My good friend was killed by an elderly driver yesterday afternoon(UPDATE!!!)

[Heisenberg]

Yeah, the whole not wearing a seatbelt combined with the fact he was driving a vehicle with the top down make this a difficult situation for me to fully blame the elderly man for the death.

It was obviously his fault that the accident occured but I have to believe that your friend would most likely be virtually unharmed if he had just worn a seatbelt.

I think you should also consider that the old man might have gone to sit on his porch because he was in shock and/or in no mental capacity to deal with what had just happened. I find it hard to believe he just caused an accident and thought it was no big deal. As far as not moving your friends body from the scene - that's not too surprising considering they realized he was gone at the scene (according to the article.)

Again, I'm not trying to be an ass but it would be wise to try to place the blame in other places than just on the elderly man. Who I'm 99% sure probably feels absolutely horrible about what happened.

[Dictator]

now would probably be a good time to stop pilling it on to the OP. I'm sure he knows his friend should have worn his seatbelt. He's probably trying to find a way to deal with it.

[Drop]

Yeah, the whole not wearing a seatbelt combined with the fact he was driving a vehicle with the top down make this a difficult situation for me to fully blame the elderly man for the death.

It was obviously his fault that the accident occured but I have to believe that your friend would most likely be virtually unharmed if he had just worn a seatbelt.

I think you should also consider that the old man might have gone to sit on his porch because he was in shock and/or in no mental capacity to deal with what had just happened. I find it hard to believe he just caused an accident and thought it was no big deal. As far as not moving your friends body from the scene - that's not too surprising considering they realized he was gone at the scene (according to the article.)

Again, I'm not trying to be an ass but it would be wise to try to place the blame in other places than just on the elderly man. Who I'm 99% sure probably feels absolutely horrible about what happened.

Yeah i agree with this. I believe the old man was probably in desperate need of a seat/catching his breath after he'd witnessed what he had just done. He's 88, remember this. Not only do 88 year olds not drive well....they don't deal well with shock or a lot of commotion either. Other than get out of the way and take a seat until medics arrived, i'm not sure the man could have done much else.

[Skins24]

You are not an ass. So far I have only seen proof that one person violated the law. The victim.

So an 88 year old man driving with visions problems, not paying attention and....WITHOUT A LICENSE is not a crime?

The accident caused the car to overturn. So even if he was wearing his seatbelt the accident would have likely injured him, probably severely.

[Drop]

The accident caused the car to overturn. So even if he was wearing his seatbelt the accident would have likely injured him, probably severely.

possibly true. But a severe injury isn't death.

[SolidSnake84]

Hey guys,

I dont feel like anybody is piling it on me for Josh not wearing a seat belt. Everybody is just stating the facts. I'm ok with that. I thought Dictator was poking fun because I misunderstood him, but everybody's cool now.

Josh was very experienced with Jeeps and driving off-road. You're right when you said that he should be wearing a seat belt. I can also so 99% that Josh would most likely be alive today if he had been.

But somebody said that Josh was the only person in violation of the law. Driving without a license seems to be clearly illegal. The State Police seen enough to be able to charge Charles Clevenger with Reckless driving, so they clearly saw it was his fault.

As this drags on, I'm sure more charges are to be filed. Also, if it indeed comes out that this Clevenger had no license, I imagine his family may sue. It won't bring Joshua back, but that's the world we live in, and at least his friends and family may have closure that the person who killed Josh was brought to justice....

So i'm cool guys...i don't feel like anybody is "blaming" Josh...

[Skins24]

possibly true. But a severe injury isn't death.

Death or injury, the point is the accident shouldn't have happened in the first place...

[Redd]

Death or injury, the point is the accident shouldn't have happened in the first place...

Sooo true. That's why you wear seatbelts for the unexpected.

[TimmySmith]

So an 88 year old man driving with visions problems, not paying attention and....WITHOUT A LICENSE is not a crime?

Really? Please link that information, because I have only read that in this thread. As for the rest of your post, we'll never really know, will we.

To me, the cautionary tale here is wear your seat belt.

[Skins24]

Sooo true. That's why you wear seatbelts for the unexpected.

Completely 100% agree.

[zoony]

I got behind a couple older than dirt today- driving 20 mph in a 50 mph zone on a one lane country road. Traffic was backed up probably 15 cars deep, and everyone was trying to pass them around blind corners, etc.

Some might look at that couple and have pity, but not me at all. If you do not feel comfortable driving the posted speed limit, you should have your license taken away. Period.

And at a bare minimum, I don't care how old you are- that's certainly no excuse to be completely oblivious to those around you. Pull your dam car over and let people pass :mad: Same is true of the old people in public who cut in line and act like the world around them doesn't exist. You're not fooling anyone- if you have the wherewithall to make it out to the local mall, you certainly are aware of those around you. And you're just using your age as an excuse to act like a jackass.

/rant.

....

[GoSkins561]

Hey guys,

I dont feel like anybody is piling it on me for Josh not wearing a seat belt. Everybody is just stating the facts. I'm ok with that. I thought Dictator was poking fun because I misunderstood him, but everybody's cool now.

Josh was very experienced with Jeeps and driving off-road. You're right when you said that he should be wearing a seat belt. I can also so 99% that Josh would most likely be alive today if he had been.

But somebody said that Josh was the only person in violation of the law. Driving without a license seems to be clearly illegal. The State Police seen enough to be able to charge Charles Clevenger with Reckless driving, so they clearly saw it was his fault.

As this drags on, I'm sure more charges are to be filed. Also, if it indeed comes out that this Clevenger had no license, I imagine his family may sue. It won't bring Joshua back, but that's the world we live in, and at least his friends and family may have closure that the person who killed Josh was brought to justice....

So i'm cool guys...i don't feel like anybody is "blaming" Josh...

Again I am not trying to pile on, you say Josh would have probably been alive if he was wearing a seatbelt and in the next sentence blaming the man for "killing" Josh. Just trying to help you see this rationally.

[Skins24]

Really? Please link that information, because I have only read that in this thread.

No link...and I can't prove people with knowledge of the situation are lying but the police have charged him with reckless driving. I'm sure there was a reason for that.

[SolidSnake84]

Again I am not trying to pile on, you say Josh would have probably been alive if he was wearing a seatbelt and in the next sentence blaming the man for "killing" Josh. Just trying to help you see this rationally.

Seatbelt or not, nothing would have prevented Charles Clevenger from making that abrupt turn, never noticing Josh coming in front of him.

The seatbelt may have saved Josh's life. Maybe not. It didn't, so when the old man struck him, he killed him, be it inadvertently. An old man's senseless judgement call cost Josh Doll his life, whether Josh was prepared or not.

That's my logic. I dont know how fast they were going, so i dont know if a seat belt would have even helped. As is with all major traffic accidents, there will be much debate and different theories. I haven't even been up to see the site yet, but my good friend (who lives closeby) tells me that there were a long set of skid mark's from Josh's vehicle. Maybe speed was a factor. Who knows.

We have begun the grieving process now. Thanks to everybody here on ES who gave kind words and encouragement instead of just proclaiming Clevenger's innocence or simply blaming Josh for not having his seat belt on.

[Dictator]

police have charged him with reckless driving. I'm sure there was a reason for that.

probably because he recklessly turned in front of another vehicle which had the right of way resulting in a horrible collision.

[TimmySmith]

No link...and I can't prove people with knowledge of the situation are lying but the police have charged him with reckless driving. I'm sure there was a reason for that.

I am not saying the old guy is not at fault. I really don't know. But he is human, and is capable of a mistake, now he has to live with the fact that he killed someone. And it possibly could have been avoided.

Reminds of a scenario that happened to someone I know. They were driving, under the influence, hit a car, and a child in that car died. The child had been sitting in the lap of the driver. Now we can talk all day about the dangers of drinking and driving, but how much culpability lies in the parent who would drive down the road with a kid in their lap?

[#98QBKiller]

Reminds of a scenario that happened to someone I know. They were driving, under the influence, hit a car, and a child in that car died. The child had been sitting in the lap of the driver. Now we can talk all day about the dangers of drinking and driving, but how much culpability lies in the parent who would drive down the road with a kid in their lap?

I'd say they're both at fault in that scenario.

[Skins24]

I am not saying the old guy is not at fault. I really don't know.

My only issue was with your statement

So far I have only seen proof that one person violated the law. The victim.

Which simply isn't true from what we know....

[Drop]

Death or injury, the point is the accident shouldn't have happened in the first place...

but it did. and you don't know when they're going to happen. so the point is, you wear your seatbelt to cover your own ass because you can't control what everyone else on the road is going to do.

i'm glad the OP is understanding of where we're coming from. I believe that this unfortunate event was not the cause of one person soley. I simply think you can't put the blame on the old man 100% when the other party wasn't wearing his seatbelt.

[bdiamond]

I'm not the best driver in the world, but I know what's going on around me and won't get anyone killed. I can't tell you how many times I'm driving and see others acting like idiots and just think to myself, "Time to turn it in!" We definitely need to have better restrictions in place as far as driving goes, but that applies to all ages.

[GoSkins561]

We have begun the grieving process now. Thanks to everybody here on ES who gave kind words and encouragement instead of just proclaiming Clevenger's innocence or simply blaming Josh for not having his seat belt on.

I know for a fact that all of us are sincere when we say we feel for you and the victims family. I think some of us are trying to stick up for the old man in a sense that it wasn't completely his fault and he didn't kill your friend on purpose. Even though he is 88 I am sure he is absolutely crushed. If I could give one word of advice because I know you angry, consider how the old man feels after taking your friends life in an accident if you ever see him in public and remembe he didn't do it on purpose. Again I am sorry about the loss of your friend, you, his family and the old man are in my prayers.

[kuraitengai]

I didn't wear one until I was about 25. I got tired of too many tickets.

I guess deterrents do work sometimes.

i didnt really wear one until i flipped a car on the way home from basketball practice jr year of hs. moron lady pulled out in front of me. tboned her on the back passenger wheel, flipped twice and landed on the roof. crushed the whole roof except above me. wasnt wearing a seat belt but still stayed in the seat while the car was upside down and spinning down the road. actually, didnt start wearing a seat belt til like 6 months or so later.

[SkinsNumberOne]

First - sorry for your loss, SS.

I know for a fact that all of us are sincere when we say we feel for you and the victims family. I think some of us are trying to stick up for the old man in a sense that it wasn't completely his fault and he didn't kill your friend on purpose. Even though he is 88 I am sure he is absolutely crushed. If I could give one word of advice because I know you angry, consider how the old man feels after taking your friends life in an accident if you ever see him in public and remembe he didn't do it on purpose. Again I am sorry about the loss of your friend, you, his family and the old man are in my prayers.

I agree that SS is posting emotionally, however -

If the old man showed remorse, I'm sure SS would be singing a different tune. Clearly that hasn't happened (as far as SS knows), or we wouldn't be hearing about him sitting on the porch after the whole thing happened.

Also, while he didn't have malicious intent, it's still true that his negligence was criminal (not necessary in the legal sense since I'm not a lawyer and that may not be the correct categorization legally). Could the victim have worn a seatbelt? Sure. Would wearing the seatbelt have prevented the poor driving of the other party?

No.

So that's where the problem is. Yes, the fact that this resulted in death MAY have been preventable, and is instructive on the importance of wearing seat belts, as has already been demonstrated repeatedly in this thread. But the fact that the driver in this case - with what we know to this point - was negligent and made a mistake that did result in a death is still the unchanging fact.

And again, as I said earlier, it seems SS has some conviction that the driver has shown little reaction to this point, which - whether that conviction is right or wrong - is obviously also feeding the negative emotions here.

So it may be good to take a deep breath and try to take a step back, and think about the good times and good memories as others have said, but to suggest that there is some required pity for the driver in this case - that I don't agree with, not with what SS seems to feel convinced has happened.

[GoSkins561]

SNO, I was one of the first to pull up on an accident that involved an elderly person about two weeks ago. It wasn't a bad accident however she couldn't speak or say a word because she was so shocked by what happened. When I gave her a pen to write down her daughters phone number she couldn't write. Just saying, the man might hav been freaked out by what happened and unsure how to react. Just saying.

[Ned Flanders]

I am very sorry for your loss of a good friend. I do agree about age playing a factor - My wife's Grandfather was out driving at 75 years old, and wrecked all of the time. The last time he wrecked, he T-Boned a man and his son, got out of the car, and wandered about 1 mile from the scene until an ambulance picked him up all bloody and disoriented. I put my foot down after that, got into a few fights with him, and that was that. NO MORE KEYS FOR HIM. It was a REALLY tough thing to do to him (his wife and my wife wouldn't do it), but being the man in their lives, I told them I would not let him kill anyone IF I HAD THE CHANCE to stop it. And I did. Hopefully justice will be served, but leave that up to the almighty.