AP: Redskins' Cerrato not Mr. Popularity (M.E.T.)

[maskedsuperstar]

Did Vinny cost the playoffs? I think Kendall and Sellers did. Those 2 plays cost the Skins the playoffs. Some of the players need to be held accountable. Plus, the Vinny threads are getting old.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/31/AR2008123102769.html?sub=AR

Now, he did admit the Skins must improve in key areas. Lets see what he does to fix the problem.

[Horatio]

Vinny is a complete joke. If Snyder had any brain, he'd go after Scott Pioli and get a real GM.

It's not that Snyder doesn't have a brain, it's that he wants someone he can CONTROL. Snyder treats this team like a fantasy football experiment, only he doesn't want all the criticism from his meddling, so he puts people in place who will bow to him.

The last kind of GM Snyder will hire is one who wants autonomy from the ownership.

[scruffylookin]

Actually, I think Rogers has played close to the level of a top pick. His only issue, IMO, is that he can't seem to catch the damn ball. He's certainly been better than the two guys picked ahead of him. Rolle ended up moving to safety, where he's been decent, but unspectacular, and we know what has happened with Pacman.

As for Landry, I think he's been more than worth the top pick. The problem is, he's always going to be compared to Sean Taylor, who had unreal ability. Also, Landry is still growing as a player. I expect he will get even better.

While Campbell will always be on Vinny's record, I think the pick was more to do with Gibbs than with Vinny. Gibbs was the one who went down to interview him and work him out in Auburn and probably made the call to make the trade to go up and get him.

Then there is the missing pick, which was used on Coles first, then Moss. That overall has worked out positively, tho there have been some negative consequences for getting rid of Coles.

We'll agree to disagree on Rogers and Landry. I'm tired of trying to go over why both players have not been worth their selections. I'll leave it at they've been at best solid players (again at best) and you don't expect only "solid" players from the 8th and 6th picks in the entire draft. But I'll concede that many others disagree with that assessment and feel that both players have been worth those picks. Again, agree to disagree.

Gibbs has always left it very nebulous as to how selections were made during his time (and that still seems to be the case with Zorn using the same Gibbs line that "it's a group decision between Snyder, Vinny and myself") and thus Campbell's success or failure will have to go on Vinny's record unless he comes right out and says "not my choice" like Casserly did years later with regards to Heath Shuler vs. Trent Dilfer.

As for 2003, that pick was the 13th pick in the draft. Has Santana Moss done enough to be worthy of that high of a selection (assuming that I grant you that we should apply the value of that pick towards the player we ultimately got with it)? That can be up for debate. He's been a good player for us with some moments that will be forever a part of the tapestry of Skins history, but has he been #13 draft pick worthy? No slam dunk either way. His 2005 season would have been #13 worthy, but things have been a little more murky for him since that spectacular debut.

But regardless of all that, I'm still curious to the history between Vinny and Danny. How did Vinny get together with Danny? What did Danny see in Vinny's track record in SF that told him, "Yup Casserly has got to go and this guy Cerrato needs to be put in charge of personel"?

That to me is the key to the answer of why Snyder is sticking with Vinny because the on field results of their time together has produced a sub .500 record with only 2 6th seed playoff appearences in 8 full seasons. Nobody can say that Vinny is still here on merit or team success plus he's had no history of real success to coast on. At least Casserly had "he brought in some key Plan B free agents in 89/90/91" that he was able to ride for a while before his ability was questioned.

[deejaydana]

I don't know if firing Cerrato would even make a difference. The article states, straight from Vinny's mouth, that Snyder has final say so on players and all deals regarding personnel (its his right because, well he owns the whole thing BUT truly effective leadership realizes you DELEGATE those tasks that others do better than you do). Since Snyder doesn't know how to scout AT ALL we really are "Raiders East" good luck winning within that system. God I hope I'm wrong (I've been saying that to myself since 1999 now). *sigh*

[Ernie5]

This is pretty meaningless stuff.

[Ernie5]

I don't know if firing Cerrato would even make a difference. The article states, straight from Vinny's mouth, that Snyder has final say so on players and all deals regarding personnel (its his right because, well he owns the whole thing BUT truly effective leadership realizes you DELEGATE those tasks that others do better than you do). Since Snyder doesn't know how to scout AT ALL we really are "Raiders East" good luck winning within that system. God I hope I'm wrong (I've been saying that to myself since 1999 now). *sigh*

Actually, the decision-maker doesn't need to be a scout. The decision-maker relies on scouts (like Cerrato, Morocco Brown, etc ...). For instance, George McPhee isn't a scout for the Caps, but he relies on Ross Mahoney to the scouting for him.

[deejaydana]

Actually, the decision-maker doesn't need to be a scout. The decision-maker relies on scouts (like Cerrato, Morocco Brown, etc ...). For instance, George McPhee isn't a scout for the Caps, but he relies on Ross Mahoney to the scouting for him.

My point was, and this is just perception (I have no idea if it's reality): Snyder overrides all decisions ala Al Davis in Oakland. I could be wrong but I get the impression that's what's happening upstairs at Fed Ex Field.

[Stophovr6]

My point was, and this is just perception (I have no idea if it's reality): Snyder overrides all decisions ala Al Davis in Oakland. I could be wrong but I get the impression that's what's happening upstairs at Fed Ex Field.

I would say that it is reality given this quote.

The fancy title doesn't mean Cerrato has full autonomy. All of the big decisions must pass muster with Snyder, who as owner retains the ultimate say-so.

"We take to him everything that involves money because it's his money, absolutely," Cerrato said. "And when we're drafting, and you're picking high, he wants to see who he's going to pay, so to me that's totally fine. But he lets everybody do their job. And he likes the recruiting part, too, which is a big plus for us because the buck stops with the owner."

[TheLongshot]

We'll agree to disagree on Rogers and Landry. I'm tired of trying to go over why both players have not been worth their selections. I'll leave it at they've been at best solid players (again at best) and you don't expect only "solid" players from the 8th and 6th picks in the entire draft. But I'll concede that many others disagree with that assessment and feel that both players have been worth those picks. Again, agree to disagree.

I look at that 2005 draft and I see a lot of busts early in that draft. Alex Smith, Cedric Benson, Troy Williamson, Pacman Jones, Mike Williams. Cadallac Williams looks like he will have his career cut short. Antrell Rolle had to be moved to safety. The only real studs in the top 10 ended up being Ronnie Brown and Braylon Edwards. Even after we picked, there weren't too many players I would have wanted. Neither Ware or Merriman fit what we do on defense. The other defensive linemen in that round (Travis Johnson, Erasmus James, Marcus Spears) haven't done all that much. Jammal Brown looks like the only other good player we would have been likely to draft. Looking at that bunch, Rogers looks pretty darn good.

I disagree that both are only "solid". They are definitely good players. Rogers would be a great player if he could only hold onto the ball. Landry pretty much plays center field back there all by himself and manages to keep teams from beating us deep. I know we are probably spoiled by having Sean Taylor in the past, but the plays will come for Landry as well.

Gibbs has always left it very nebulous as to how selections were made during his time (and that still seems to be the case with Zorn using the same Gibbs line that "it's a group decision between Snyder, Vinny and myself") and thus Campbell's success or failure will have to go on Vinny's record unless he comes right out and says "not my choice" like Casserly did years later with regards to Heath Shuler vs. Trent Dilfer.

I wouldn't say Vinny had nothing to do with it, but a lot of decisions were driven by Gibbs and his staff and they probably didn't move forward with anything without Gibbs' approval.

As for 2003, that pick was the 13th pick in the draft. Has Santana Moss done enough to be worthy of that high of a selection (assuming that I grant you that we should apply the value of that pick towards the player we ultimately got with it)? That can be up for debate. He's been a good player for us with some moments that will be forever a part of the tapestry of Skins history, but has he been #13 draft pick worthy? No slam dunk either way. His 2005 season would have been #13 worthy, but things have been a little more murky for him since that spectacular debut.

Considering how many busts seem to happen with WRs picked that high, I do think he's probably worth that high. He's better than Bryant Johnson, who was picked at #17 in that draft.

But regardless of all that, I'm still curious to the history between Vinny and Danny. How did Vinny get together with Danny? What did Danny see in Vinny's track record in SF that told him, "Yup Casserly has got to go and this guy Cerrato needs to be put in charge of personel"?

That to me is the key to the answer of why Snyder is sticking with Vinny because the on field results of their time together has produced a sub .500 record with only 2 6th seed playoff appearences in 8 full seasons. Nobody can say that Vinny is still here on merit or team success plus he's had no history of real success to coast on. At least Casserly had "he brought in some key Plan B free agents in 89/90/91" that he was able to ride for a while before his ability was questioned.

Well, Vinny does have his work in SF to point at, tho there are some negatives there as well as the positive. At the same time, he has the same problem there as here: he wasn't the main person making decisions there.

But, that's going to be true no matter who you promote. (and most of the time, you are going to promote someone to the position, whether it is from your team or someone else's team. GMs don't typically change jobs.) You have to have a certain comfort level with the guy, and Snyder definitely seems to have a high comfort level with Vinny.

As for the success of the team, there is one aspect that Vinny had no influence on until this year: the selection of the head coach. Considering that that drives just about everything else the team does, it is a pretty big thing not to have control of. I think not having control of that hurt Casserly here, since he never seemed to get along with Norv.

[BleedinBurgNGold]

The most Telling thing to me is that when Schotty fired him, not ONE NFL team offered him as much as a Janitorial job. That speaks Volumes

[Taylor 36]

I think Vinny is OK, not good, but an OK personnel guy. We need to do better but don't get the Vinny is a blithering idiot comments. UNLIKE, Millen he pretty much always gets first round picks right: Landry, Taylor, arguably Rogers. He's made other decent moves like trading up to get Chris Cooley. The Santana Moss deal was arguably good.

It's not like he never finds late round talent: Montgomry, Golston, Horton. Some people on this board worship, Brennan, well he didn't fall out of the sky, Vinny drafted him. As for FA's, he's not exactly been a disaster: London Fletcher, Marcus Washington, Griffin, Randy Thomas, Shawn Springs.

And the team hasn't been really bad, its been medicore. IMO Vinny is an average GM type, some good moves, some bad moves. My best guess, and its purely a guess is what keeps Vinny around beside being close to Snyder is some of the dumb moves by the team were pushed by others in their GM by committee set up they had under Gibbs.

I recall reading in one of the WP exposes about the team a couple of years ago it implied Saunders really pushed hard for Lloyd and Duckett and Gregg Williams wanted Archuleta. We all recall Joe Gibbs being in love with Brunell and also Gibbs wasn't big on the draft and preferred veterans. Hard for me to imagine Cerrato foisting Brunell on Gibbs -- trading a third rounder to get this guy to me feels like a Joe Gibbs move.

I am not saying any of this to defend Cerrato. I'd like him gone too. But my take is if for example Snyder actually listened to the fan base about not hiring Fassel during the off season as some suspect (who knows if he really did, I suspect not but lets play along) -- I don't think he would take the dump Cerrato drill as seriously becuase IMO its really hard to make the case that Cerrato is a joke if you go though all of his deals and if Cerrato took the blame but others are responsible for some of the dumber moves made by the FO -- which I think is at least plausible, Snyder would likely if anything be thankfull that Cerrato is willing to be the whipping boy and take the shots from us and the media.

I guess am on 980's Kevin Sheehan bandwagon about Vinny. He makes the case and I agree that Vinny is a football guy, but not really a good football guy, not a bad one either. He's OK. And as long as you settle for OK you are going to be 8-8 a lot -- not Matt Millen 0-16, 2-14, but 7-9, 9-7, 8-8.

Good assessment. I have to agree. For me, the verdict is still out on Vinnie because of the fact that NO ONE really knows for sure, except for the people who actually sat in the war room, which players were picked by Vinnie and who were brought in by others (Gibbs, G. Williams, Saunders).

There are definitely picks and FA's that have panned out great for us. I don't know who gets credit for each of those either, but the fact is that Vinnie will not be gone before this draft, and it will be telling to see how he handles it this April. Atleast we all know that last year and this year ARE all on him. And, one year is not always enough time to judge a draft class, so some of our '08 oicks may pan out well for us yet.

[stwasm]

"If it ain't broke don't fix it!"

That was Snyder's quote when asked about bringing in a real GM while they were conducting the coaching search. The arrogance of that man is the death of this football team.

[aubreyjn]

"When I was in San Francisco, they didn't like me because I was too young being the personnel director of a Super Bowl team. It's been my whole career.

because you're incompetent!!!!!!!!!!!!

:dallasuck:eaglesuck:gaintsuck:dallasuck:dallasuck

[aubreyjn]

Did Vinny cost the playoffs? I think Kendall and Sellers did. Those 2 plays cost the Skins the playoffs. Some of the players need to be held accountable. Plus, the Vinny threads are getting old.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/31/AR2008123102769.html?sub=AR

Now, he did admit the Skins must improve in key areas. Lets see what he does to fix the problem.

i gonna go ahead and say no here. There is absolutely no way you can

pin missing the playoffs on two players, that is absurd! secondly vinny has

done nothing in washington except field a team of average, older veterans

who never have had an actually shot at competing for a lombardi trophy.

8 years, 2 6th seeded playoff appearances (thank you gibbs) and no

upside for the future.

[angel2]

He is getting better in his new role as the years advance. Dan will never ever hire a "GM" as some of you wish. Vinny is a OK dude.

[Hamilbone13]

The only reason Vinny is around is because Snyder does most of the decision making. If Snyder truely was out of the way, then Vinny would have been gone long ago.

Also, top free agent coaches such as Shannahan or Cowher would never take this gig with Snyder meddling as much as he does. That's why we're stuck with Vinny and Zorn folks!!

[Dirk Diggler]

“Are the Redskins going to fire (executive VP/football operations) Vinny Cerrato for this mess? Are there any other executives hosting their own drive-time radio shows? He’s the laughingstock of D.C. Even the fans can figure out what the owner is too blind to see. As long as (Cerrato) is in the building, the Redskins have no chance.”

http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/The+Way+We+Hear+It/Audibles/2008/audibles2325.htm