The O-Line Issue is Overrated...

[eyeball]

you can get Nick Marshman from Va. Tech 6-7 340 late or as a F.A. if the Raiders dont draft him.....

[TheLongshot]

I think age is an issue from the standpoint that not being able to practice will hurt the continuity of the line. In the middle of the problems we were having offensively, most of the line was sitting at least part of the week. That isn't a good situation.

The guys we have are still capable, but you do have to wonder how many of them can make it through a full season at a high level.

[Rufus T Firefly]

I do think it's been overstated how we "ignored the lines" for years. The team certainly didn't spend much on draft picks there (probably because we traded so many picks away), but look at the salary cap figures of our starting 5 and it's hard to imagine there's been another team spending nearly as much there as we have. Throw in the investment in Todd Wade and the fact that our "cheapest" starter cost us draft picks (Kendall), and it seems silly to call the unit "ignored".

About 2 years ago the team should have started aggressively drafting depth on the line, but again, lack of picks made that hard to do. And the Wilson/Molinaro picks of a few years ago failing compounded that.

Even this previous offseason seems forgiveable, philosophically at least. The team had their starting 5 and had the promise of Heyer. Then the team adds a 3rd round OL, and it looks like the team has a plan.

As with most things on this team, the problem starts with the trading of picks, and ends with a failure of execution.

[Rufus T Firefly]

My point is that there is not one center in this league who can handle Rogers man up. Honsetly I don't think there is a player in the league at any position who could. Making any assessment of his play from that game is foolish. It was bad scheme to have him singled up on Rogers, which was brought on by the weakness of Jansen.

Yeah, the oft-repeated line here about "Rabach can't handle NTs one-on-one" is ridiculous. No Cs can handle the likes of Rogers, Wilfork, Hampton, Williams or Ngata without help. That's what makes NTs like that so valuable.

[TheLongshot]

As with most things on this team, the problem starts with the trading of picks, and ends with a failure of execution.

I think a lot of it points to the moves of 2006, which did a lot of long-term damage to this team. I still think trading for Duckett was one of the biggest dumb**** moves this organization has made.

[Rufus T Firefly]

I think a lot of it points to the moves of 2006, which did a lot of long-term damage to this team. I still think trading for Duckett was one of the biggest dumb**** moves this organization has made.

For clarifications sake, the Duckett trade was 05. The 06 mistake that cost us was Lloyd. As bad a decision as Archuleta was, it didn't cost us draft picks and I doubt the team would have spent that money elsewhere. The trades for Duckett and Lloyd cost us two 3s and two 4s, which is Exhibit A on where this team has failed the past few years.

Also, it's interesting to look at the cascade effect of the Brunell trade. The team gives up a 2004 3rd for him, then has to give up a 2 in 05 to get a lower 3rd back that year (the Cooley pick).

In 05, without that 2, the team gives up an 06 1st and 4th, plus an 05 3rd to get the 25th pick to take Campbell. If the team still had their 2nd, there's no reason to give up the 06 1st (and possibly even the 4th) to move up.

Without a 1st in 06, the team trades two 2s and a 6 to get a high 2nd to take Rocky. With a 1st, the team maybe takes a better LB (DeMeco Ryans and D'Quell Jackson went between that pick and the Rocky pick), plus have those two 2s and 6th to spend elsewhere.

And the beat goes on.....

[Chiefinonhaze]

The problem is age. Yes, these guys been good in the past, and I don't think that our OL has really been a weakness for 5 years. However, it was the #1 weakness the 2nd-half of last year and heading into this offseason.

Each of our OL have had injury issues causing them to miss practices/games. Last year, you saw the dropoff when they really couldn't hold it together for the duration of the season. Yes, a big reason we were 6-2 was because of the OL, the same thing goes for the 2-6 finish. People always try to look at the 'sexy' skill positions at WR and RB with people saying that Portis/Moss are overrated, but the fact is, we can get it done with the players we have, as long as we have a good OL.

We need younger guys that can be the next set of conerstone guys on our team to make our offense be successful in the long run.

Samuels - turns 32 by start of the season, coming off of arthroscopic knee surgery and biceps surgery, has 5 months of rehab with him likely only coming on to the practice field just at the start of training camp

Kendall - turns 36 by start of the season, coming off of 2 years when he's had to sit out of at least 1-2 practices every week because of his arthritic knees, hasn't missed a game, but how long do you think that can last?, a UFA that we have to debate whether its worth it to give another contract to an aging vet

Rabach - turns 32 in Sept, has played good, and I think he gets some unfair criticism at times, but he did struggle quite a bit with the 3-4 nose tackles this year getting pushed back at times

Thomas - 33 years old, ended 2 of the last 4 years on IR, decent but you can tell he's not the same all-pro caliber guard he was for us in 03-06

Jansen - 33 years old, in and out of the starting lineup, struggles in pass pro now, was one of our underrated players earlier in his career, but now a liability

And our two main young backups, Heyer and Rinehart haven't shown that much to the coaching staff. I had hoped that they could take starting spots, but according to JLC with his personnel discussion post, this doesn't seem to be as likely.

The OL is definitely an area of concern now. Unlike the DL, IMO, the OL hasn't been a major issue for the past 5 years, but we just stuck with aging group and they gave all they could. A top 5 OL at their peak, but we need to move on and get younger.

They are old, but still good. People praise Parcells on how he is so "great" at building a team, but yet the Cowboys O-line has no player under 31. Just because the Dolphins drafted a tackle in this past draft doesn't make Parcells a genius at building the lines.

[#98QBKiller]

Did you read the day by day blog at redskins.com this past season? From the Steelers game to the end of the season Kendall wouldn't even be on the practice field two days a week. Between age and injuries, he would need Mon, Tues, and Wed. just to recover from Sunday's game.

They let him sit out practices to rest his knees and he did that all last season and he did that with the Jets.

We need to find his replacement but he's good enough to play for us for at least another year.

[TheGoodBits]

They are old, but still good. People praise Parcells on how he is so "great" at building a team, but yet the Cowboys O-line has no player under 31. Just because the Dolphins drafted a tackle in this past draft doesn't make Parcells a genius at building the lines.

Even if they were still good (I don't think they're terrible, just not quite up to par) the real issue is that we're looking at a 100% turnover rate among starting O-linemen in the next 4 years. It is not ever easy to replace linemen, and to have to replace all of them in that short a period of time? Damn near impossible to have that happen and remain competitive during the transition. In that sense, the O-line issue is in no way "overrated."

[Wyvern]

We need an RT for sure. I'd also like to see us pick up a 'franchise' type of Center, like Mack of Cal, or Luigs of Arkansas.

Kendall may still have a year left in him, but it's time to work in the young guards into the lineup. Let's see how Rinehart turns out. He should be okay at guard, but I haven't see him play, except at tackle.

Samuels needs to be spelled from time to time -- but he's still got some years left. Let's keep him healthy, though rotation

Thomas is in decline, but we've got to keep him around due to his contract. We might be able to get him back, assuming we find a decent RT to play alongside him.

Heyer appears not to be the answer at T, either left or right. He's good enough to be a utility lineman in passing downs. He's not a good run-blocker, so it's spot backup for Heyer.

[DCMONEY]

The O-line IMO failed this team down the stretch PERIOD. The running game wasn't the same and the pass blocking was terrible. The Skins main priority this off season should be the trenches on both sidesPERIOD.

[2cents]

It can't be overrated when everything a team does depends on how the O-line performs. Run or pass will not work without an O-line. As a general rule, players with injury problems do not get healthier as they get older, so I don't think that big problem is going to go away. The totally shamefull mess is the fact that we have noone, and I mean NOONE waiting in the wings to replace any of the guys we have. Even one injury will mean we are without any hope of going forward with anyone with any hope of being a good player.

[SkinsMaster88]

They are old, but still good. People praise Parcells on how he is so "great" at building a team, but yet the Cowboys O-line has no player under 31. Just because the Dolphins drafted a tackle in this past draft doesn't make Parcells a genius at building the lines.

Parcells has been gone from Dallas for 2 years. I don't know specifically, but I'm pretty sure that would mean that during his tenure, he didn't have many of his starters over 30. Larry Allen would be the one exception.

Some of the ages of Cowboys' starters over Parcells tenure (2003-06)

LT: Adams (28-31)

LG: Kosier (27 in 2006)

C: Johnson (25-26 in 04-05)

C/G: Gurode (25-28) - I know he played some guard early on as well.

RT: Colombo (27 in 06)

Parcells drafted 5 OL/DL on the first day over his 4 years with Dallas. With Miami last year, he drafted 6 OL/DL.

I don't like Parcells personally because of his attitude and personality, but he's a good GM and he understands the importance of the trenches better than Vinny.

[IbleedBnG83]

Samuels is at the tail end of his career, so we need to think long term replacement.

Kendell is 34 and has arthritic knees. Rinehart, his backup, is untested.

Rabach had a rough start and is up in age. There is no clear cut backup.

Thomas has had some serious injuries and is old. There is no future replacement in sight.

Heyer is not the long term solution and Jansen is done. We need a new RT, period.

The line has very little depth and is up in age. This a huge area of concern. Anyone to think otherwise is blind, as we can see more than ever that the game is one in the trenches.

[wildbill1952]

My point is that there is not one center in this league who can handle Rogers man up. Honsetly I don't think there is a player in the league at any position who could. Making any assessment of his play from that game is foolish. It was bad scheme to have him singled up on Rogers, which was brought on by the weakness of Jansen.

Rabach does make the right blocking calls. His experience is his biggest asset. Unfortunately, his athleticism and execution are suspect. His problem is not just against the premier NT's like Rogers, it's against almost every NT in a 3-4. In a 4-3 his job is to help out the guards and he does that well. But one-on-one he is beaten by any bull rushing NT. He no longer makes downfield blocks. And the OLine never gets a push on short yadage from the middle of the line which falls on Rabach and the guards.

You defend the guy well and it's always comforting to know that any player who makes an NFL football team is better than 99.9% of the players who ever played the game. But the Ravens found a better guy 4 years ago. And I think the Skins could also. Either Alex Mack or Jonathan Luigs would stand a better chance against the NT's like Rogers. And they could play guard also.

I'm not saying to dump Rabach or any of the OLine that gets replaced. Historically depth has always been a problem. If a new guy beats out Jansen, Thomas, Rabach, Kendall or even Samuels, don't just cut the old guy loose. Keep them as experienced depth. They might wear out over a season, but coming in when the first string guy tweaks an ankle or a knee might extend their careers two or more seasons.

Is Center the biggest need? Tough call when there's so much need at OL. The OL is a team within the team and an upgrade at one OL position can make the whole OL better. (Not as much as 5 new guys, but you get my point.) But I'd probably search for a replacement for Kendall first, Jansen second and Rabach third, all things being equal. But with limited draft choices and limited talent in the draft at the guard and center positions, I think the OLine has to be made a two year upgrade, getting two positions this year, if at all possible. If one of them is a center/guard, it wouldn't bother me.

Personally, I'll take anything we can get.

[fansince62]

Dude I've seen Heyer play really well at times. And wasn't Rhinehart a 3rd rounder? We haven't completely neglected the lines. Rabach was a solid addition. Dockery was a homegrown talent. Samuels AND Jansen were both high draft picks. We haven't exactly NEEDED lineman in recent history.

Drafting lineman is good, but the Line issue can also be solved through Free agency. Drafting isn't the ONLY way to improve the lines. We could get Gross and imrpve our line automatically.

I agree about your point of preparing for the future, we could have done better at that. But we have had a great line in recent history so the issue is overrated.

great line???? are you kidding?

the line has always lacked depth....has been porous up the middle...gets its arse handed to it in the playoffs.

you all are enamored by names and press clippings. it's been a slightly above average O-line all along that has had pass blocking issues for years and run blocking issues in short yardage situations when it mattered most.

but...we can always dream of a line built from the draft rather than the tried and true Redskin formula of expensive FAs good for 3-4 yrs (and lots of injuries!!!!).

[PROSCOUT]

Yes we have some really good players on the line........WHEN THEY ARE HEALTHY.

The issue here is that Samuels is always hurt at the beginning or end of the season, Thomas is having a hard time finishing the season, Jansen is constantly getting beaten or hurt, and Heyer who is an excellent young tackle seems to be getting injured as well.

The Skins need to get right tackle who can play at Pro Bowl level, and then Heyer becomes a floating tackle and we are set. Then we need to draft a guard in the first round, who can backup Thomas and Kendall, assuming we re-sign him.

You are right about the line not being to "shabby", and I think we only need to free agent 1 right tackle and draft 1 guard for this line to b e in good shape, although if I had my way, we would replace out center as well. We haven't had a pro bowl center who can dominate since Len Hauss. When everybody is healthy, center is actually our weakest position, in my opinion.

[2cents]

Jeff Bostic was not a bad center.

[DexterSackMachine]

The o-line thing is certainly the flavor of the month here in Redskinland.

Our O-line needs to be better , no doubt, but a Franchise QB seems to be a key ingredient in being a perennial championship contender as well. If you have a great O-line with a mediocre QB, you wind up being the Minnesota Vikings!

So it's not ALL about O-line and D-line like everyone is obsessing about right now, but it certainly is the biggest area of weakness for the Redskins right now. In that respect, I understand the fan concern.

And for what it's worth, I believe Skins have to spend the 13th pick on one of the 4 quality tackles in the draft.

[feeshta]

Rabach does make the right blocking calls. His experience is his biggest asset. Unfortunately, his athleticism and execution are suspect. His problem is not just against the premier NT's like Rogers, it's against almost every NT in a 3-4. In a 4-3 his job is to help out the guards and he does that well. But one-on-one he is beaten by any bull rushing NT. He no longer makes downfield blocks. And the OLine never gets a push on short yadage from the middle of the line which falls on Rabach and the guards.

You defend the guy well and it's always comforting to know that any player who makes an NFL football team is better than 99.9% of the players who ever played the game. But the Ravens found a better guy 4 years ago. And I think the Skins could also. Either Alex Mack or Jonathan Luigs would stand a better chance against the NT's like Rogers. And they could play guard also.

I'm not saying to dump Rabach or any of the OLine that gets replaced. Historically depth has always been a problem. If a new guy beats out Jansen, Thomas, Rabach, Kendall or even Samuels, don't just cut the old guy loose. Keep them as experienced depth. They might wear out over a season, but coming in when the first string guy tweaks an ankle or a knee might extend their careers two or more seasons.

Is Center the biggest need? Tough call when there's so much need at OL. The OL is a team within the team and an upgrade at one OL position can make the whole OL better. (Not as much as 5 new guys, but you get my point.) But I'd probably search for a replacement for Kendall first, Jansen second and Rabach third, all things being equal. But with limited draft choices and limited talent in the draft at the guard and center positions, I think the OLine has to be made a two year upgrade, getting two positions this year, if at all possible. If one of them is a center/guard, it wouldn't bother me.

Personally, I'll take anything we can get.

The only "need" on the O-line is at RT. Everything else is wants. Rabach is a perfectly adequate center who is being asked to do too much.

I'm all for building depth on the O-line and getting future starters in place now rather than later, and if any of the guys you bring in happen to outperform the incumbent, then great! But the reality is that it is unlikely that anyone we draft will be able to supplant the starter at any position along the line except RT.

You have a much greater chance of affecting positive change on the team at other positions in the near term. Specifically we could really use a better SLB, and a DT who is capable of pushing the pocket occasionally. Those three positions, RT, SLB, and DT are where I would focus my resources.

[C26 Run]

Absolutely not. We have a young HC and he's got to get the tools needed to have a successful season. I don't want to see another HC getting fired on the account of bad play. Our O-line needs get bigger and younger especially at the G positions.

Take tonights' SB as an example. Both lines on both teams played well enough in critical moments of the game. Line play is the backbone for every great championship team in the NFL. :helmet:

[TheLongshot]

For clarifications sake, the Duckett trade was 05.

Uh, no, it was 06, the year Portis was hurt. That is what drove the trade.

[10fttall]

Watching the Superbowl reminded me that a team can still look crisp and be major contenders, even with a spotty O-line, like the Cards. If you have a QB that reads quickly, receivers that actually have hands, and machine-like execution; you can get past some pretty poor pass protection.

Zorn desperately needs to figure out a way to make our players execute more like this.

[jivelikenice]

Agreed...A good o-line can make things a lot easier, but we have our blinders on if we think that Campbell is a Big Ben in waiting with the o-line being the only thing holding him back....

We need help on the line, but nonetheless we need a qb that will keep the play alive and will continue to look downfield even when he's in trouble...Big Ben is absolutely ridiculous at continuing to look downfield while moving around the pocket buying time behind a mediocre at best o-line. (You can really make the argument that our o-line is better then theirs) That is something that JC just can't do....

[str8jacket]

I agree. I think that the o line has been excellent the last 5 years with exceptions such as periods of time like this year when injuries came up. But it is something we need to address and think we do have the good fortune of having some good players there that can show a youngster the ropes.