1999 TO 2008 A lesson in ownership

[texasthunder]

:mad:

I'm mad as HELL too!

I'm just not sure who or what to blame it on:(

Hey you got Palin, what can you be mad about. :laugh:

[ttr77]

And we won 3 before that. It's already been shown here the teams that are good right now, and the stretches of futility they had. Why has that been ignored in favor of this? The Steeler's didn't do jack after Bradshaw until 1995. And that was still with the Rooney's.

If we're going back that far, let's just say that they have won 5 Super Bowls to the Skins' 3. It's irrelevant.

My point is that this whole 'We're better than the Cowboys since we've won a playoff game more recently than they have' argument is silly, and just makes our fanbase look kinda ignorant (no offense).

[texasthunder]

And until he succeeds, criticism is justified.

And so based on how you percieve the past, you are only going to give him one game to prove success, or you will level him with criticim ??

[elkabong82]

Hey elkabong82. I've got a serious question for you.

Is English your second language?

If so, let me know. Maybe then I'd be more understanding of your ridiculously senseless posts.

A revolving door implies a revolving door. Not the drivel you just posted.

In another thread, you went off on a poster for saying Kelly and Thomas were not the two most NFL ready receivers drafted because there was only one game to go by. NFL ready means who can contribute the most the earliest, not whatever dumb definition you have for it.

Either way, let me know.

I've got a question for you: Why does it always come down to personal attacks with you? Aren't you tired of getting banned by now? Is it really that difficult for you to stick to the subject?

I know you obviously can't grasp simple concepts, given you can't even comprehend what I was saying about the revolving door remark being used to put fault solely on Snyder for the coaching turnover, when that isn't the case.

And once again you drag up other threads to divert away from the topic at hand. If Thomas pulls in 8 receptions for 100 yards and a TD against the Saints, will he be NFL ready then? Kelly hasn't stepped foot on the field, so how do we know he is NFL ready? Don't call my definition dumb, especially when the term "NFL ready" is completely subjective. You care to mention in that thread they were saying Jackson and Royal are NFL ready because they did well against 2 of the worst defenses in the league from last season?

But once again I'm sure you'll prove my point by attacking me and ignoring most of what I've said. I don't mind though. It just makes you look more infantile with each petty attack, and further reveals your incompetence with grasping even the simplest of concepts, not to mention it builds my post count.

[maskedsuperstar]

Yet they've won 3 Super Bowls in less time than the Skins have taken to win 3 playoff games. Sorry...I hate the Cowboys as much as anyone, but this 'the Cowboys are worse!' argument is getting tiresome, and you won't find anyone outside of this board that believes it.

The argument is getting tiresome. And so is the ****ing and whining.

One thing is for sure, if the Skins turn the ship around, you'll be back on the bandwagon. You'll be so far up the Skins behind, I personally will have to tie a rope around your feet. Tie the other end to a pick up truck and pull you out.

[ttr77]

And so based on how you percieve the past, you are only going to give him one game to prove success, or you will level him with criticim ??

My criticism goes much further back than last Thursday, and is based on several years of evidence. As I said, until his methods prove successful, he will be criticized. As of yet, he has still not found that success.

[ntotoro]

We didn't scuttle the entire offense. We scuttled the passing game. It's generalizations like these that keep getting said enough times that it becomes fact when it's not the case.

Frankly, I don't care what Zorn says in interviews. He needs to kindly explain how the run game can be the same and effective when the passing game is starting all over with a QB who has shown he may not mentally be pro material. Stick 8 up-front and our run game is doomed. Words only go so far.

[Shilsu]

I've got a question for you: Why does it always come down to personal attacks with you? Aren't you tired of getting banned by now? Is it really that difficult for you to stick to the subject?

I know you obviously can't grasp simple concepts, given you can't even comprehend what I was saying about the revolving door remark being used to put fault solely on Snyder for the coaching turnover, when that isn't the case.

And once again you drag up other threads to divert away from the topic at hand. If Thomas pulls in 8 receptions for 100 yards and a TD against the Saints, will he be NFL ready then? Kelly hasn't stepped foot on the field, so how do we know he is NFL ready? Don't call my definition dumb, especially when the term "NFL ready" is completely subjective. You care to mention in that thread they were saying Jackson and Royal are NFL ready because they did well against 2 of the worst defenses in the league from last season?

But once again I'm sure you'll prove my point by attacking me and ignoring most of what I've said. I don't mind though. It just makes you look more infantile with each petty attack, and further reveals your incompetence with grasping even the simplest of concepts, not to mention it builds my post count.

It doesn't matter if the revolving door comment is being used to put blame on Snyder or not, because your original statement was that Zorn is only the 4th coaching hire in 9 years, thus implying it isn't really a revolving door.

But for real, my question about English being your second language was a serious inquiry because it seems like every thread where I end up responding to you ends up devolving into me teaching you the English language.

define:ready

completely prepared or in condition for immediate action or use or progress

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:ready&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title

[elkabong82]

If we're going back that far, let's just say that they have won 5 Super Bowls to the Skins' 3. It's irrelevant.

My point is that this whole 'We're better than the Cowboys since we've won a playoff game more recently than they have' argument is silly, and just makes our fanbase look kinda ignorant (no offense).

I don't agree with that argument either. My issue was with timeframe. Everyone was going off of the 9 years Snyder has owned the team. However, plenty of teams have done far worse than us, over longer stretches. Yet that gets glossed over in favor of the championship game stat, eventhough it is refuted by the previous post I just mentioned. You, from what I could tell, supported that stat about conference championship games, but when it was mentioned the Cowboys should be on the list you went back 6 years further to encompass all 3 of the Cowboy's most recent Superbowls. That is why I said we won 3 before them, because if you can go 6 years back, then why can't I go further back? That was my issue, the timeline, nothing more.

If I wanted to, and I've mentioned this in another thread, I can point out that under 1/3 of NFL teams have made the playoffs twice in the last 3 seasons, but the Skins are a part of that minority. It's all relative. Part of me believes that even if the Skins do win a Superbowl under Snyder, it won't stop or better things.

[ntotoro]

And do you really believe that if by some miracle Williams had been made head coach, and kept Saunders as OC, that we would keep on winning ??

Personally, I thought it was Gibbs that kept the team way too tense to begin with and certainly didn't help us against teams like the Raiders. When Saunders finally got his way with the Offense, we improved with the ball. Was that a combination of Saunders getting Collins in there and being able to call the plays himself? I don't know. I do know that there was way too much confusion with both Gibbs and Saunders in there.

What surmises Gibbs V2.0 to me is the Jets game last year where he goes into the PC relieved we won while everyone else is wondering why he's so excited to have barely beaten a team that shouldn't have even been close to winning that game. I felt if he wasn't so hands-on, we wouldn't have been in that hole to begin with.

[ttr77]

The argument is getting tiresome. And so is the ****ing and whining.

One thing is for sure, if the Skins turn the ship around, you'll be back on the bandwagon. You'll be so far up the Skins behind, I personally will have to tie a rope around your feet. Tie the other end to a pick up truck and pull you out.

I'm not even sure what this means...but ok.

But your bandwagon needs a tuneup.

[maskedsuperstar]

Frankly, I don't care what Zorn says in interviews. He needs to kindly explain how the run game can be the same and effective when the passing game is starting all over with a QB who has shown he may not mentally be pro material. Stick 8 up-front and our run game is doomed. Words only go so far.

The last 4 years teams have put 8 in the box, and Portis still gets over a 1,000yds. When Portis got hurt in 2006, Betts rushed for over a 1000 yds. Now, what were you saying?

[ttr77]

I don't agree with that argument either. My issue was with timeframe. Everyone was going off of the 9 years Snyder has owned the team. However, plenty of teams have done far worse than us, over longer stretches. Yet that gets glossed over in favor of the championship game stat, eventhough it is refuted by the previous post I just mentioned. You, from what I could tell, supported that stat about conference championship games, but when it was mentioned the Cowboys should be on the list you went back 6 years further to encompass all 3 of the Cowboy's most recent Superbowls. That is why I said we won 3 before them, because if you can go 6 years back, then why can't I go further back? That was my issue, the timeline, nothing more.

Fair enough.

If I wanted to, and I've mentioned this in another thread, I can point out that under 1/3 of NFL teams have made the playoffs twice in the last 3 seasons, but the Skins are a part of that minority. It's all relative. Part of me believes that even if the Skins do win a Superbowl under Snyder, it won't stop or better things.

I'll just say that I think the main reason that this team made the playoffs in 2 of the last 3 years is now standing next to a racetrack somewhere. Besides, I still have a hard time being proud of the combined 25-23 record over those 3 seasons.

[maskedsuperstar]

I'm not even sure what this means...but ok.

But your bandwagon needs a tuneup.

Maybe it does, but I will never jump off of it. Maybe you should become a Panthers fan, like that other fan is talking about doing?? Hey, then you can watch Steve Smith punch out the entire team.

[elkabong82]

It doesn't matter if the revolving door comment is being used to put blame on Snyder or not, because your original statement was that Zorn is only the 4th coaching hire in 9 years, thus implying it isn't really a revolving door.

But for real, my question about English being your second language was a serious inquiry because it seems like every thread where I end up responding to you ends up devolving into me teaching you the English language.

define:ready

completely prepared or in condition for immediate action or use or progress

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:ready&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title

Seriously, enough with this garbage. Attacking me instead of discussing my points belittles only yourself.

The OP's purpose of this thread was to trash Snyder, that's pretty damn obvious. He used the revolving door remark as one of his reasons to fault Snyder. The remark is incorrect, as Snyder has been the cause for just 2 coaching changes in his 9 years as owner (firing Norv and then Marty). Again I'm talking about context, not the literal definition of the word. Why do you always have to do crap like this though? Why can't you ever talk about the subject at hand? Is your life really that pathetic you have to come one here and attack other posters using semantics and ignorance?

[ttr77]

Maybe it does, but I will never jump off of it. Maybe you should become a Panthers fan, like that other fan is talking about doing?? Hey, then you can watch Steve Smith punch out the entire team.

Right. Love it or leave it. Don't say anything bad about the team, or you are not a fan. Got it.

Now get back to work Vinny.

[elkabong82]

I'll just say that I think the main reason that this team made the playoffs in 2 of the last 3 years is now standing next to a racetrack somewhere. Besides, I still have a hard time being proud of the combined 25-23 record over those 3 seasons.

Fair enough. The way the team reacted after ST's passing and pulled together gives me enough reason to be proud of the current team. They could have gone 3-13 the 3 previous years, and I'd still be proud of them for the way they handled the situation. I know this may sound weird, but it isn't always about overall record.

[ntotoro]

The last 4 years teams have put 8 in the box, and Portis still gets over a 1,000yds. When Portis got hurt in 2006, Betts rushed for over a 1000 yds. Now, what were you saying?

How successful did that make the team over that entire period? Not terribly.

I'm sure the beatings he took didn't help his longevity, either. The guy barely got touched when he was in Denver.

[skins4eva]

Part of me believes that even if the Skins do win a Superbowl under Snyder, it won't stop or better things.

If the skins were to win a superbowl, you wouldn't be able to find happier fans anywhere than here. That much I guarantee. We all love this team--no is jumping ship to become a Panthers fan (really??)...there's just such an undercurrent of anger for Snyder, it's hard to brush it under the table and be "patient" or thankful with the results we've had during his tenure. I'm ok with losing, so long as we're progressing and getting better. My problem with Snyder stems from his inability to relinquish control. He doesn't know what he's doing! That's not a criticism, that's the reality. He made a billion dollars running an ad/communications business--how does that translate into football? Now, as the owner, he has the right to do whatever he wants--I'm not arguing that point. But doing what he wants, and doing what is best for the team and the franchise are two separate things. What's best for the franchise would be hiring competent football people who know football inside and out and know how to build winning teams. Why does Snyder love Vinny? Because Vinny implements whatever strategy Snyder wants to implement. Vinny does what Snyder says--Vinny is the guy who makes Snyder's "vision" a reality. That's not what we need. We need separation from the owner and the GM. The GM must have the ability to do what's best for the team after evaluating the positives and negatives of each decision, from a football perspective.

Snyder doesn't understand football anymore than any of us do, probably less than some of us do. He's never played the sport at any level, never coached the sport at any level. A competent owner would hire people who KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING and give them the independence to run the show and make the decisions. That's what great owners like Pollin and Kraft and the now deceased Wellington Mara do. They understand their limitations from a football perspective and they hire the most competent people to get the job done. Until we see Snyder do that, we won't see any real change.

[Shilsu]

Seriously, enough with this garbage. Attacking me instead of discussing my points belittles only yourself.

The OP's purpose of this thread was to trash Snyder, that's pretty damn obvious. He used the revolving door remark as one of his reasons to fault Snyder. The remark is incorrect, as Snyder has been the cause for just 2 coaching changes in his 9 years as owner (firing Norv and then Marty). Again I'm talking about context, not the literal definition of the word. Why do you always have to do crap like this though? Why can't you ever talk about the subject at hand? Is your life really that pathetic you have to come one here and attack other posters using semantics and ignorance?

Your points are an extension of yourself, which is why I seriously question your thinking process and your grasp of the English language.

define:revolving door

an organization or institution with a high rate of turnover of personnel or membership

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3Arevolving+door

[ttr77]

Fair enough. The way the team reacted after ST's passing and pulled together gives me enough reason to be proud of the current team. They could have gone 3-13 the 3 previous years, and I'd still be proud of them for the way they handled the situation. I know this may sound weird, but it isn't always about overall record.

Agreed. Every Skins fan should hold their head high after the way they finished last season. I also think that was a direct result of Gibbs' leadership. There probably isn't another person on the planet able to do what he did during that time.

[fansince62]

The last 4 years teams have put 8 in the box, and Portis still gets over a 1,000yds. When Portis got hurt in 2006, Betts rushed for over a 1000 yds. Now, what were you saying?

he's probably thinking that gross statistics mask variation.....you know....like an offensive line that consistently cannot exert its will in short yardage situations.....or...

2002 5.5 yards per carry

2003 5.5 yards per carry

2004 3.8 yards per carry

2005 4.3 yards per carry

2006 4.1 yards per carry

2007 3.9 yards per carry

where did the big breaks occur? what has been the trend? think O-line has anything to do with it? CP is remarkable despite...not because of...his O-line.

[elkabong82]

If the skins were to win a superbowl, you wouldn't be able to find happier fans anywhere than here. That much I guarantee. We all love this team--no is jumping ship to become a Panthers fan (really??)...there's just such an undercurrent of anger for Snyder, it's hard to brush it under the table and be "patient" or thankful with the results we've had during his tenure. I'm ok with losing, so long as we're progressing and getting better. My problem with Snyder stems from his inability to relinquish control. He doesn't know what he's doing! That's not a criticism, that's the reality. He made a billion dollars running an ad/communications business--how does that translate into football? Now, as the owner, he has the right to do whatever he wants--I'm not arguing that point. But doing what he wants, and doing what is best for the team and the franchise are two separate things. What's best for the franchise would be hiring competent football people who know football inside and out and know how to build winning teams. Why does Snyder love Vinny? Because Vinny implements whatever strategy Snyder wants to implement. Vinny does what Snyder says--Vinny is the guy who makes Snyder's "vision" a reality. That's not what we need. We need separation from the owner and the GM. The GM must have the ability to do what's best for the team after evaluating the positives and negatives of each decision, from a football perspective.

Snyder doesn't understand football anymore than any of us do, probably less than some of us do. He's never played the sport at any level, never coached the sport at any level. A competent owner would hire people who KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING and give them the independence to run the show and make the decisions. That's what great owners like Pollin and Kraft and the now deceased Wellington Mara do. They understand their limitations from a football perspective and they hire the most competent people to get the job done. Until we see Snyder do that, we won't see any real change.

I actually agree with a lot of what you said, except the parts about Snyder not relinquishing control and Vinny being basically an ineffective yes man.

Snyder relinquished control as early as when he brought Spurrier in. Unless of course you think it really was Snyder who wanted Danny Wuerffle and various other Florida Gators. If anything, I'd say Snyder's biggest problem has been relinquishing too much control to his head coaches.

Vinny has said several times he has curbed Snyder when it comes to football decisions. Vinny actually stopped Dan from giving up the farm to get Keyshawn Johnson, as well as more recently Tedd Ginn Jr. Part of Vinny's rep was that he became one of the fall guys from the 49ers when he was fired. Under Vinny they brought in TO, Bryant Young, and a bunch of other good players. The team even won a Superbowl while Vinny was the head of the college scouting department. How have the 49ers been doing since Vinny left? I just happen to think it is more than just coincidence that the second Snyder gives control to Vinny, instead of the head coach, we have 10 draft picks stockpiled and they all make the team, and we have a good offseason. Sadly, only time will tell if Vinny was a success with his draft.

[elkabong82]

Your points are an extension of yourself, which is why I seriously question your thinking process and your grasp of the English language.

define:revolving door

an organization or institution with a high rate of turnover of personnel or membership

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3Arevolving+door

Again I was talking about the context, not the pure definition of the word. Either you're doing this because you don't want to admit the OP was wrong in trying to lay all the blame on Snyder for the revolving door, or you really can't understand conceptual thought and language. Either way it's your loss, and you should really try to be less close-minded.

[Shilsu]

Again I was talking about the context, not the pure definition of the word. Either you're doing this because you don't want to admit the OP was wrong in trying to lay all the blame on Snyder for the revolving door, or you really can't understand conceptual thought and language. Either way it's your loss, and you should really try to be less close-minded.

I don't think you really know what context means.

define:context

discourse that surrounds a language unit and helps to determine its interpretation

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3Acontext

For example, when you said:

some of you complain about the "revolving door of coaches" eventhough Zorn is the 4th HC Snyder has hired since owning the team.

One can determine from the context of your statement that you did not think a "revolving door of coaches" was a valid complaint because Zorn is just the 4th coach Snyder has hired.