man took a look around when he got hired and made the best of what he had. He did a great job, but the passing game struggled once teams had some film on what Zorn was trying to do. The passing game was so limited it couldn't adjust, and the strengths of our team weren't really so strong that they could overcome it. Our D was solid, but not legendary. We couldn't take the ball or get sacks. The running game couldn't get the tough yards and eat up clock when teams knew we were trying to.

Mastering the passing game is the key to making the whole offense click. He's trying to build an offense so it can compete with the best defenses in the NFL, and it should take some time.

We knew that though, didn't we?

[turbodiesel#44]

Trust? Not yet. But I haven't given up on him either. Hard to say what any coach could do with the talent picked by this FO.

[Oldfan]

It's not a curve ball question. You gave a loaded answer.

A loaded answer?

You say he has a sound basic strategy, but how has he shown that?

Zorn showed us vanilla WCO, which is a ball control offense. He has told us that he wants a 60/40 pass/run ratio which is consistent with the Walsh/Holmgren strategy. On the defensive side, he wasn't satisfied with the passive approach of 2008. He wants Blache's unit to produce more sacks, turnovers and short-field advantages. IMO that's a sound approach in today's game.

...than why was the passing game the weakest part of our offense last year, and one of the biggest questions going into this season?

You didn't know that the passing game was not likely to come out of the box flying last season? We haven't has a consistently efficient passing game since Norv left, but you figured Zorn should have been able to do it in his first season with the misfit troops he inherited and a QB whose mechanics had to be remodeled?

[Mr. Blitz]

I think if Zorn had shown a lot of promise in Seattle he would have been elevated to the OC job. Holmgren would have wanted to keep him on their staff. He gets a pass for year one....BUT if this offense shows no improvement...he has to go. I know it sounds like the same old wheel 'em in...wheel 'em out. This time the GM must be replaced first and then bring in a solid head coach who can get the job done. That includes Danny staying in the box and off the field and out of the football business! Wishful thinking... I know.

[Oldfan]

I think if Zorn had shown a lot of promise in Seattle he would have been elevated to the OC job. Holmgren would have wanted to keep him on their staff. He gets a pass for year one....BUT if this offense shows no improvement...he has to go. I know it sounds like the same old wheel 'em in...wheel 'em out.

You're right. It sounds like the same old wheel'em in, wheel 'em out. If the offense shows no improvement, we should want to know why. If the fault is traced to lack of talent and injuries on the O line, that should make a difference, for example.

This time the GM must be replaced first and then bring in a solid head coach who can get the job done.

Replace Vinny? With who? Since he took over after Joe left, Vinny has done very well, in my opinion. It's too early to know for sure , but his 2008 draft is looking so far like the best haul since 1981.

Bring in a solid head coach? That's a good plan. Of those available right now, who would you pick?

[Thinking Skins]

I think if Zorn had shown a lot of promise in Seattle he would have been elevated to the OC job. Holmgren would have wanted to keep him on their staff.

You've got to understand that there are only 32 jobs for OCs and 32 jobs for HCs. Many people are passed over for the promotions. Many others are highly touted as the great hype, and wind up being extremely disappointing. I'm kinda sad that you think we should manage our team based on who other teams like. Just because Seattle may have been stupid not to promote him to OC or HC doesn't mean that we shouldn't give the guy an opportunity.

Oh, and Holmgren did want to keep him on staff.

[Thinking Skins]

It's too early to know for sure , but his 2008 draft is looking so far like the best haul since 1981.

Woah, lets not get overboard here. Right now the 2008 class hasn't brought us one pro bowler. So I wouldn't even put it above the 2004 class that brought us Cooley and Taylor. And based on playing time, I wouldn't even put it above the 2006 class that brought us Rocky, Montgomery and Golston. Given, those are both Vinny drafts, but lets not go overboard with the 2008 draft class just yet. They have promise, but we don't know if we've got another Darnerian McCants, Michael Westbrook, or Larry Fitzgerald just yet, and lets not get too hype about promise.

[Wyvern]

I've got a lot of confidence in Zorn's ability as a Head Coach. I think he's been groomed for a while now and tutored by some very good Head Coaches. I don't think Zorn did that badly in his first season as HC.

Considering the situation Zorn inherited I think he's done fairly well. The personnel he inherited weren't a great fit for the system he was asked to implement. He inherited holdover elements of the Gibbs running game on which he was to graft a WCO. He was asked to implement the running game with an aging and injury-prone line, and a QB who hasn't made defenses fear his passing. The receiving corps was new to the WCO, and in some cases to the NFL. Most importantly, Snyder has not publically thrown all his support behind Zorn; something that enabled the kind of public media second-guessing that undermined Zorn's ability to truly manage his players.

Those who attack Zorn's play calls should understand that it was linked to the capabilities of his team; when the line could support the run and give Campbell the time he needed to find an open receiver -- we did well. When it didn't, Zorn's plays were less effective.

I think it is also valid to note that Campbell and the receiving corps weren't able to adequately execute much beyond the simple 'vanilla' plays --especially towards the end of the season, when the line protection was not as effective. I recall some players were already complaining about the complexities of the responsibilities; so why try to make things more complicated? Regardless, Zorn's options were limited, especially as the season wore on, and the line wore down.

In my opinion, Zorn is an astute coach and understands where he needs to improve the teams performance. I've found his comments and analysis generally to be accurate and on target. Zorn's flaw is being too candid with the media. Zorn was a rookie head-coach, I think he's learning that HC's don't have to be teachers to the public. I don't think traits like cerebral, innovative, or 'zen-like' make a coach a bad coach -- ultimately, the test of a successful coach is how his players perform. Zorn needs a chance to complete his work, before we decide whether it was good or not.

So Snyder needs to stand by Zorn -- committing to him for at least the next couple of years. Not only will this enable Zorn to more authoritatively manage the players and coaches, it reduces those public incidents that disrupt team chemistry. And if the FO supports Zorn, I'm confident that by year three, Zorn will have his version of the WCO installed, with the right players and coaches to implement the offense, as well as a top-notch defense.

[BIGOLEBOB]

Woah, lets not get overboard here. Right now the 2008 class hasn't brought us one pro bowler. So I wouldn't even put it above the 2004 class that brought us Cooley and Taylor. And based on playing time, I wouldn't even put it above the 2006 class that brought us Rocky, Montgomery and Golston. Given, those are both Vinny drafts, but lets not go overboard with the 2008 draft class just yet. They have promise, but we don't know if we've got another Darnerian McCants, Michael Westbrook, or Larry Fitzgerald just yet, and lets not get too hype about promise.

the 2006 draft was nothing special. when one of those guys makes the pro bowl let me know. How many people do we have that were drafted that are pro bowl and end up in Hawaii? Just 2 Cooley and Samuels and Chris is about to retire, (I think Marty drafted Samuels)

Within the last 8 years how many guys has Vinnie drafted who are on the team now and have made the pro bowl The answer is ONE. (taylors dead)

Isn't the real problem management and not knowing how to evaluate quality players. Has the measure of a successfull draft REALLY come to the point that we consider it successful if they just stick around and make the team? Maybe thats why the Giants are kicking our butts with Tuck, and OSI, Manning, and that Pro Bowl offensive line that they drafted.

[leesburgvaskinsfan]

We're pretty much on the same page. Nice post.

The passing game should be our weakest area, it will take some time for the offense to master the concepts. It'll also take time for the front office to completely retool the roster with the right players to fit Zorn's system.

I think the Z-man took a look around when he got hired and made the best of what he had. He did a great job, but the passing game struggled once teams had some film on what Zorn was trying to do. The passing game was so limited it couldn't adjust, and the strengths of our team weren't really so strong that they could overcome it. Our D was solid, but not legendary. We couldn't take the ball or get sacks. The running game couldn't get the tough yards and eat up clock when teams knew we were trying to.Mastering the passing game is the key to making the whole offense click. He's trying to build an offense so it can compete with the best defenses in the NFL, and it should take some time.

We knew that though, didn't we?

Thanks for your comments! You and I are on the same page. Any complex task takes time and a lot of effort to get it right. Keep the faith!

Hail!

[leesburgvaskinsfan]

I've got a lot of confidence in Zorn's ability as a Head Coach. I think he's been groomed for a while now and tutored by some very good Head Coaches. I don't think Zorn did that badly in his first season as HC.

Considering the situation Zorn inherited I think he's done fairly well. The personnel he inherited weren't a great fit for the system he was asked to implement. He inherited holdover elements of the Gibbs running game on which he was to graft a WCO. He was asked to implement the running game with an aging and injury-prone line, and a QB who hasn't made defenses fear his passing. The receiving corps was new to the WCO, and in some cases to the NFL. Most importantly, Snyder has not publically thrown all his support behind Zorn; something that enabled the kind of public media second-guessing that undermined Zorn's ability to truly manage his players.

Those who attack Zorn's play calls should understand that it was linked to the capabilities of his team; when the line could support the run and give Campbell the time he needed to find an open receiver -- we did well. When it didn't, Zorn's plays were less effective.

I think it is also valid to note that Campbell and the receiving corps weren't able to adequately execute much beyond the simple 'vanilla' plays --especially towards the end of the season, when the line protection was not as effective. I recall some players were already complaining about the complexities of the responsibilities; so why try to make things more complicated? Regardless, Zorn's options were limited, especially as the season wore on, and the line wore down.

In my opinion, Zorn is an astute coach and understands where he needs to improve the teams performance. I've found his comments and analysis generally to be accurate and on target. Zorn's flaw is being too candid with the media. Zorn was a rookie head-coach, I think he's learning that HC's don't have to be teachers to the public. I don't think traits like cerebral, innovative, or 'zen-like' make a coach a bad coach -- ultimately, the test of a successful coach is how his players perform. Zorn needs a chance to complete his work, before we decide whether it was good or not.

So Snyder needs to stand by Zorn -- committing to him for at least the next couple of years. Not only will this enable Zorn to more authoritatively manage the players and coaches, it reduces those public incidents that disrupt team chemistry. And if the FO supports Zorn, I'm confident that by year three, Zorn will have his version of the WCO installed, with the right players and coaches to implement the offense, as well as a top-notch defense.

Another nice post imho.

These "off with your head, Zorn's gotta go posts" just crack me up. Time, patience, mixing the new talent with the current vets, game planning, timing, learning what works, learning what doesn't work, getting your rhythm, practice, practice, practice.

I believe Zorn is smart enough to nail this thing if given the chance. He needs time to pull it together.

Hail!