1999 TO 2008 A lesson in ownership

[skins4eva]

Vinny has said several times he has curbed Snyder when it comes to football decisions. Vinny actually stopped Dan from giving up the farm to get Keyshawn Johnson, as well as more recently Tedd Ginn Jr. Part of Vinny's rep was that he became one of the fall guys from the 49ers when he was fired. Under Vinny they brought in TO, Bryant Young, and a bunch of other good players. The team even won a Superbowl while Vinny was the head of the college scouting department. How have the 49ers been doing since Vinny left? I just happen to think it is more than just coincidence that the second Snyder gives control to Vinny, instead of the head coach, we have 10 draft picks stockpiled and they all make the team, and we have a good offseason. Sadly, only time will tell if Vinny was a success with his draft.

The 49ers dynasties, in all fairness, were built long before Vinny ever set foot in San Francisco--they were built by Carmen Policy and Bill Walsh. Did Vinny contribute some good picks toward the end? Yes, but let's not fool ourselves and give Vinny the credit for the 49ers dynasty.

Here's the link to the thread about Vinny's "success" in the draft: http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?t=194590

In terms of the draft this year, what we saw was a step in the right direction. This is true. But, I've started threads (I'll see if I can find the link) evaluating Vinny's performance as a GM, draft selector through the years. One trend you'll notice immediately is a lack of Defensive and Offensive line picks in the early rounds of the draft. That's disturbing because it shows that he puts the emphasis in the wrong place (skill position players) when trying to build a team. The emphasis must be on establishing quality depth on both sides of the line, good/great lines make up for a ton of problems in other areas whereas bad line play will make every other position look bad as well.

As far as Snyder relinquishing control, I still think that anyone who thinks Dan isn't intimately involved in every single decision this team makes is fooling themselves. Dan had the head coaching interviewees sleep over at his home? Does that sound like a man who has relinquished control or isn't intimately invovled? Sometimes, if you want something to succeed, you must adopt a dispassionate approach, which is more conducive to logical and effective analysis. Snyder's greatest weakness as an owner is his passion as a fan and his inability to remove his passion to win now from the long-term decision making/careful planning and patience it takes to build a successful franchise.

[ttr77]

Dan had the head coaching interviewees sleep over at his home? Does that sound like a man who has relinquished control or isn't intimately invovled?

I've always wondered if any of the interviewees noticed the eyes in the wall painting moving.

Although, I guess if they were Vinny's eyes, they'd certainly notice.

[fansince62]

Snyder's greatest weakness as an owner is his passion as a fan and his inability to remove his passion to win now from the long-term decision making/careful planning and patience it takes to build a successful franchise.

more directly...I don't think he is blessed with the "it"...whatever that might be.....that turns circumstance into good fortune. he just doesn't appear to have that intuitive insight/feel/leadership that translates desire into football results.

[elkabong82]

I don't think you really know what context means.

define:context

discourse that surrounds a language unit and helps to determine its interpretation

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3Acontext

For example, when you said:

some of you complain about the "revolving door of coaches" eventhough Zorn is the 4th HC Snyder has hired since owning the team.

One can determine from the context of your statement that you did not think a "revolving door of coaches" was a valid complaint because Zorn is just the 4th coach Snyder has hired.

Jesus, do you really do this semantics BS just to build your post count up or something?

I'll break it down real simple for you, and then I'm done with you because I'd actually like to continue discussing the subject at hand, instead of letting you catch me up in one of your hissy fits that never accomplish anything.

The OP used revolving door in the context that it is all Snyder's fault, I kept within that context and simply stated that Zorn is only the 4th HC Snyder has actually hired. I will admit that I could have expressed it a little clearer, but what I meant by it was that the revolving door comment doesn't work in the context the OP used. I re-explained what I meant when you responded to me. However, instead of simply letting it go, and discussing any other points I made, you have decided to continually harp on it. Whether it's because you still can't understand me, or it's because you are trying to attack me to make yourself feel better, either way it's pathetic.

[skins4eva]

more directly...I don't think he is blessed with the "it"...whatever that might be.....that turns circumstance into good fortune. he just doesn't appear to have that intuitive insight/feel/leadership that translates desire into football results.

I have a feeling that intuition is not one of his strengths. He seems much more concerned with appearences and how he is perceived---which smacks of insecurity...hence the requirement that all subjects refer to him as Mr. Snyder, etc.

[fansince62]

norval robiski spurrier schott gibbs zorn

- 6 coaches employed

- 5 coaches hired

let's go with 4. you think a new HC every 2.25 years is a good thing? speaking of "stats".........it has been a revolving door. in fact, that has probably been the greatest problem over all. reardless of the source....it happened/is happening during Dan's ownership. let's hope Zorn merits a stay of execution that lasts a minium of 4 yrs

[FrFan]

I don't agree with that argument either. My issue was with timeframe. Everyone was going off of the 9 years Snyder has owned the team. However, plenty of teams have done far worse than us, over longer stretches. Yet that gets glossed over in favor of the championship game stat, eventhough it is refuted by the previous post I just mentioned.

I think we must only compare us to the best teams, that's one step to get better.

[Shilsu]

Jesus, do you really do this semantics BS just to build your post count up or something?

I'll break it down real simple for you, and then I'm done with you because I'd actually like to continue discussing the subject at hand, instead of letting you catch me up in one of your hissy fits that never accomplish anything.

The OP used revolving door in the context that it is all Snyder's fault, I kept within that context and simply stated that Zorn is only the 4th HC Snyder has actually hired. I will admit that I could have expressed it a little clearer, but what I meant by it was that the revolving door comment doesn't work in the context the OP used. I re-explained what I meant when you responded to me. However, instead of simply letting it go, and discussing any other points I made, you have decided to continually harp on it. Whether it's because you still can't understand me, or it's because you are trying to attack me to make yourself feel better, either way it's pathetic.

It's still not very clear as your statement is now:

"Zorn is only the 4th HC Snyder has actually hired."

What do you mean, only?

[skins4eva]

It's still not very clear as your statement is now:

"Zorn is only the 4th HC Snyder has actually hired."

What do you mean, only?

Enough--pm him with all your ridiculous analysis. No one cares.

[tex]

Dan had the head coaching interviewees sleep over at his home?

that whole sleepover thing kinda creeped me out some. like something right out of the twilight zone. weird.

[fansince62]

that whole sleepover thing kinda creeped me out some. like something right out of the twilight zone. weird.

wonder if they had pillow fights........

j/k.......dan is making an effort. no one can begrudge him that. it's just that the results just aren't there.

[skins4eva]

that whole sleepover thing kinda creeped me out some. like something right out of the twilight zone. weird.

It's beyond weird and it should tell us a few things about Snyder:

1) He's obviously a complete control freak;

2) He's insecure and wants people to be impressed by his wealth;

3) He thinks his wealth gives him carte blanche to do whatever he wants

If an owner insisted that you sleep over at his home, would you take the job? Wouldn't it make you seriously question what you were getting into?

[elkabong82]

The 49ers dynasties, in all fairness, were built long before Vinny ever set foot in San Francisco--they were built by Carmen Policy and Bill Walsh. Did Vinny contribute some good picks toward the end? Yes, but let's not fool ourselves and give Vinny the credit for the 49ers dynasty.

In terms of the draft this year, what we saw was a step in the right direction. This is true. But, I've started threads (I'll see if I can find the link) evaluating Vinny's performance as a GM, draft selector through the years. One trend you'll notice immediately is a lack of Defensive and Offensive line picks in the early rounds of the draft. That's disturbing because it shows that he puts the emphasis in the wrong place (skill position players) when trying to build a team. The emphasis must be on establishing quality depth on both sides of the line, good/great lines make up for a ton of problems in other areas whereas bad line play will make every other position look bad as well.

As far as Snyder relinquishing control, I still think that anyone who thinks Dan isn't intimately involved in every single decision this team makes is fooling themselves. Dan had the head coaching interviewees sleep over at his home? Does that sound like a man who has relinquished control or isn't intimately invovled? Sometimes, if you want something to succeed, you must adopt a dispassionate approach, which is more conducive to logical and effective analysis. Snyder's greatest weakness as an owner is his passion as a fan and his inability to remove his passion to win now from the long-term decision making/careful planning and patience it takes to build a successful franchise.

Whoa, whoa whoa. I didn't give Vinny credit for the 49ers dynasties. I gave him credit for bringing in players that contributed, in some cases greatly, to the 49ers winning A superbowl, not many.

Until this year, you do need to keep in mind that Vinny didn't have the power and control he has now. Like I said in my other response to you, I fault Snyder with giving too much control to his head coaches. Vinny was, essentially, drafting the best guys he could at the positions the head coach wanted.

Also keep in mind that while we haven't drafted a ton of OL and DL, we have brought plenty in, and we have had good results with those additions, although there have been bad results as well. We drafted Samuels and Jansen in 2000 and 1999 respectively. We drafted Dockery in 2003. They all were 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks respectively. A 3rd rounder isn't considered an "early pick" but there are lots of good OL to be found there. We actually repeated that this year with Rinehart. We brought in Randy Thomas, who has done well, despite 2 season-ending injuries. We've had one of the best rushing units behind the OL since Gibbs came back. We lost Dock cuz the Bills gave him a ridiculous contract, so we brought in Kendall, a stop-gap solution, and we immediately drafted his replacement this draft.

On DL, we actually have had a top 10 D pretty regularly since Snyder took over, so I can't fault them on their methods there, eventhough it hasn't always panned out. So I wouldn't say that we've ignored DL or OL, more like we have favored FA to solve those situations, moreso with DL than OL. I'm of the mind that if it works it works, but I completely understand people wishing we had looked to the draft more. Again though, the second Vinny is in charge of the draft without having to pander coahes, he actually makes real good moves. I think he drafted well under Gibbs also.

However, I think the issue we really have to look at is philosophy and team needs. Just to take a quick look at this draft class, we have an OL that touts a great run game almost every season, and we have a D that is top 10 most every season. We bring in a new pass attack, so Vinny trades down and gives JC some potential long-term weapons. Then we draft an OL to replace Kendall down the road, and we actually waited on it instead of getting caught up in the 1st round run on OL. Even Tryon, IMO, was a long term move given Springs age and the health issues of Rogers and Smoot.

The fact we kept 6 DEs shows me a stressing of the importance of the lines. Also, don't forget we have another young guy with potential in Geisenger who unseated Wade, and Heyer is starting over Jansen now, so I do see the youth movement hitting the OL. So while we only saw 1 OL and 1 DL drafted, it does appear, to me anyways, the team is stressing the OL and DL more than they have in the past. Another issue I think may have had something to do with it was complacency. Until age started affecting parts of the OL last season, the group had been solid, even allowing Betts to rush for 1100+ in 9 games. We did draft some young guys, but they never panned out. While it certainly would have helped the team to draft a young OL earlier in a draft or 2, I can understand them wanting to address more immediate needs.

And of course, the biggest problem has been simply a lack of draft picks. Whether it was all Snyder's fault stressing a win now mentality, whether it was the coaches getting in Vinny's ear to get player X no matter what, it overall didn't work out for us. I was actually glad about the Taylor trade, simply because for the first time in a while we were trading a draft pick out of need, instead of want. (Kendall in '07 could go under this category as well).

Snyder of course is going to be involved with the head coach hire. What owner isn't at least somewhat involved in that decision? As far as the draft, and day to day football operations, the coaches were given full control. It was one of the stipulations when Gibbs came back, it's the reason the Skins looked like the Gators under Spurrier.

[Shilsu]

It's beyond weird and it should tell us a few things about Snyder:

1) He's obviously a complete control freak;

2) He's insecure and wants people to be impressed by his wealth;

3) He thinks his wealth gives him carte blanche to do whatever he wants

If an owner insisted that you sleep over at his home, would you take the job? Wouldn't it make you seriously question what you were getting into?

Um, there was a recent article about how the promotion of Greg Blache went down.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/27/AR2008082703596.html?hpid=topnews&sid=ST2008082703806&s_pos=

The topic of conversation at the dinner party essentially became, Greg Is Finally Getting Out and Having Time to Hunt and Spend with Family. The couple arrived home at 10:30 that evening, feeling their future was set -- until the phone rang at 12:30 a.m. and a groggy Blache answered.

It was Vinny Cerrato, the general manager.

"Hey, Dan wants to talk to you," Cerrato said.

"I'll be back in the office on Monday," Blache replied.

"No, Dan needs to talk to you tomorrow."

"Vin, I'm in Wisconsin. I can't get back."

Snyder got on the phone.

"Hey, I need to talk to you. Come over to my house, we're eating dinner tomorrow. I'll send a plane. What's the closest airport?

"Rhinelander, Wisconsin."

"Look, he's honest, he's real and he's got a heart nobody understands. He sold me on not having a Super Bowl ring and being there for the players and coaches. For me to come back and have a chance to get him a ring and help the players get a ring is a mission of mine and it's something that appealed to me. He didn't appeal to my mercenary side at all -- at all. He went strictly to the things that emotionally touched me."

Snyder also connected with the Blache who had grown up in the outdoors of Louisiana, the part of him that has photos of a mammoth 12-point elk in his office and of Blache in the snow, straddling a buffalo he had hunted and killed.

That night the owner handed Blache "a beautiful shotgun -- a piece of art," he said -- a Beretta over-and-under -- the Lamborghini of firearms.

"What if I retire?"

" 'If you retire, it's a retirement present,' " Snyder said. " 'If you come, it's a present.' "

Blache said his eyes welled up with tears.

"He knew me," he said. Pausing between each word, enunciating, Blache again said, "He knew me.

"The guy's a billionaire for a reason. He knew what touched me. And he gave it to me no strings attached."

Blache signed the contract that evening, effectively taking the job his friend would not be relieved of until the next morning.

[elkabong82]

It's beyond weird and it should tell us a few things about Snyder:

1) He's obviously a complete control freak;

2) He's insecure and wants people to be impressed by his wealth;

3) He thinks his wealth gives him carte blanche to do whatever he wants

If an owner insisted that you sleep over at his home, would you take the job? Wouldn't it make you seriously question what you were getting into?

That is one way to interpet it. Another way is Snyder wanted the coaching cnadidates to feel comfortable and not inconvenienced. Having them over to his house (technically his guest house in the back, separate from his own) may be outside of the box to you, but is it really any different from coaches having players over to their house? I'd stick with the current discussions about things we know, instead of delving into assumptions on Snyder's character. It makes it look like you are more agenda-driven than actually interested in conversation, which I already know is not the case given our convo in this thread.

[elkabong82]

Whoa, Shilsu posted something positive about Snyder? Now I really have seen everything. That was a good article to post, btw. I hadn't read it before, but it's articles like that which give you an inside peak at the man, not the assumptions made by biased-driven members of the media.

[skins4eva]

That is one way to interpet it. Another way is Snyder wanted the coaching cnadidates to feel comfortable and not inconvenienced. Having them over to his house (technically his guest house in the back, separate from his own) may be outside of the box to you, but is it really any different from coaches having players over to their house? I'd stick with the current discussions about things we know, instead of delving into assumptions on Snyder's character. It makes it look like you are more agenda-driven than actually interested in conversation, which I already know is not the case given our convo in this thread.

Good post...I appreciate the constructive criticism. I'm not agenda driven, but it's very difficult for me to compartmentalize my dislike for Snyder. I live in a 600 square foot apartment in Manhattan, so the idea of a guest house wasn't on my radar. I just can't shake the feeling I get that he is an anathema to this franchise.

[elkabong82]

Good post...I appreciate the constructive criticism. I'm not agenda driven, but it's very difficult for me to compartmentalize my dislike for Snyder. I live in a 600 square foot apartment in Manhattan, so the idea of a guest house wasn't on my radar. I just can't shake the feeling I get that he is an anathema to this franchise.

I understand dislike for Snyder, and any coach or player, so long as the tone and language are rational, and the argument well-supported. I may not necessarily agree, but I will understand.

The reason I don't dislike Snyder is simply because in him I see a fellow Skins fan doing everything he can to make this team better. I see a guy who has finally checked his desire and impatience for a consistent winner, and gone with a long-term approach as most of the succesful teams in the NFL already have. I see the majority of the fanbase ask for years for it to happen, only to show they are the ones who haven't changed, as exhibited by the ES faithful after the Giants loss. In other words, I see at least a little bit of Snyder in each Skins fan, and I do see an owner who is willing to, or has begun to, change. And that is something rare in an owner.

I guess my only advice to cope with the dislike of Snyder is to remember he's cheering just as loud as you and I for the same team each Sunday.

[ttr77]

That is one way to interpet it. Another way is Snyder wanted the coaching cnadidates to feel comfortable and not inconvenienced. Having them over to his house (technically his guest house in the back, separate from his own) may be outside of the box to you, but is it really any different from coaches having players over to their house?

Personally, I would never stay over in a potential employer's house, regardless if it was a guest house. The Redskins put potential free agents up at the Hyatt in Reston Town Center. And the players they bring in usually have more options than the potential coach did. It's just weird to me.

[elkabong82]

Personally, I would never stay over in a potential employer's house, regardless if it was a guest house. The Redskins put potential free agents up at the Hyatt in Reston Town Center. And the players they bring in usually have more options than the potential coach did. It's just weird to me.

Football is a different job than your typical employer's jobs though. It may seem weird to you, but at the very least Blache was touched by the level of humanity there, and apparently it was enough to coax Gibbs back as well.

It's Snyder's style, and while it may seem weird to you, I didn't see any disparaging remarks from the media about it (which is odd for them) and it certainly has won coaches over. People have different methods, and I'd say that given Snyder is a multi-millionaire and runs one of the most financially succesful sports orgs. in the world (despite the overall record of that club) his methods may not be all that crazy.

[ttr77]

Football is a different job than your typical employer's jobs though. It may seem weird to you, but at the very least Blache was touched by the level of humanity there, and apparently it was enough to coax Gibbs back as well.

It's Snyder's style, and while it may seem weird to you, I didn't see any disparaging remarks from the media about it (which is odd for them) and it certainly has won coaches over. People have different methods, and I'd say that given Snyder is a multi-millionaire and runs one of the most financially succesful sports orgs. in the world (despite the overall record of that club) his methods may not be all that crazy.

That's all fine...but he hired Gibbs in North Carolina, not in his guest house. And I think the money he offers potential coaches plays an integral role in the outcome.

[theTruthTeller]

I'm not a huge Snyder fan, but I believe that he really wants to win. Not for his ego, but as a fan. Maybe this has caused him at times to have a win now mentality. Maybe its caused him to overrate the quality of his players and expect better results. I guess that makes him like almost everyone on ES. In August, Bubba listed a bunch of ratings of players at each position. And in every case, the ratings were slammed as biased against the Skins. But if you like at the ratings as a whole, the give you a picture of a Skins team which is good, but not SB-contending great. Which is pretty much in line with how the team has played over the last few years.

I think if someone put up a poll asking whether the Skins should win more than other teams because they were an elite franchise, there would be overwhelming support of the proposition. And pre-salary cap, that was probably the case. But today it's a different story. With the exception of the Patriots, teams have improved mostly as a result of stinking long enough to stockpile draft picks, then make a run. Or alternatively, you can hit a lucky streak and pick up starters for cheap, like Dallas and NE have done. And bad luck, like losing the best safety in football, tends to be amplified. Its hard to make up for losing a star player before his time.

The bottom line is that over time, everyone will be mediocre, even the Patriots. Some teams will jump back and forth between greatness and stinking, others will have long streaks of mediocrity, as have the Skins lately. While I think most people here would gladly accept three 4-12 seasons for a legit shot that the SB in the fourth, if it were presented as a long term proposition, the truth is that most people on ES can't accept a single loss to the SB champs. Its a short term mentality that drives the fans and which drives Snyder as well. I can't say that makes him a bad owner. Could someone who thinks Snyder is a really bad owner make a list of really good owners?

[texasthunder]

Football is a different job than your typical employer's jobs though. It may seem weird to you, but at the very least Blache was touched by the level of humanity there, and apparently it was enough to coax Gibbs back as well.

It's Snyder's style, and while it may seem weird to you, I didn't see any disparaging remarks from the media about it (which is odd for them) and it certainly has won coaches over. People have different methods, and I'd say that given Snyder is a multi-millionaire and runs one of the most financially succesful sports orgs. in the world (despite the overall record of that club) his methods may not be all that crazy.

Not to mention that Snyder is known for all night and lengthy interviews. And as Joe Gibbs said at his retirement, "Dan Snyder is the only person who can keep up with me in terms of hours worked".

I think those kind of things have a lot to do with potential coaches spending the night.

[Spartacus87]

Ah...looking at total yards as a sign of progress, huh? So right back at ya.

not good enough for you?

how about scoring offense:

2005- 13th

2006- 20th

2007- 18th

Impressive.

Or passing offense:

2005- 21st

2006- 21st

2007- 14th

Rushing?

2005- 7th

2006- 4th

2007- 12th

Running the ball is the only thing we've been able to do respectably the past three years, and that's actually what Zorn is trying to keep exactly the same. But our passing game and our offense as a whole has been very mediocre. To act like we didn't need some new kind of direction in our offense just isn't right.

[ttr77]

not good enough for you?

how about scoring offense:

2005- 13th

2006- 20th

2007- 18th

Impressive.

Or passing offense:

2005- 21st

2006- 21st

2007- 14th

Rushing?

2005- 7th

2006- 4th

2007- 12th

Running the ball is the only thing we've been able to do respectably the past three years, and that's actually what Zorn is trying to keep exactly the same. But our passing game and our offense as a whole has been very mediocre. To act like we didn't need some new kind of direction in our offense just isn't right.

So you are proposing that Zorn/Smith > Gibbs/Saunders? Interesting theory. I'll believe it when I see it.