1999 TO 2008 A lesson in ownership

[RalphZero]

I'm a lawyer, does that mean that if I were to become a billionare I would know the first thing about owning a football team? Does that mean that if I had all the money in the world, I could go out and buy a hospital, make myself the chief of surgery and decide when to operate? What Snyder has done is really no less absurd.

True....

However, your hospital analogy would result in lawsuits and bankruptcy.

Snyder knew when he bought the team, this was a no lose situation. This is a money machine. Even if the team goes 2-14, his business would still pull in a profit.

He owns a monopoly. The Redskins are the only pro football team in this area. Nobody will ever cancel their season tickets or start rooting for another team. If I rooted for another team, I would not be here badmouthing the Redskins 24/7.

I was a season ticket holder last season and that was it for me. I think this is very entertaining. And it's not costing anything.

He will always make money as the owner.

It's not wins vs. losses, it's revenue vs. expenses.

Snyder will change his tune when he starts losing money.

[bedlamVR]

1999 - Snyder had the least impact over? With essentially the same roster Norv took us to 0-7 a year before ... a few years before that he took us to 7-1 before finishing 9-7 and missing the playofffs .

Snyder put a rocket up Norvs ass and that got results .

People lament about the Marty year ... but this is a guy who went to a competitive San Diego and had them heading into the toilet until A J Smith took over as a GM . Marty also has the privilege of being one of the only head coaches in history who was fired after leading his team to a 14-2 record.

I think an owner should have an interest in the team . Players know when they come here they will be looked after . Not just in terms of money but if they ever need anything Snyder will try and help . When Todd Collins wife was taken into labor he flew him across country and back again no questions ... when players had friends and family in NO during Katrina, Snyder lent his plane to go and get them ... he was also the first owner to put his hand in his pocket to give to the Katrina fund ....

I remember in the 90s free agents wouldn't come near Washington as it was seen as loosing franchise .

You really thing the Lauries or the Krafts have nothing to do with the running of the team who they hire and fire ... do they just leave it to thier general managers .....who are they again?

[kleese]

I just feel like all of these posts were from December of 2003. THAT is when we hit rock bottom. At that point, I thought the organization was toast-- I had no hope. I thoughtthe failed Spurrier years were going to be "it" for the Redskins.

But then Snyder got Gibbs to come back and really, I was HAPPY with the past 4 years. Not thrilled or doing cartwheels every Sunday, but cotent with the direction and newfound pride the Redskins had under Gibbs.

If you think Gibbs II was a "failure" than you probably hate Snyder and I have no hope.

If you think Gibbs II was a step in the right direction (as I do), then you are probably willing to give Snyder and company some time to see if they learned some lessons.

[MWCREDSKINS]

Unfortunately we can complain all we want it's not going to get us anywhere. Snyder is the owner of the team and doesn't give a darn what we think. It's too bad. As much as I can't stand Jerry Jones, the man knows how to run a football team and when and to whom to give authority. If Snyder had any clue, Vinny would be long gone, he wouldn't have fired Schottenheimer in 2002 and camp would be in Carlisle. But he's too pigheaded and only my love for the Redskins of Gibbs I prevents me from being a Steelers fan first. Danny Boy should take a look at the Rooney family and see how a real organization is run

[TheLongshot]

Unfortunately we can complain all we want it's not going to get us anywhere. Snyder is the owner of the team and doesn't give a darn what we think. It's too bad. As much as I can't stand Jerry Jones, the man knows how to run a football team and when and to whom to give authority. If Snyder had any clue, Vinny would be long gone, he wouldn't have fired Schottenheimer in 2002 and camp would be in Carlisle. But he's too pigheaded and only my love for the Redskins of Gibbs I prevents me from being a Steelers fan first. Danny Boy should take a look at the Rooney family and see how a real organization is run

I don't know if I'd give Jones that much credit. Outside of having Jimmy Johnson and Bill Parcells build some winners and living off of that for a while, he hasn't done much.

This Cowboys team should last longer than the last one because it is younger, but Jones' record as a GM is pretty spotty.

Jason

[GoCommiesGo]

1999 - Snyder had the least impact over? With essentially the same roster Norv took us to 0-7 a year before ... a few years before that he took us to 7-1 before finishing 9-7 and missing the playofffs .

I hate defending Norv hate, hate, hate. In 98 we started 0-7 and closed it out 6-3. Norv in 99 provided the greatest offense that the Redskins had seen since 1991.

The number 2 scoring offense and number 2 total yards offense. This was accompanied by the number 24 scoring defense. I have a huge dislike for Norval but when he finally got a QB (seems to be a difficulty in DC) the O blew up.

Snyder put a rocket up Norvs ass and that got results .

Just like a vat of vanilla ice cream worked for the D

People lament about the Marty year ... but this is a guy who went to a competitive San Diego and had them heading into the toilet until A J Smith took over as a GM . Marty also has the privilege of being one of the only head coaches in history who was fired after leading his team to a 14-2 record.

Say what you will about Marty but the Redskins team he had a tremendous amount of cap issues that Marty had to sort out. He also had Tony Banks as his QB and still managed a 8-8 record.

You know what I would not mind to have a coach go 14-2 and a playoff berth here in DC. He may have been fired but he's done more than any coach we've had since Danny took over.

I think an owner should have an interest in the team . Players know when they come here they will be looked after . Not just in terms of money but if they ever need anything Snyder will try and help . When Todd Collins wife was taken into labor he flew him across country and back again no questions ... when players had friends and family in NO during Katrina, Snyder lent his plane to go and get them ... he was also the first owner to put his hand in his pocket to give to the Katrina fund ....

Of course he should have an interest in the team. But his first interest is turning the largest profit margin he can, his second interest is winning.

I'm not saying that Danny is the devil. I'm saying he doesn't know how to run an NFL team.

I remember in the 90s free agents wouldn't come near Washington as it was seen as loosing franchise .

The only thing that has changed is that we are willing to give out exorbitant contracts to mediocre players because I've got news for you we are still a losing franchise.

You really thing the Lauries or the Krafts have nothing to do with the running of the team who they hire and fire ... do they just leave it to thier general managers .....who are they again?

You must be referring to 2 time NFL executive of the year Scott Pioli of the New England Patriots. Your right Kraft does not know what he is doing.

On the Eagles side, Lurie broke the bank this year for Samuels and allows people around him to make football descisions. Say what you will the Eagles are always competitive. They also have an aggregate record of 88-56 since Danny took over.

***And before you say I'm not a fan or whatever is en vogue around here. I love the Redskins but I am not willing to continue to accept mediocrity. Winning does take time and I understand that but Snyder doesn't. I love this team and I hate to see what it has become. When a 9-7 record and quick exit from the playoffs is considered glorious you know how far we've fallen. Not only in our expectations but the entire NFL's expectations.

[ttr77]

Let's see,

A gallon of regular gas in May '99 was in the range of $1.20, now it's around $3.60.

House was about $132,000 now about $300,700

Average Income was about $ 41,000 it’s now roughly $68,000

Car was in the range of $21,500 and now it’s around $28,700

Stamp 33 cents now 42 cents

Dayum, Snyder must have his mitts on everything.

Nah, only 2 things on your list have almost tripled like Skins tickets. So Dan must only have a say in gas prices and real estate.

However, gas is pretty much a necessity...and there is actual value in real estate.

[ttr77]

If you think Gibbs II was a step in the right direction (as I do), then you are probably willing to give Snyder and company some time to see if they learned some lessons.

In my mind, it was absolutely a step forward. But why claim 'continuity' and then decide to start over on offense? Why say 'if it aint broke, don't fix it', then act like it was broken? The whole idea is to make the playoffs, get the experience, and do whatever you can to go further the following season. Not to make the playoffs, go in a different directions, and beg for patience.

[Never4get#21]

***And before you say I'm not a fan or whatever is en vogue around here. I love the Redskins but I am not willing to continue to accept mediocrity. Winning does take time and I understand that but Snyder doesn't. I love this team and I hate to see what it has become. When a 9-7 record and quick exit from the playoffs is considered glorious you know how far we've fallen. Not only in our expectations but the entire NFL's expectations.

Well said...

I too will stand by the Skins regardless of record. Mediocrity = Vinny. Untill we get a real general manager in place we will not make a serious run.

Dan is a money maker. He needs to except the fact that he made a bad choice with Vinny and move on.

[texasthunder]

In my mind, it was absolutely a step forward. But why claim 'continuity' and then decide to start over on offense? Why say 'if it aint broke, don't fix it', then act like it was broken? The whole idea is to make the playoffs, get the experience, and do whatever you can to go further the following season. Not to make the playoffs, go in a different directions, and beg for patience.

And what would you have done different when Gibbs retired?

Kept Williams and Saunders ???

[Chief skin]

Another angry Skins fan sent this to me via email, (A LIFE LONG 35 YEAR FAN) I can't do what he suggests

but it is yet another example of 9 years of frustration. This fan base deserves better then the incompetence, arrogance, and stubborn attitude this front office subjects the city of Washnigton DC to year in and year out

SEE BELOW

I might be starting a movement to save the Redskins. It is obvious that our front office is an embarrassment to every REAL Redskin fan. How can everyone else come into the league with new head coaches and new QB's and are successful and we are not? Look at the Cowgirls, the Packers, the Steelers all those teams had new coaches last year and relatively new Qb's yet they are successful, the Packers were so successful they were one game away from the Super Bowl with a rookie head coach. It makes sense that those teams were set up for success, the pieces were in place when our team continues to flounder EVERY year. Same old Redskins. This draft was thick and full of linemen on both sides of the ball, a need we desperately need to fill and yet we draft a ton of skill position players such a WR's. This is completely irresponsible and shows complete lack of football knowledge and we know who is behind the draft. The only way we as Redskin fans move on is to in fact move on. Richie and Vinny are nothing more than amateurs that have no clue how the NFL works and Richie will continue his ways as long as he can turn a buck. The day he can not turn a buck is the day he sells the Redskins. I am thinking us REAL Redskin fans must turn our backs on this ****ized version of the Redskins and focus our time and money on a franchise to the south. The Panthers, that is correct become a Panther fan and sell your season tickets. By becoming Panther fans we in turn control Richie and Vinny and they will no longer have a TV deal and merchandise sales that make him so fat. In order to be a REAL Redskin fan you have to turn and walk away so one day we might have our beloved once proud franchise again. If you love something set it free, same adage one day the Redskins as we once knew them might come back to us.

[ntotoro]

And what would you have done different when Gibbs retired?

Kept Williams and Saunders ???

Well, yeah.

If I truly believed in building upon what we had (which was what Pretzel Boy insisted he was doing), anyway, and not scuttling the entire Offense.

[ttr77]

And what would you have done different when Gibbs retired?

Kept Williams and Saunders ???

For starters. Both of them took demotions to go to other teams. They would have stayed under the right conditions. And this is also what the players wanted.

Ah, but who wants continuity on a playoff team, huh? This is 'transition' year, right? Yeah...a transition from a playoff team to a non-playoff team.

[maskedsuperstar]

Some of you guys are a bunch of clowns. Gibbs part 2, went 30-34. Never cracked the top 10 in offense, averaged barely 19 points a game. Every defense knew that Portis was getting the ball. The offense was broke. Gibbs, I love the man to death, but he handcuffed Saunders. How many games did the Skins lead at halftime last season? 12!

Campbell even admitted that Joe went conservative in the 2nd half, relying on the defense to save the day. The NFL is about scoring points. If a team averages 19 points a game, that team is doomed. Gibbs part 1 would run the ball, and use the pass to cut the defense throat. Not so the 2nd time around. The game has changed. The ball must be thrown down the field.

[kleese]

In my mind, it was absolutely a step forward. But why claim 'continuity' and then decide to start over on offense? Why say 'if it aint broke, don't fix it', then act like it was broken? The whole idea is to make the playoffs, get the experience, and do whatever you can to go further the following season. Not to make the playoffs, go in a different directions, and beg for patience.

They had NO CHOICE!! All reports are that GW would NOT have brought back Al Saunders as OC. Obviously, we don't know this, but if we believe other "reports" about trying to trade picks for Ocho Cinco, etc. than we have to believe that one as well.

The ONLY way were going to keep continuity on offense was to hire Al as HC. Would you have been in favor of that?

When a head coach retires, you simply CAN'T avoid turnover. You can't just take a coordinator, plug him in and assume nothing will change.

I think Snyder was 100% willing to allow the continuity to keep on with Gibss... but when Gibbs left, his hand was forced.

[ttr77]

Some of you guys are a bunch of clowns. Gibbs part 2, went 30-34. Never cracked the top 10 in offense, averaged barely 19 points a game. Every defense knew that Portis was getting the ball. The offense was broke. Gibbs, I love the man to death, but he handcuffed Saunders. How many games did the Skins lead at halftime last season? 12!

Campbell even admitted that Joe went conservative in the 2nd half, relying on the defense to save the day. The NFL is about scoring points. If a team averages 19 points a game, that team is doomed. Gibbs part 1 would run the ball, and use the pass to cut the defense throat. Not so the 2nd time around. The game has changed. The ball must be thrown down the field.

Hey, I'm not saying the team was perfect under Gibbs 2.0. Far from it. But when ownership says they want continuity, they shouldn't expect me to be overly patient when they choose not to do so.

[texasthunder]

Well, yeah.

If I truly believed in building upon what we had (which was what Pretzel Boy insisted he was doing), anyway, and not scuttling the entire Offense.

And do you really believe that if by some miracle Williams had been made head coach, and kept Saunders as OC, that we would keep on winning ??

Look back at all the posts in this thread talking about mediocity.

Look back at all the threads and post supporting Jim Zorn and the new WCO when it was announced.

Then go back and look at last season. We barely made the playoffs. If it wasnt for Joe Gibbs coaching, and players emotions running high because of the tradegy surrounding #21, we would have never got that far.

[kleese]

Another angry Skins fan sent this to me via email, (A LIFE LONG 35 YEAR FAN) I can't do what he suggests

but it is yet another example of 9 years of frustration. This fan base deserves better then the incompetence, arrogance, and stubborn attitude this front office subjects the city of Washnigton DC to year in and year out

SEE BELOW

I might be starting a movement to save the Redskins. It is obvious that our front office is an embarrassment to every REAL Redskin fan. How can everyone else come into the league with new head coaches and new QB's and are successful and we are not? Look at the Cowgirls, the Packers, the Steelers all those teams had new coaches last year and relatively new Qb's yet they are successful, the Packers were so successful they were one game away from the Super Bowl with a rookie head coach. It makes sense that those teams were set up for success, the pieces were in place when our team continues to flounder EVERY year. Same old Redskins. This draft was thick and full of linemen on both sides of the ball, a need we desperately need to fill and yet we draft a ton of skill position players such a WR's. This is completely irresponsible and shows complete lack of football knowledge and we know who is behind the draft. The only way we as Redskin fans move on is to in fact move on. Richie and Vinny are nothing more than amateurs that have no clue how the NFL works and Richie will continue his ways as long as he can turn a buck. The day he can not turn a buck is the day he sells the Redskins. I am thinking us REAL Redskin fans must turn our backs on this ****ized version of the Redskins and focus our time and money on a franchise to the south. The Panthers, that is correct become a Panther fan and sell your season tickets. By becoming Panther fans we in turn control Richie and Vinny and they will no longer have a TV deal and merchandise sales that make him so fat. In order to be a REAL Redskin fan you have to turn and walk away so one day we might have our beloved once proud franchise again. If you love something set it free, same adage one day the Redskins as we once knew them might come back to us.

If you wouldn't mind, please send my reply to your friend:

This is some of the worst drivel I've ever read in my days on ES-- and that is saying a ton.

First of all, let's address some factual errors:

--The Packers did NOT have a rookie head coach last year. McCarthy was in his 2nd year-- in his first year, the Packers got off to a horrid start before winning their final stretch of games and finishing 8-8.

And please look at the Packers coaching history post-Holmgren. Lots of turnover and change with few results. It appears they've finally found a good combination of talent and coaching with McCarrthy.

--The Cowboys are still looking for their first playoff win in the post-Jimmy era. They have also gone through a number of coaches. It appears that maybe Parcells finally got them headed back in the right direction-- but can Wade Phillips seal the deal?

--Fans all moan about not focusing on the draft. I totally agree that this is a valid criticism. However, we had 10 picks this year and all 10 made the team. Yet, now, fans not only want to dictate HOW MANY picks we have, but also WHO we pick. It is ridiculously early to blast this draft class.

Now, as for the "9 years" thing....why do people stop there? How come no one talks about the misery of 1993-1998 before Snyder even arrived? People act as if Snyder took over this glorious piece of artwork and drew magic marker all over it--- it was already JUNK. A lot people whine and moan about FedEx vs. RFK.... well, as far as the stadium itself-- that is ALL on the Cooke family. It was JKC's baby.

So, really the Redskins have been miserable to varying degress (better now than when the Cooke's still had control) for almost 17 years.

Is there a magic number of seasons when fans finally "give up?"

The suggestion to switch teams is laughable. Even when I totally disagree with a fellow fan, I never question their fanhood or loyalty-- but this Panthers suggestion is asinine.

I wonder how many Packer fans became Vikings fans from 1969-1992? They had over two DECADES of NOTHING.

The Steelers were pretty much worthless from 1981-1992-- I wonder how many fans jumped ship to the Browns?

Things improved over the past 4 years, but all of a sudden there is this incredible and somewhat arbitrary backlash. It's silly.

[maskedsuperstar]

Hey, I'm not saying the team was perfect under Gibbs 2.0. Far from it. But when ownership says they want continuity, they shouldn't expect me to be overly patient when they choose not to do so.

OKAY! How many new coaches did the Skins get? Zorn, Smith, Mitchell

The rest of the coaches are still here. Its not Synders fault that Gibbs decided to call it quits. Now, is it? Everytime the Skins lose, the finger is pointed at Cerrato and Synder. Sorry, but I didn't see either of these 2 on the field last Thursday night. The Skins lost. Get over it. The season is not lost. Zorn made mistakes and admitted that he did.

I mean, some of you fans need to be on suicide watch.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I hate defending Norv hate, hate, hate. In 98 we started 0-7 and closed it out 6-3. Norv in 99 provided the greatest offense that the Redskins had seen since 1991.

The number 2 scoring offense and number 2 total yards offense. This was accompanied by the number 24 scoring defense. I have a huge dislike for Norval but when he finally got a QB (seems to be a difficulty in DC) the O blew up.

Well then, along those lines, our owner saw that we needed things shored up on defense and brought in 3 very good defensive players (Smith, Sanders, Carrier) to give Norv the support he needed. It worked!! Our D improved to a top-10 unit in the league if I remember correctly. In fact, had our offense not completely bogged down under Norv, we had championship-caliber D that year.

So, you can't have it both ways. If you want to defend Norv by saying he gave us our best offense in years in 1999, then you have to tip your cap to the owner for improving the D the following year and giving Norv a shot to make a run.

:2cents:

[maskedsuperstar]

If you wouldn't mind, please send my reply to your friend:

This is some of the worst drivel I've ever read in my days on ES-- and that is saying a ton.

First of all, let's address some factual errors:

--The Packers did NOT have a rookie head coach last year. McCarthy was in his 2nd year-- in his first year, the Packers got off to a horrid start before winning their final stretch of games and finishing 8-8.

And please look at the Packers coaching history post-Holmgren. Lots of turnover and change with few results. It appears they've finally found a good combination of talent and coaching with McCarrthy.

--The Cowboys are still looking for their first playoff win in the post-Jimmy era. They have also gone through a number of coaches. It appears that maybe Parcells finally got them headed back in the right direction-- but can Wade Phillips seal the deal?

--Fans all moan about not focusing on the draft. I totally agree that this is a valid criticism. However, we had 10 picks this year and all 10 made the team. Yet, now, fans not only want to dictate HOW MANY picks we have, but also WHO we pick. It is ridiculously early to blast this draft class.

Now, as for the "9 years" thing....why do people stop there? How come no one talks about the misery of 1993-1998 before Snyder even arrived? People act as if Snyder took over this glorious piece of artwork and drew magic marker all over it--- it was already JUNK. A lot people whine and moan about FedEx vs. RFK.... well, as far as the stadium itself-- that is ALL on the Cooke family. It was JKC's baby.

So, really the Redskins have been miserable to varying degress (better now than when the Cooke's still had control) for almost 17 years.

Is there a magic number of seasons when fans finally "give up?"

The suggestion to switch teams is laughable. Even when I totally disagree with a fellow fan, I never question their fanhood or loyalty-- but this Panthers suggestion is asinine.

I wonder how many Packer fans became Vikings fans from 1969-1992? They had over two DECADES of NOTHING.

The Steelers were pretty much worthless from 1981-1992-- I wonder how many fans jumped ship to the Browns?

Things improved over the past 4 years, but all of a sudden there is this incredible and somewhat arbitrary backlash. It's silly.

:applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:

[ttr77]

OKAY! How many new coaches did the Skins get? Zorn, Smith, Mitchell

The rest of the coaches are still here. Its not Synders fault that Gibbs decided to call it quits. Now, is it? Everytime the Skins lose, the finger is pointed at Cerrato and Synder. Sorry, but I didn't see either of these 2 on the field last Thursday night. The Skins lost. Get over it. The season is not lost. Zorn made mistakes and admitted that he did.

I mean, some of you fans need to be on suicide watch.

Its not WHO or HOW MANY he brought in. It's the fact that it's an entirely new offense. Every time there is some progress, they change things up. Then this board jumps on board, saying 'we need to give them time!'. Sorry, they've had plenty.

Suicide watch? Please. I guess not being happy with a football team's direction equals ending a life in your book, but not mine.

[texasthunder]

Another angry Skins fan sent this to me via email, (A LIFE LONG 35 YEAR FAN) I can't do what he suggests

but it is yet another example of 9 years of frustration. This fan base deserves better then the incompetence, arrogance, and stubborn attitude this front office subjects the city of Washnigton DC to year in and year out

SEE BELOW

I am thinking us REAL Redskin fans must turn our backs on this ****ized version of the Redskins and focus our time and money on a franchise to the south. The Panthers, that is correct become a Panther fan and sell your season tickets.

Oh please, please change your mind, surely you can find the will to do as he suggests. Try, try harder.

That way we might be able to get back to talking real football. Like what our defense is going to do to take away their running game, or talk about how their secondary matchs up to our recievers. And we can quit talking about all this political bs that REAL fans want to talk about.

You know, come sunday there will be over 90 thousand people in that stadium, and a ton more watching it on the tube. How many of those REAL fans do you think are going to sit back and say, Darn, Danny is making too much money, and he doesnt have a clue about how a football team should be run. Besides you, and your pen pal buddy, how many more will be thinking those thought ????????

[kleese]

Speaking of jumping ship...please point this out to your friend as well: It is not our birthright as Redskins fans to have a consistent winner. Sometimes, the drought is very, very, very long. True fans perservere.

--New York Jets from 1970-1998 were pretty much garbage. To THIS day, the Jets have won exactly TWO division titles over that period and have appeared in zero Super Bowls.

--Buffalo Bills from 1970-1987 made the playoffs a total of 3 times, never advancing past the divisional round.

--New Orleans Saints from 1967-1986 had ZERO playoff appearances. After a brief flurry in the late 80's/early 90's-- the Saints proceeded to miss the playoffs in 12 of the next 13 seasons.

--Tampa Bay Bucs from 1983-1996 had NO winning seasons. Never even finished 8-8.

--New York Giants from 1964-1983 made the playoffs ONCE.

--Detroit Lions from 1958-1990 had THREE playoff appearances. Zero Super Bowl appearances in franchise history, and have yet to make the post-season this decade.

--Cincinnati Bengals from 1991-present have made the playoffs ONCE.

--Philadelphia Eagles from 1950-1977 made the post-season one time (won the NFL Title in 1960).

--Baltimore/Indianapolis Colts from 1978-1994 made the playoffs once.

--Chicago/St. Louis/Arizona Cardinals from 1949-present have a total of FOUR playoff appearances with no Super Bowl appearances.

[deejaydana]

Look at it this way O.P., you are old enough to have enjoyed the glory years where the playoffs were a given and Super Bowl appearances were almost expected every few years. Think of the really young fans on this board who never enjoyed those times but still root wholeheartedly for the Burgundy and Gold.