Old Bay Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 I thought of that analogy. Although Super Bowls only happen once a year. But if it were a weekly meeting of the local chapter of Skins Fans, then is it illegal? If I chose to have 15-20 people (observing that the claim of 15 people came from the lawyer) over to my house, every Sunday for the entire season, so everybody can watch the Skins game on my Sunday Ticket and Big Screen, do I need a permit? Assuming that this whole thing is legit, I think that's a valid question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 The Evil Commies are hauling people off to Gitmo for Possession of Bibles. It all makes sense now Barrack Hussein Obama, the closet Muslim, moves the terrorists to the bible belt where they can escape from their country-club minimum security detention, and harass the good Christians. Any Christians who complain or try to practice their religion will be sent to the now available spaces at Gitmo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Assuming that this whole thing is legit, I think that's a valid question. Many communities have regulations about parking and traffic in residential areas in order to protect the quality of life there. Whether you can park commercial vehicles, boats, RVs etc. or even how many vehicles. If Larry has a large property with off-road parking and his visitors don't unreasonable inconvenience the neighbors with the extra traffic, I wouldn't think he'd need a permit. But if you regularly have visitors clogging up the streets in a residential neighborhood, you are affecting quality of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Possible theory: The county law says that football-watching parties are allowed in property zoned "residential", but churches are not. This might explain the questions asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dockeryfan Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Possible theory: The county law says that football-watching parties are allowed in property zoned "residential", but churches are not. This might explain the questions asked. How does having people over for private study make you a church? Do you get to benefit from non-profit status? I don't think having people over to your house, for any intent, makes you an organization. It's just a group of individuals. Even if they were members of a specific congregation, going over church business, that would not make them a church. It's still a residential dwelling. They weren't even doing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 How does having people over for private study make you a church? Do you get to benefit from non-profit status? I don't think having people over to your house, for any intent, makes you an organization. It's just a group of individuals. Even if they were members of a specific congregation, going over church business, that would not make them a church. It's still a residential dwelling. They weren't even doing that. So it'd be OK if I had 30 friends over, every day Monday thru Saturday, every one of which brings over one or more dogs (and 70 bucks), which I bathe and groom, and the owners then return to my house and pick up? After all, it's just a group of individuals. If several of my friends, who contacted me through my Yellow Pages ad, happen to have their non-functional cars towed to my house, where I repair them (for a fee), that's OK, too, right? It's just a group of individuals. Just because I'm performing a professional service, in exchange for payment, doesn't make me a business, or anything. Just like holding regularly-scheduled religious services doesn't make something a church. Clearly there's an obvious difference, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dockeryfan Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 So it'd be OK if I had 30 friends over, every day Monday thru Saturday, every one of which brings over one or more dogs (and 70 bucks), which I bathe and groom, and the owners then return to my house and pick up? After all, it's just a group of individuals. If several of my friends, who contacted me through my Yellow Pages ad, happen to have their non-functional cars towed to my house, where I repair them (for a fee), that's OK, too, right? It's just a group of individuals. Just because I'm performing a professional service, in exchange for payment, doesn't make me a business, or anything. Just like holding regularly-scheduled religious services doesn't make something a church. Clearly there's an obvious difference, huh? Just because I'm performing a professional service, in exchange for payment, doesn't make me a business, or anything. In all the cases you brought up, money is exchanging hands for services. I quoted that last part because if you are performing a professional service, you actually are a business. You may not be incorporated, but you absolutely have to claim the income. According to the IRS. How is that the same as having people over? It's more akin to having people over for a party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heisenberg Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Still waiting on those "facts" . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dockeryfan Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Still waiting on those "facts" . . . Yeah, this may just be a lawyer with an agenda... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 In all the cases you brought up, money is exchanging hands for services. I quoted that last part because if you are performing a professional service, you actually are a business. You may not be incorporated, but you absolutely have to claim the income. According to the IRS.How is that the same as having people over? It's more akin to having people over for a party. Congratulations. You have now proven that a church is not a business. What you have not done, is proven that a church is not a church. It can be tough deciding exactly where the dividing line is that makes something subject to zoning. To pick one of my previous examples, the difference between having some friends over to my place to watch the Skins on the big screen over some drinks, and a sports bar, is . . . Well, it at least can be hard to define. Especially if I'm intentionally trying to make it hard to define. (For example, I'd assert that one difference between me repairing a friend's car, for which he gratefully slips me some cash as a way of saying "Thank You", and me running an auto repair shop out of my home, is how many customers I have, and how I met them. If every one of them is somebody who I work with on the Fire Department, then they're likely friends. If they found me in the Yellow Pages, then I'm a business.) My theory is that perhaps this county has chosen to draw the line which defines what is or isn't a church (and therefore subject to zoning) at "holds regularly scheduled religious services". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dockeryfan Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Congratulations. You have now proven that a church is not a business. Yes it is, Larry. Churches take donations, they perform services for the community, are afforded non-profit status, etc. A church is definitely a type of business. What you have not done, is proven that a church is not a church. I don't think this is correct at all. The burden is on the county to claim that the gathering is a church, not the other way around. And this goes for every regularly scheduled gathering. Movie night. Poker night. Sunday Night Baseball. What about other faiths, such as Wiccans celebrating Valpurgis Night at someone's house? They get together at people's homes all the time. My theory is that perhaps this county has chosen to draw the line which defines what is or isn't a church (and therefore subject to zoning) at "holds regularly scheduled religious services".Well if that's the case then they would be wrong in doing so. A gathering of minds for book club does not make them members of some cult of libri, subject to church zoning. Neither would bible study. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 The burden is on the county to claim that the gathering is a church, not the other way around. You are absolutely right. If the county shows that, then this employee will not get in trouble and this church will have to comply with zoning laws. If the county fails to show that, this bible study group will be off the hook. The way the original news story is written (and the way it is being presented all over the internet), you would think that this had already been resolved, it is just a bible study group, and the county is trying to oppress religion. Because we all know that San Diego county government hates religion. Or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dockeryfan Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 You are absolutely right. If the county shows that, then this employee will not get in trouble and this church will have to comply with zoning laws. If the county fails to show that, this bible study group will be off the hook.The way the original news story is written (and the way it is being presented all over the internet), you would think that this had already been resolved, it is just a bible study group, and the county is trying to oppress religion. Because we all know that San Diego county government hates religion. Or something. We don't know the back story, and I don't know about San Diego government hating religion or any such thing. That was just media spin, which was easy to see. We do know that they received a written warning that listed "unlawful use of land" and told them to "stop religious assembly or apply for a major use permit". Any written warning from the government telling a group to stop religious assembly in their private home is going to get people up in arms. Rightly so, in my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 We don't know the back story, and I don't know about San Diego government hating religion or any such thing. That was just media spin, which was easy to see. We do know that they received a written warning that listed "unlawful use of land" and told them to "stop religious assembly or apply for a major use permit". Any written warning from the government telling a group to stop religious assembly in their private home is going to get people up in arms. Rightly so, in my mind. Even if it's the exact same form letter used for every other person who the county thinks is violating the zoning laws? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dockeryfan Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Even if it's the exact same form letter used for every other person who the county thinks is violating the zoning laws? Now you're just making things up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Now you're just making things up. Not really. When you appear to be violating zoning laws, the county sends you a notice demanding that you either stop the activity or apply for a use permit. That's what the letter here says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dockeryfan Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Not really.When you appear to be violating zoning laws, the county sends you a notice demanding that you either stop the activity or apply for a use permit. That's what the letter here says. I never saw the letter, so without actually reading it, I thought it was pure speculation. Are there different letters stating the different zoning violations? Is there one for a commercial violation, one for churches, etc? It would seem to me that they would tell you what specific zoning law you are violating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 I never saw the letter, so without actually reading it, I thought it was pure speculation. Are there different letters stating the different zoning violations? Is there one for a commercial violation, one for churches, etc? It would seem to me that they would tell you what specific zoning law you are violating. Or maybe they have a word processing document that says "Immediately cease and desist (insert description of activity here) or . . . " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dockeryfan Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Or maybe they have a word processing document that says "Immediately cease and desist (insert description of activity here) or . . . " If they're specifying church related activity and it is a private dwelling, it really doesn't matter if it's a form letter. If every single zoning violation requires the same form, you would have a point. The point being the employee followed up on a zoning violation, treated it like any other zoning violation and sent "the form". But I doubt that's the case, and it certainly isn't my area of expertise. If it went down the way the article implies, I'm sure San Diego County government is embarrassed. Or they should be, anyway. It's overstepping their bounds, and intruding themselves into people's kitchens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 You know this officer deserves a commendation and a raise. He is one of the few people that understand that religion and education do not mix. Bible study... pfah! For centuries the Church worked very hard to make sure its followers were illiterate. They understood. And in America there needs to be a separation between education and religion too. These religious fanatics keeping trying to blur that line, bring religion into places it doesn't belong... like the courtroom, the school, the home. I think this policeman deserves a hearty round of :applause: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 If every single zoning violation requires the same form, you would have a point. The point being the employee followed up on a zoning violation, treated it like any other zoning violation and sent "the form". But I doubt that's the case, and it certainly isn't my area of expertise. I guess I don't understand why you doubt that this is the case. "Broyles said a few days later the couple received a written warning that listed "unlawful use of land" and told them to "stop religious assembly or apply for a major use permit"" That sounds exactly like a zoning form letter to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardi gras skin Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 "Broyles said a few days later the couple received a written warning that listed "unlawful use of land" and told them to "stop religious assembly or apply for a major use permit""That sounds exactly like a zoning form letter to me. I'm confused. Does this imply that any group of 15 friends meeting together regularly in a home has to apply to the state for a major use permit? Or do you just need a permit to talk about God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seabee1973 Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 There's a house that holds a bible study in front of me. These people always want to park in front of my house. If my driveway is full where do I park? I can see how it would be annoying to neighbors. They shouldnt be parking in your driveway to begin with unless they asked permission first. In front of the house on the street is fair game though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 I'm confused. Does this imply that any group of 15 friends meeting together regularly in a home has to apply to the state for a major use permit? Or do you just need a permit to talk about God? Absolutely not the latter, and no one is claiming that. I suspect that the county inspector didnt believe this guy when he said it was just a few people meeting once a week to talk about the Bible. He probably had complaints from the neighbors about parking and traffic, and decided that this guy was setting up a full fledged church in a residential neighborhood, something that requires a use permit. The county employee may or may not be right in his assessment of the situation. In fact, given the outcry he's probably wrong. I'm willing to accept that. But I guarantee you this: despite what Mickalino thinks, the county chose to go after this guy because of a concern about residential zoning, not because the county wants to shut down religion. I am sure of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardi gras skin Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 He probably had complaints from the neighbors about parking and traffic, and decided that this guy was setting up a full fledged church in a residential neighborhood, something that requires a use permit. This is going to get tricky going forward because there are quite a few of us that believe 15 people getting together regularly can be a full fledged church. I planted a couple churches around Baltimore the old fashioned way. 501c3, non-profit, board of directors, yadda yadda. But the next few we start probably won't be non-profit institutions. Small, home based gatherings of friends that network with other house churches is a much easier way to go. And there's a simple way to avoid messes like this anyway. I mow my neighbors' grass, shovel their sidewalks, and stay out of their parking spaces. They're too afraid of messing up a good thing to call the cops on me because the curbs are crowded a few nights a month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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