Thinking Skins Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 So we've finished our first year with Malcolm Kelly and serious questions have been posed about his knees. Some people have questioned whether he will ever be able to be a consistent NFL WR. What I don't get is how he went through 3 years of college and put up the stats there on these knees. Thats kinda why I don't get the rumors about his knees being that bad. I've read a few articles that discuss this, but none at length: Here's an article from his agent Agent says Kelly's thigh, knee injuries pose no problems I see that he left the Fiesta Bowl two years in a row (once with a knee injury and once with a thigh injury). But I have never heard about his knees keeping him from practice or out of a game in college. Is it just that the NFL is more physical and more demanding? Also, all the reports of the players in the NFL who had "degenerative knee condition" seem to have developed it after a serious injury - i.e. Terrell Davis, Mark Bavaro, Curtis Martin. I hear stuff about bone on bone contact in some of these guys, and I find it hard to believe that Kelly could have even played in college if this was the truth. So was there a serious injury that caused this? is this a rumor? How were his knees after Zorn's threat of putting him on IR? So does anybody have any information on what causes degenerative knee condition and how many college players have such a condition and still play, but are unable to make it pro? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavedude Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 From this article -- http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/2132309/ -- pretty bad. The gist of the article is that Kelly encouraged OU OL standout Trent Williams to return to school for senior season, play LT and boost draft potential from 2nd round this year to 1st round next year. Why didn't Kelly follow his own advice and stay at OU for a national title run rather than coming out as he did? His own concern about his knees. According to the article, a source says there is hardly any cartilege left in his knees, and that if he had stayed at OU and missed any games, he would have been an udrafted free agent in this year's draft. YIKES.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 From this article -- http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/2132309/ -- pretty bad. The gist of the article is that Kelly encouraged OU OL standout Trent Williams to return to school for senior season, play LT and boost draft potential from 2nd round this year to 1st round next year. Why didn't Kelly follow his own advice and stay at OU for a national title run rather than coming out as he did? His own concern about his knees. According to the article, a source says there is hardly any cartilege left in his knees, and that if he had stayed at OU and missed any games, he would have been an udrafted free agent in this year's draft. YIKES.... Thats a nice article, but without sources its no better than a JLC article. It'd be nice to have an actual doctor come out and say that he has a degenerative knee condition. For all we know Kelly could have left school because he wanted the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stophovr6 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Thats a nice article, but without sources its no better than a JLC article. It'd be nice to have an actual doctor come out and say that he has a degenerative knee condition. For all we know Kelly could have left school because he wanted the money. I don't think a doctor is allowed to do that. And what would be the doctors motivation anyways? Anywho, the way I understand it is this. Everyone in the league knew about his knee, even us. Most people dropped him off their boards. Jason Campbell along with Snyderatto went to work out with Kelly personally. Campbell said he wanted to throw to Kelly, Snyderatto drafted him. There wasn't much deception here. We rolled the dice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pounds Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 The truest answer is, who knows? I've read, as I'm sure you have as well, many Redskins Insider posts chronicling the many struggles he had in training camp with his knee, the 'scope he had thereafter, the knee drains, him working with a specialist from Toronto, etc. Supposedly, Vinny got a clean bill from the OU medical staff. And, yet, supposedly, there were trainers on our own staff who advised against his being drafted by us. Only time will tell... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimmySmith Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Thats a nice article, but without sources its no better than a JLC article. It'd be nice to have an actual doctor come out and say that he has a degenerative knee condition. That would completely violate ethics, and the Doc could lose his license at most. At least, he would have his pants sued off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 I don't think a doctor is allowed to do that. And what would be the doctors motivation anyways?Anywho, the way I understand it is this. Everyone in the league knew about his knee, even us. Most people dropped him off their boards. Jason Campbell along with Snyderatto went to work out with Kelly personally. Campbell said he wanted to throw to Kelly, Snyderatto drafted him. There wasn't much deception here. We rolled the dice. But the thing is that I've heard the same rumors about Rocky McIntosh, Alge Crumpler, and Tommie Harris. Tommie Harris, though, had a doctor come out and say that he didn't have a degenerative knee condition. Kelly had the same in the article I posted above. So how do we separate the rumors from the truth. And has a college player ever had a degenerative knee condition and still put up good stats? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stophovr6 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 But the thing is that I've heard the same rumors about Rocky McIntosh, Alge Crumpler, and Tommie Harris. Tommie Harris, though, had a doctor come out and say that he didn't have a degenerative knee condition. Kelly had the same in the article I posted above. So how do we separate the rumors from the truth. And has a college player ever had a degenerative knee condition and still put up good stats? Because a patient can ask a doctor to publicly tell the world that his knee's are fine. But a doctor can't actually come out and release any information without the patients consent. I think you can find a thread here that lists players in the NFL with degenerative knee conditions that have had successful careers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MN Skins Fan Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Just thought I'd add my two cents. I have what would be classified as a degenerative knee condition. I'm no pro football player, so I'm not saying my condition is the same thing...just trying to provide some info. Essentially what it is (in my case anyway) is arthritis brought on by a traumatic knee injury. In my case, I tore my ACL and medial meniscus about ten years ago. According to my doctor, who also happens to work with athletes from a few of the Minnesota sports teams, it is common for a person to develop arthritis within 10 to 15 years after this sort of injury. Continued activities that put stress on the joint will only make the condition worse. Still, it isn't an overnight thing. I was told that if I stop running and other stressful activities I may buy myself another 10 years before needing a total replacement (~35 years as opposed to ~25 years). It's not as if every day is worse than the day before either. It's a few weeks of pain during a flare up, separated by months of feeling just fine. Now, as a football player, I'm sure Kelly has endured far more punishment. In my opinion, however, I would think that should he/the trainers take proper care he should have a few good years ahead of him. Then again, I could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwSEANd Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 I don't think a doctor is allowed to do that. And what would be the doctors motivation anyways?Anywho, the way I understand it is this. Everyone in the league knew about his knee, even us. Most people dropped him off their boards. Jason Campbell along with Snyderatto went to work out with Kelly personally. Campbell said he wanted to throw to Kelly, Snyderatto drafted him. There wasn't much deception here. We rolled the dice. that sounds about right, except for one part: there is no way to know where Kelly was on other teams' boards. all we know is that no one took him before us. for all we know, he would've been taken with the next pick. and if a team a few picks behind us DID want him, you think they would admit that after the fact? no way. the simple truth of the matter is that, given their abilities, Devin Thomas and Malcolm Kelly would've been top-20 picks (and therefore beyond our reach) if they didn't have large question marks attached - Kelly's knees and Thomas' lack of experience. Thomas is starting to develop that experience, and it seems like Kelly's knees have been fine since about October. i am now very confident that Thomas will develop into a solid #1/#2 receiver. Kelly... well, you never know with knees, but if he's healthy, he could be our Plaxico... except replace "he brought a gun to a nightclub" with "he went on a humanitarian mission to Africa." also, in the spirit of the initial poster's question, can anyone find me sources of these VERY commonly used "facts"? (1) A team/combine doctor said that Kelly has the worst knees he's ever seen. and (2) Devin Thomas has a terrible work ethic. everything i've read about Thomas about his work ethic since mini-camp has been extremely positive, except what people write on these boards. as for the doctor's comment about Kelly's knees, people have been throwing that around for a while and it also seems to be exclusively message-board-material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 Because a patient can ask a doctor to publicly tell the world that his knee's are fine. But a doctor can't actually come out and release any information without the patients consent.I think you can find a thread here that lists players in the NFL with degenerative knee conditions that have had successful careers. Yeah, so how do we know who's telling the truth. I'm not trying to judge (or get my hopes up) based on speculated rumors. I've heard of players whose stock dropped because they got injured in a bowl game. I've heard of players whose stock dropped because of a senior year injury. But I've never heard of a player whose stock dropped based purely on rumors, as it seems Kelly's have. Maybe Kelly does have bad knees. I'm not trying to debate that. What I've been looking for today is other people that would fall into the same category as kelly - players who put up really good numbers in college, but couldn't make it in the NFL because of a degenerative knee condition. Or is it just that rare that we can't compare Kelly to anybody else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwSEANd Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Because a patient can ask a doctor to publicly tell the world that his knee's are fine. But a doctor can't actually come out and release any information without the patients consent.I think you can find a thread here that lists players in the NFL with degenerative knee conditions that have had successful careers. a patient can't tell a doctor to say anything false to the media. the patient can waive dr/patient confidentiality but, by default, the doctor won't release any information about the patient. the patient can't tell the doctor to lie, especially publicly. given the injury/health clauses in athletes' contracts, lying publicly could make the doctor liable for fraud. also, in this instance, the burden of proof would be on those who say that Kelly DOES have a degenerative knee condition. you can't just say "prove he doesn't!" because that's a witch hunt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiscoBob Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 How bad are MK's knees? as bad as Carlos' hands.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 (2) Devin Thomas has a terrible work ethic. Well ya know, that must be true because it was in a JLC article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stophovr6 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Yeah, so how do we know who's telling the truth. I'm not trying to judge (or get my hopes up) based on speculated rumors. I've heard of players whose stock dropped because they got injured in a bowl game. I've heard of players whose stock dropped because of a senior year injury. But I've never heard of a player whose stock dropped based purely on rumors, as it seems Kelly's have. Maybe Kelly does have bad knees. I'm not trying to debate that. What I've been looking for today is other people that would fall into the same category as kelly - players who put up really good numbers in college, but couldn't make it in the NFL because of a degenerative knee condition. Or is it just that rare that we can't compare Kelly to anybody else? Well seeing as he had to have his knee drained several times this season, I'd say there is a problem. I don't know that it's degenerative. His doctor does, and either he is telling the truth and his knee will be manageable throughout his career, or he is dishonest. That's the part of the game that is the business side. Rumors have definitely had effects on players draft status. Whether is be medical, personal or otherwise, I think it would be naive to believe that Team managers aren't affected by rumors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stophovr6 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 a patient can't tell a doctor to say anything false to the media. the patient can waive dr/patient confidentiality but, by default, the doctor won't release any information about the patient. the patient can't tell the doctor to lie, especially publicly. given the injury/health clauses in athletes' contracts, lying publicly could make the doctor liable for fraud.also, in this instance, the burden of proof would be on those who say that Kelly DOES have a degenerative knee condition. you can't just say "prove he doesn't!" because that's a witch hunt. You mean you can't find a doctor to take a bribe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwSEANd Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 You mean you can't find a doctor to take a bribe? you mean that you BELIEVE that Malcolm Kelly, the biggest humanitarian on the Skins, bribed a doctor to publicly lie in order to artificially inflate his draft status, despite the fact that he has to pass team physicals when he shows up to camp anyway. that's quite a theory. what are your thoughts on the moon landing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stophovr6 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 you mean that you BELIEVE that Malcolm Kelly, the biggest humanitarian on the Skins, bribed a doctor to publicly lie in order to artificially inflate his draft status, despite the fact that he has to pass team physicals when he shows up to camp anyway.that's quite a theory. what are your thoughts on the moon landing? Actually no, I don't believe this to be true. What I'm trying to get at is that things aren't black and white. There is plenty of gray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhouse Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 ThinkingSkins, you start very insightful threads on this board. Keep it up. On the topic of Kelly's knees, I have to think they're not as bad as the rumors say. On more than one occasion, the team has decided to hold off on putting him on IR. There is no way a rookie head coach with his reputation on the line not think twice about that move. He would definitely check with the medical staff to get as much info before making that call. If these rumors were even somewhat true, Zorn would at least sit him out for the year. But instead he just let him rest for a few weeks and even activated him for a game or two after that. On top of that, Kelly's knees have not been a topic of conversation for the past 2 months or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paloosa Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 No one on here is qualified, including me, to say that any player that is drafted is a bust. We only have our opinions. Malcolm Kelly was drafted because he is an excellent receiver and has great hands. Now we all know that no one here can predict the future so drafting the right players is a crap shoot. If Kelly has that bad of knees and retires then I wish him well because he is thinking of his health. If the knees are ok and he produces then everyone here that doubted his abilities or whether he would contribute will be cheering him on. So no one knows the truth and only post these articles to point fingers at someone and say, "See, Cerrato doesn't know how to draft." or "See what Dan Snyder allows to pick our players." There are other GM's with worst track records and aren't employeed anymore. Who would you rather have, Cerrato or Millen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stophovr6 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Who would you rather have, Cerrato or Millen? Because these are the only two options in the world? Of course I'd rather have Cerrato, doesn't mean I can't pine for better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Can't Snyder pay someone to kill a hobo and put his knees in Kelly's body? Jesus. It's so simple! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoEd Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 the simple truth of the matter is that, given their abilities, Devin Thomas and Malcolm Kelly would've been top-20 picks (and therefore beyond our reach) if they didn't have large question marks attached - Kelly's knees and Thomas' lack of experience. We're there any WR's taken before Kelly and Thomas? I can't remember for sure but if I'm not mistaken they were some of the first if not the first WR's drafted. Maybe Sweed went before but I can't remember and I'm too lazy to search right now. My point is, I wouldn't say that their draft stock necessarily dropped rather there were better players at different positions before them. Even when we drafted them most "ANALysts" were saying that they were the top rated players at their position. Anyone noticing a trend lately in regards to the draft? WR's, running backs and QB's are starting to drop considerably outside the obvious McFaddens, Calvin Johnsons and Petersons. A lot of teams are realizing that without DL and OL's all the talent in the world does you no good. Wonder when we're going to figure that out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRobi21 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 "They are SUPA BAD!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 We rolled the dice. Thats exactly what we did - we took a flyer that he would contribute with 'tana & ARE whilst Thomas developed for a season or two. We rolled the dice with him all season long - Thats why he never hit IR. IMO, the future of MK is a complete ? - Hopefully we role a 6 in the end ( or maybe a 5 will do ) I'll be interested to see how this offseason / training camp goes. If his knees are knackered we'll soon find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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