Just watched a report on the Palins and the A.I.P. (that radical Alaskan party).

[Jumbo]

So first, let’s get the sources ID’ed right up front. The network is CNN, talking head is Rick Sanchez, his guest for part of the story is a “well-known” journalist (David something) currently writing for Salon (I have never read that mag but have heard the name)--but on the show Sanchez identified it as a “left-leaning” magazine. And then there were various newspaper quotes, audio and video clipss (for Todd’s comments; Volger’s comments, Palin’s comments).

This is the group Todd is said to have been an “active member” of for some time. Here’s the details as offered (I took notes while watching):

First, they played audio tape of several Joe Volger talks--Volger being the deceased head and founder of the Alaska Independent Party. He said, among other things that he has “real hatred for America”; and separately, that he “hated our government” and that he would never “want to be buried under that damn flag.” (I got the “that damn flag” right but am not sure I got the “buried” part right). He said “the government is my worst enemy “ and that he is ready to ”fight them to the death” . He said ‘I hope we don’t have to take life” (and the next phrase it’s hard to read my own notes :doh: but it looks like) “but look-out, reality is we may have to”-- but I’m not sure about that part, sorry.

The report said the A.I.P was an offspring of members from the Patriots militia groups in the lower 48 and the A.I. P. has ties to John Birch society. Later, I’ll give some personal input on that from spending 25 years in Alaska.

They they played a video of Palin addressing the A.I.P , as governor prior to their convention. She said she thought they were “an important party” and she “shared their vision” She then just said a bunch of typical political-speak like she wanted their backing and identified with a commitment to strong states rights platform.. There’s more but I ran out of time.

The show reported at the end that while they had asked a McCain representative to be part of the broadcast and were declined, that a member in the camp said “they were upset” the story was even being run.

They also got a call from Lynnette Clark, current head of the A.I.P. who said they had been “jazzed” to have had Sarah Palin's support for the group.

So I felt this was a great example of what I have been saying---that more stuff like this, just as is happening with Ayers & Acorn, is going to continue to come out in greater depth and flurry as we wind down. The worth or lack of each story will likely do little to change anyone‘s support, yet it will generate much discussion anyway. I don’t think that’s a bad thing in the end.

Re: John Birch---they were very noticeable up there in the 60’s and 70’s. They had little “stores” in strip malls where they’d sell their propaganda and sit around and "con-verse" (their term). My non-political (we made fun of everything) non-PC (concept didn’t exist) hoodlum friends and I would go in there and pretend to be bigots, racists, and redneck militants (words we used) and draw out all their lunacy. In the interests of equal time, we were merciless to certain kinds of hippes too--just ne'er-do-wells and miscreants, we were.

Anyway, we’d rent the tapes and they’d give us stuff for free because they thought we were the future of America (they were right). One fave vid was literally about taking Negros out to the woodshed and beating them for their own good and how freedom had set their (the "Negros") race backwards. There’s tons more I could tell. Our John Birch visits were a good part of one summer of fun and the parties we‘d have at the house with their literature and acting stuff out was hysterical. Our "Negro” friends loved it.

[Special K]

Yeah, never having been to Alaska, I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on AIP and what the prevalence of this group is throughout Alaska. Not loaded questions, I'm just curious.

In regards to the actual topic, AIP sounds like a pretty radical group. If it is as radical as what I have seen in media reports, I would be interested in learning more about the extent of Todd's "involvement" as well as whether Gov. Palin was just giving political lip-service to this group when she spoke to them or if she truly supported this party.

[Cooked Crack]

I'm actually surprised the mainstream media has touched this story. If Michelle Obama was part of this, you know Fox News would never let it go. Also it's kind of hypocritical asking who the real Barack Obama is if your husband is palling around with secessionists. Also there's a picture circulating with Palin reading a Birch Society publication. I can't blame her though since she reads everything, good or bad.

[brandymac27]

I Also it's kind of hypocritical asking who the real Barack Obama is if your husband is palling around with secessionists.

Exactly! This is the point I have been trying to make for some time now. Maybe not necessarily in regards to Palin and AIP, but the fact that if people are gonna spew crap about Obama/Ayers, then they should be prepared to deal with the repercussions of their dealings as well.

[Buford T. Justice]

I do not know the extent of their "involvement" with the organization, butI am surprised that McCain would pick her for vice president knowing of their association.

[TMK9973]

I don't care to be honest.

The race is over. (Yeah - I said it). There will be no come back. Stories like this will continue to divide the country. Look, the McCain camp said what they wanted to do. Obama said when he wanted to do. A Majority of American seem to have decided they would rather do Obama's ideas. Politics doesn't have to be a zero sum game. It's not to late. The more mud we sling now the harder it's going to be to govern. McCain should use the next 3 weeks to have a say in the agenda. Obama should use it to figure out how to win over a % of McCain supporters.

There is no need to pursue this story - It has nothing to do with what is needed as soon as Obama takes office.

[Jumbo]

Yeah, never having been to Alaska, I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on AIP and what the prevalence of this group is throughout Alaska. Not loaded questions, I'm just curious.

In regards to the actual topic, AIP sounds like a pretty radical group. If it is as radical as what I have seen in media reports, I would be interested in learning more about the extent of Todd's "involvement" as well as whether Gov. Palin was just giving political lip-service to this group when she spoke to them or if she truly supported this party.

I read Palin as just being political when I watched that---maybe like Obama was with some, I dunno--although that's fair topic right there--ya see, I don't believe any of these guys are all that diff from politics as usual.

I can tell you there has long been a strong isolationist movement in AK and it takes different forms, including A.I.P. and their beliefs. And I identified to an extent with aspects of the isolationsism idea, personally, just minus any and all “Americas-hate" and bigotry.

That's the problem with most of these groups--the independence thing is often a secondary desire to finding a place where people’s racial bigotry, religious bigotry, and hating on a "too-free and equal" America can be part of a “screened“ social group that keeps “outsiders“ (what we called all people not born in AK) on the outside.

I have sat in at times with many such folks, as a gun enthusiast and outdoors guy all through all my years in Ore/Idaho/Montana/WA. Theri outlooks are often long on ugly and short on worthiness--just as the leftist extremist groups in the sixties were, IMO.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

I think the attempt to link Obama to Ayers as if the two have some sort of common political goal (i.e. terrorist goal) is ridiculous.

I do, however, think this story could be indicative of the hypocrisy of Sarah Palin. I'm not sure what the group stands for, or whether she had any real involvment in it, but is at least questionable... which is what she has accused Obama of.

[Midnight Judges]

I do not know the extent of their "involvement" with the organization, butI am surprised that McCain would pick her for vice president knowing of their association.

Todd was a member for 7 years ending in 2002. Sarah went to several of their meetings. Spoke highly of them within the last 1.5 years while she was Governor.

McCain probably didn't know about this. His weak vetting process was highly criticized by the GOP establishment.

[Jumbo]

I do not know the extent of their "involvement" with the organization, butI am surprised that McCain would pick her for vice president knowing of their association.

My Alaskan "contacts" (when I have been using that phrase in the forum post-Palin I meant three people i still talk to every now and then and more often lately--two males, one female, aged 35-50, two repubs, one dem) have a mantra about how much they can't believe is common knowledge up there not getting translated to the "lower 48." They all talk about how fe people "in the know" were talked to by McCains people prior to announcing her candidacy.

I thought there were tons of reporters up there seaching for stuff but they say "no, not that much."

I don't have time to print everything they say, but it's colorful stuff (not earth-shaking IMO) and I really don't think mccain and his people did all that thorough a job in vetting Sarah, but gambled a bit and early on it looked like a score. While I certainly accpet the character-related component of such matters, I still don't see any crippling stuff in any of these things I hear, compared to more how soemone just feels about her policies and philosophies. But then a lot of the Obama "controversies" don't score heavy with me, either, other than as I just framed it.

All these folks are full of flaws, and I count that srtuff, but it will be other things that are more decisive for me.

[Jumbo]

I don't care to be honest.

The race is over. (Yeah - I said it). There will be no come back. Stories like this will continue to divide the country. Look, the McCain camp said what they wanted to do. Obama said when he wanted to do. A Majority of American seem to have decided they would rather do Obama's ideas. Politics doesn't have to be a zero sum game. It's not to late. The more mud we sling now the harder it's going to be to govern. McCain should use the next 3 weeks to have a say in the agenda. Obama should use it to figure out how to win over a % of McCain supporters.

There is no need to pursue this story - It has nothing to do with what is needed as soon as Obama takes office.

I really identify weith that, too, and share the sentiment. But I also think this from my op:

"The worth or lack of each story will likely do little to change anyone‘s support, yet it will generate much discussion anyway. I don’t think that’s a bad thing in the end."

I can see where some national dialpuge on these matters at any time does serve some useful purpose. But it depends on my mood at the time. :cheers:

[Jumbo]

I did my best to carry an accurate report, but I encourage folks to watch a little of CNN in your viewing and see the follow ups or replays and make sure you check me for accuracy and to experience your own reaction (if so interested).

[Special K]

That's the problem with most of these groups--the independence thing is often a secondary desire to finding a place where people’s racial bigotry, religious bigotry, and hating on a "too-free and equal" America can be part of a “screened“ social group that keeps “outsiders“ (what we called all people not born in AK) on the outside.

I think that hits the nail on the head right there.

I see none of these radical groups as a positive addition to our society exactly for this reason: I think they facilitate a sort of mob-mentality hostility toward those unlike themselves. I hold that opinion of anything radical, whether it be a group or an individual belief.

[Jumbo]

I think that hits the nail on the head right there.

I see none of these radical groups as a positive addition to our society exactly for this reason: I think they facilitate a sort of mob-mentality hostility toward those unlike themselves. I hold that opinion of anything radical, whether it be a group or an individual belief.

Agreed. I think there's a lot of latitude in range as to how far to one side or the other you can go and still be someone who is tied deeply to (what I see at least) as fundamental positive foundation-blocks of what we are as a society in the U.S. of A.

I think even radicalism has it's place under the right circumstances, obviously, per the American Revolution, and to an obviously lesser degree violence-wise, per the civil rights marches and the rebellious active opposition to unjust laws.

This is all where judgment comes into play. And in my judgment, in the U.S.A., there is little room for serious racial, religious, or other-cultural bigotry to be fed, supported, or in way sanctioned by the greater community.

It may be a part of human nature, just like violence, but it is there to be dealt with by group action and agreement. It is our social responsibility to pick sides on such matters.

[The Sisko]

Wow Jumbo. Great combo of news and personal experience. It's certainly food for thought.

I have long had a sneaking suspicion that the reason McCain hasn't attempted to make an issue of the Wright/Obama connection is Palin's connection to this group. I think a gentlemen's agreement was reached about this and both sides have strictly adhered to it due to the possibility of MAD.

Your post has only strengthened that view in my mind. Either way, given what you've posted and the story on CNN, I don't think we have to worry much about a future Palin presidency after all.

[Jumbo]

Wow Jumbo. Great combo of news and personal experience. It's certainly food for thought.

I have long had a sneaking suspicion that the reason McCain hasn't attempted to make an issue of the Wright/Obama connection is Palin's connection to this group. I think a gentlemen's agreement was reached about this and both sides have strictly adhered to it due to the possibility of MAD.

Your post has only strengthened that view in my mind. Either way, given what you've posted and the story on CNN, I don't think we have to worry much about a future Palin presidency after all.

I haven't even been transmitting the Palin-related reigious beliefs/comments from past and recent church affiliation that they have been telling me (along with the minor references to such I've seen in national news). The lady friend (a repub) went to the same church for awhile in Wasilla. And I've avoided that for several reasons, like preserving my sanity for instance .

But colorful it is, and there seems to have been much that has not made it to the general awareness. The guy who was a regular reproter on Sarah for two years on the Anchorage daily news and used to have almost daily access to her offcie and weekly access to her if needed says he hasn't has a call returned for over a month. Again, as to how much all of this would matter vote-wise, I would speculate little, but its all media dynamics and candidate material I take note of, and I think it would make good grist for the mill for those who like to analyze how political machines work.

[The Sisko]

The really interesting thing to me is that the typical response about this is "Well, he's Sarah's husband and he's not the candidate." However, if you look at the history of her administration in AK, Todd was given a lot of access and input to the political process. I think it would be safe to assume the same would hold true in a Palin Vice Presidency which puts his membership in this group in an entirely different light.

[Jumbo]

The really interesting thing to me is that the typical response about this is "Well, he's Sarah's husband and he's not the candidate." However, if you look at the history of her administration in AK, Todd was given a lot of access and input to the political process. I think it would be safe to assume the same would hold true in a Palin Vice Presidency which puts his membership in this group in an entirely different light.

Like I say, these guys from AK are having quite the party wondering if all kinds of little juicy tidbits (but not "big-deal" stuff) about the Palins will get into the news...I think they're a little giddy from having media attention, period. I remember when Nixon chose Wally Hickle for SecInt. Wild times.

BTW, one theme I spotted early on, I think its noteworthy interest-wise (and I really think I see it now that I can observer her) is there were many folks in AK who believe that Sarah has a serious appetite for the spotlight in general and political influence in particular, and this full steam ahead with no trepidation about her own qualifications and quickness to go on the attack is really reminding the local folks of why she's was nicknamed barracuda. It showed in her political ambition as they came to fruition in Ak.

Most of this (not the A.I.P stuff though) is all as just small-talk/character-personality stuff as opposed to seriously mattering to me. She's an unknown to most, so this is interesting stuff about someone who may be the legendary "heartbeat away." I've been sitting on various comments for weeks (pretty fairly and objectively presented to me, I‘d say) and only if I heard something I thought was really significant would I say so in a thread.

She is very much liked up there by many, even among those who have raised eyebrows about some of her supposed behaviors. She also has some very respected opposition and well-thought-of long-time Alaskans who are not very smitten by some of her traits. I think it’s all interesting since I know from living there how separated you feel from the “lower 48” after living there for years, \and yet now the state is now entwined with the “lower 48” as deeply as can be with one of “our own” potentially sitting in the white house “a heartbeat away.”

[The Sisko]

Amazing. If you ever get the time or inclination, please feel free to PM me some of the juicy tidbits. IIRC, aren't you in Utah or Idaho? If so, if I'm ever out that way again, I'd love to buy you a Polygamy Porter and talk for a bit.

[Jumbo]

Amazing. If you ever get the time or inclination, please feel free to PM me some of the juicy tidbits. IIRC, aren't you in Utah or Idaho? If so, if I'm ever out that way again, I'd love to buy you a Polygamy Porter and talk for a bit.

I was supposed to be in ATL this week for work. I really wanted to go. . There's this brunette making the trip...

I am in WA state---the gorgeous Puget Sound area and close to the Emerald City.

And there are great micro-breweries in WA...some of the best.

[Jumbo]

Shoulda done this earlier--funny how this stuff hasn't made it more into the media. Now as I went over some of this, like link 18 at the bottom and other material, I do wonder why this isn't getting as much play as Ayers.

A.I.P. Official Website

Main page:

http://www.akip.org/index.html

Palin video:

http://www.akip.org/conv08.html

From "Goals" page:

"Until we as Alaskans receive our Ultimate Goal, the AIP will continue to strive to make Alaska a better place to live with less government interference in our everyday lives."

From Q & A Page:

"Q: What is the Alaskan Independence Party?

A: An Alaskan political party whose members advocate a range of solutions to the conflicts between federal and local authority; from advocacy for state's rights, through a return to territorial status, all the way to complete independence and nationhood status for Alaska."

Founder Joe Vogler's (1913-1993) quote on intro page

http://www.akip.org/introduction.html

"I'm an Alaskan, not an American. I've got no use for America or her damned institutions."

Joe Vogler

From link the "issues" page:

Statehood

"Please see the goal of the AIP.

Alaska has never been an equal state.

Feds create and enforce laws which are only in effect in Alaska

Many in the AIP support INDEPENDENCE. Some support COMMONWEALTH and others support STATEHOOD.

It is the AIPs wish to get a true plebecite according to international law, only legal Alaskan citizens, it is in the language of the people, federal military and their dependants are not legal citizens and will not be allowed to vote in this plebescite"

From link on "issues" page:

"Federal Elections

The AIP has never supported a Presidential candidate.

We have been courted and requested by numerous candidates in the past who wish to use our party as a vehicle to get on the ballot. We are Not RENT A PARTY and will not support a candidate who treats us as such.

We have had candidates in the past who chose to run for US Congress and US Senator. The AIP has requested these individuals to run for a local ALASKA office."

A page on a site with recordings of Joe Volger:

http://uaf-db.uaf.edu/jukebox/yuch/htm/jvog.htm

Link #18

Joe, speaking on how he and his wife have $300,000 and 8 years tied up in land that federal lawas prevent him from mining like he wants to says: "The fires of hell are frozen glaciers compared to my hatred of the American government and I won't be buried under their damn flag..."

BTW, I'm sure many of you will see how many Americans, even of a broad political spectrum, could find a number general concepts espoused by the A.I.P here that are quite agreeable.

To a much lesser extent, but to make the point, I remember reading a lot of statements I found some agreement with in an exercise many years ago, and when the source was revealed it was literature from the Black Panther party and the Weatherman Underground, I was not a happy camper.

That did not set well with me, I was very opposed to those groups and felt them criminal in their violence. Yet it happened. I assume I don't need to say such an event did not make me any more forgiving of the majority of the actions and beliefs I found/still find totally unacceptable, in the strongest manner, associated with those organizations, but the point is worth making.

But for now, I am thinking this A.I.P./Palins story has considerably more legs/meat to it then I previously thought and should probably get as much attention as Rev. Wright did previously or Ayers is getting now (and I think the Ayers questions are valid).. :2cents:

addendum: from wiki on Vogler's death--

Disappearance and death

Vogler disappeared under suspicious circumstances in May 1993[4], just weeks before he was scheduled to give a speech to the United Nations on Alaskan independence, sponsored by the government of Iran.[5][6] Convicted thief Manfried West confessed to having murdered Vogler the following year in what he described as a plastic explosives sale gone bad.[4] Vogler's remains were discovered in a gravel pit east of Fairbanks in October 1994 following an anonymous tip.[4] They had been wrapped in a blue tarp secured with duct tape and were identified through fingerprint analysis.[4]

In the opinion of AIP Chair Lynette Clark and other AIP leaders, however, Vogler's death reflected more than a dispute with West. Clark has stated, "He was executed."[7] She notes that Vogler was about to appear before the United Nations to address the issue of Alaskan independence: "The United States government would have been deeply embarrassed. And we can't have that, can we?"[7]

Vogler was buried in Dawson City, Yukon Territory, Canada, fulfulling his wish that he not be buried under the American flag. His second wife, Doris, who died of cancer in January 1992, is buried next to him.

As noted earlier in the thread, Lynette Clark is the current head of the A.I.P and she was the one who called into CNN after Rick Sanchez's report on the A.I.P. to say how "jazzed" her group had been "to have Sarah's support."

[Smoot Point Really]

Who did the AIP bomb and how is this remotely similar to William Ayers? They have radical ideas, but you don't see Palin specifically endorsing those ideas that are radical and they certainly haven't endorsed her. Barack Obama's radical friends will be voting for him.

[Veretax]

Bah she spoke via remote at their convention, and she said nothing of any controversial nature. I fail to see how any of this truly matters.

By the way we aren't communist, you have a right to peaceably assemble in this country, paid for with the blood of thousands upon thousands of american soldiers.

[Prosperity]

Who did the AIP bomb and how is this remotely similar to William Ayers? They have radical ideas, but you don't see Palin specifically endorsing those ideas that are radical and they certainly haven't endorsed her. Barack Obama's radical friends will be voting for him.

really, guy? You don't think her husband is going to be voting for her? Along the rest of the group that is jazzed about her support? I mean you can't be that dense, can you? And the leader of the group supposedly died in a "plastic explosives deal gone wrong." Does he need plastic explosives to kill moose? Not to mention the group has ties to Iran's government.

[Jumbo]

Bah she spoke via remote at their convention, and she said nothing of any controversial nature. I fail to see how any of this truly matters.

By the way we aren't communist, you have a right to peaceably assemble in this country, paid for with the blood of thousands upon thousands of american soldiers.

As far as my stance goes, I am mainly finding this interesting, but not earth-shaking by any means. I think mainly she's just a politician, maverickyness aside. Her husband was an active member for years.

For anyone who read carefully and can comprehend (not aiming this at you, just noting it generally), I have pretty well expressed where I place this, other thread items, and similar-in-type Obama-related topics in complete context.

Per your second paragraph, and this is aimed at you, while I poined out there was much there on the A.I.P. site I thought many of us could agree with, I found it (your second paragraph) to be singularly pointless and even idiotic. Not really much to expand on there.