Winning at a Trade - the Tide is Turning

[Tarpon75]

Bull-****!!! Maybe if we'd been able to get some decent players in the second round, but we ended up giving up our first round pick, our third round pick (not the comp) and our fifth round pick for a pair of players that were the wrong selections.

I actually LIKED the trade until Antoine Cason and Lawrence Jackson got selected by San Diego and Seattle respectively near the end of the first round. Then it became blatantly obvious that we were not going to get any serious upgrades anywhere in the second round. We selected the WRONG WR at #34 (should have taken Nelson); then proceeded to throw away the #48 on another WR (he can't block so he's not a TE in my mind) and a THIRD WR at #51. I hope at least one of them can play CB and the TE can play DE, because THOSE were true need positions, not THREE WIDE RECEIVERS in the second round.

Oh, the ridiculous draft pick chart may say we made out in the trade but when it comes to actual on-field talent we got bent over like a $2 whore.

No matter what the Skins do it is wrong with you.As far as any of us know this could turn out to be a great draft.I really don't understand why you follow the Skins as you seem to really dislike everything they do.I don't understand the TE pick myself but we never know how things will play out.

[MrJL]

We got both of the 2nds and their 4th this year, we gave them our first and our 5th this year.

I happen to think the value changes from year to year... and this year I believe we did well. Sure, Philly got a 1st next year.... .but who knows what the talent holds next year. Also, Philly has to pay that first rounder this year... and the additional 1st rounder next year. We get three quality players with 2nd Round value. We needed picks this year.... and picked up three of them in the first four rounds for one of ours. If we score with a nice need pick in Rds. 3 & 4... say a D-lineman as well as a quality versatile O-lineman... I'd say that regardless of what we do in Rd. 6 & 7 we'd have a quality draft.

What, is the third rounder next year?

Just checked the draft list on NFL.com. It is not for next year.

[Tarpon75]

Pat Kirwin,said the Skins did very well in his opinion.He believes the team added some great weapons.We'll see.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

No matter what the Skins do it is wrong with you.As far as any of us know this could turn out to be a great draft.I really don't understand why you follow the Skins as you seem to really dislike everything they do.I don't understand the TE pick myself but we never know how things will play out.

Call it living in hope that they'll eventually pull their heads out of a body cavity I'm not comfortable discussing here. Basically the only thing that's kept me hanging on is memories of 1991, and those are wearing very thin at this point. I have a vision of what I want to see the team be. I was really hoping that today would be the day they turned towards that vision. Unfortunately not only did they turn in the other direction, but kicked dirt in my face while doing it.

[MrJL]

You can't address trade scenarios based solely on some subjective "gut" feeling of what you think your 1st rounder should be worth...you have to PROVE to the other team that your proposal is both fair and beneficial to them...and a value chart helps you do that. You can't effectively do that by taking a fan approach to things. Teams will just start talking to the team that picks after you or in front of you instead.

What makes you think the Skins initiated this deal? Maybe it was the Falcons who had to PROVE what the deal was worth?

[Ernie5]

Then it became blatantly obvious that we were not going to get any serious upgrades anywhere in the second round.

Mass Redskin, let me introduce you to football. Football, Mass Redskin. You must have been watching the WNBA Draft b/c I saw us trade back and pick up a player we thought we wouldn't have a chance at sitting at #21. A STEAL! All three players were steals, but Thomas was larceny.

Did we win the trade? That's harder to say. We got what we needed. I imagine Atlanta did, too, although I didn't see the point in moving up to draft Sam Baker at #21. If we'd drafted Sam Baker at #21, the Snyder-haters would have set this forum on fire (they probably will no matter the team does).

A shockingly strong first day.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Mass Redskin, let me introduce you to football. Football, Mass Redskin. You must have been watching the WNBA Draft b/c I saw us trade back and pick up a player we thought we wouldn't have a chance at sitting at #21. A STEAL! All three players were steals, but Thomas was larceny.

Sorry, while I thought the concept of the trade was good, what we got with the extra picks was dog **** so far as I'm concerned. I wouldn't have wanted Thomas as "Mr. Irrelevant" at the end of the day tomorrow. He doesn't meet my requirements for a draft pick (not a Senior). I'll agree TE was a need position, but not that high in the draft and not another WR-in-TE clothing; an actual, honest-to-goodness, blocks like an OT, TE. Then after selecting 2 WR's already we go out and select another one that I wouldn't have selected in any round (Junior, injury issues, no solid resume). The only stealing done will be when these three collect their paychecks next year.

A shockingly strong first day.

We're going to have to disagree on that, Ernie.

[bskinsfan]

Again no exsuses for cambell

[Califan007 The Constipated]

What makes you think the Skins initiated this deal? Maybe it was the Falcons who had to PROVE what the deal was worth?

And what would they use to prove the deal was a worthwhile one to the Skins? Just their opinion? lol...My argument wasn't just for the Redskins, it was for any team, any GM, any coach. The draft value chart helps facilitate trades far, FAR more than just going with your gut would do.

[Bacon]

Again no exsuses for cambell

Unless the line goes down again, you're right.

[elkabong82]

Atlanta got the 21st pick, the 84th pick, and 154th pick. Those are worth 800, 170, and about 29.8 points respectively.

The Skins got the 34th, 48th, and about 103rd pick, which are worth 560, 420, and 88 points respectively.

The Falcons got 999.8 points, we got 1068 points, roughly. That is a point difference of 68.2, which is a mid 4th rounder.

You add to that the fact we got an absolute steal in Devin Thomas in the 2nd round (the best rated WR in the draft by Kiper and others) and we definitely came out on top.

The Frec Davis pick is a ?, but obviosuly it is for the WCO system Zorn will be using. This also helps in our biggest weak spot on O, the redzone. We can get the down the field, but we kept stalling out in the redzone last season. While I don't agree with a TE in the 2nd for this team, it appears Davis was one of the BPA's when we picked. I'll reserve complete judgement until I see what this kid offers on the field.

Kelly has injury concerns, but seeing as these guys were all 2nd rounders, it lessens the risk. Not to mention all these guys will have smaller contracts than the 1st rounders obviously. Kelly does provide yet another redzone threat. Now we better get some O-line and D-line help tomorrow.

All these years of primarily adressing defense in the draft, and now we have swung the other way and infused more youth into our offense. While you may not like all the picks we made, you definitley cannot say our O has not just received a very big spark.

[HeHateMe]

No one wins trades on draft day.

Deals such as this can only be measured years (seasons) after they occur.

They always look good when they are made. Each team can make the argument on why or how they "won" the trade or got the better of it. Because, duh, they wouldnt have done the trade to begin with if they didnt think it was for their benefit.

In 2010, we'll have a much better idea of who the "winner" of this deal was.

[Forever21]

No one wins trades on draft day.

Deals such as this can only be measured years (seasons) after they occur.

They always look good when they are made. Each team can make the argument on why or how they "won" the trade or got the better of it. Because, duh, they wouldnt have done the trade to begin with if they didnt think it was for their benefit.

In 2010, we'll have a much better idea of who the "winner" of this deal was.

arghgH!GH!!

My brain doesn't handle logic well.

[Bacon]

No one wins trades on draft day.

Deals such as this can only be measured years (seasons) after they occur.

They always look good when they are made. Each team can make the argument on why or how they "won" the trade or got the better of it. Because, duh, they wouldnt have done the trade to begin with if they didnt think it was for their benefit.

In 2010, we'll have a much better idea of who the "winner" of this deal was.

Very well put, HHH, but you're ruining our fun.

But seriously, the picks we made today won't even make complete sense to us until after tomorrow's picks have been made, so speculation is mostly a waste of time at the moment. We went BPA, which is high-risk, high-reward, something we won't be able to judge for several more years.

[turbodiesel#44]

To win this deal, it would have been equivalent to the ass rapping Philly put on Carolina.

Is ass-rapping the same as hip-hop farting? Because I already have that CD.

[HeHateMe]

Very well put, HHH, but you're ruining our fun.

But seriously, the picks we made today won't even make complete sense to us until after tomorrow's picks have been made, so speculation is mostly a waste of time at the moment. We went BPA, which is high-risk, high-reward, something we won't be able to judge for several more years.

Hey, aside from the TE pick, I like (well, I hate, but think its good) the value the Skins got today. Not that the TE was necessarily bad, but just a head-scratcher.

They have many more picks to make more deals, so this argument will continue.

But if I'm a Skins fan, so far so good.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

No one wins trades on draft day.

Deals such as this can only be measured years (seasons) after they occur.

They always look good when they are made. Each team can make the argument on why or how they "won" the trade or got the better of it. Because, duh, they wouldnt have done the trade to begin with if they didnt think it was for their benefit.

In 2010, we'll have a much better idea of who the "winner" of this deal was.

Actually, the ONLY time you win in trades is on draft day. Three years down the road is when you see how well you spent your winnings.

[HeHateMe]

Actually, the ONLY time you win in trades is on draft day. Three years down the road is when you see how well you spent your winnings.

Or losings.

[Veretax]

Then it became blatantly obvious that we were not going to get any serious upgrades anywhere in the second round.

Mass Redskin, let me introduce you to football. Football, Mass Redskin. You must have been watching the WNBA Draft b/c I saw us trade back and pick up a player we thought we wouldn't have a chance at sitting at #21. A STEAL! All three players were steals, but Thomas was larceny.

Did we win the trade? That's harder to say. We got what we needed. I imagine Atlanta did, too, although I didn't see the point in moving up to draft Sam Baker at #21. If we'd drafted Sam Baker at #21, the Snyder-haters would have set this forum on fire (they probably will no matter the team does).

A shockingly strong first day.

Once we saw albert was gone, things began going down hill. I love that we got Thomas he was the one Wide out I thought was worth our first round pick. I'm not sold on Malcom but if he busts his tail and proves he is worth it I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. The Tight End pick puzzled me at first, but then I like the metrics and measurables of Fred Davis.

In all My only gripe is I think one of those three picks should have been spent on either Guard, Defensive Tackle, or Corner. But I can't argue. We got a steal with both the Wide outs. And I also enjoyed watching Brohm and Henne fall only to be snatched just before Chucky got his picks in LOL

[kreitmaster]

When we traded to get Campbell, we were criticized. Clearly, the Broncos got a lot of value from us. We were in a position where we really wanted a player, and we gave up a lot to get him. We were very liberal with our draft picks, and we gave up a lot. Gibbs pointed to the draft chart for his rebuttle, claiming that we actually did well as far as points were concerned. Obviously, we filled a huge need. It was the right move for our team. Still, the general consensus was that the Broncos won that trade. The consensus has been that we consistently lose in a trade.

This time, we won. Another team had that big need, and we cashed in. We were not the ones reaching, as we were in the past. Jason La Confera (one of our biggest detractors lately) wrote a piece that made it sound like we got the deal of the century. In short, we won this one.

La Canfora reported that we were getting 2 2nds and a 4th and not giving up any picks. That would have been a steal, but throwing back in the 3rd and the 5th makes it a wash.

[Merlin Emrys]

We got both of the 2nds and their 4th this year, we gave them our first and our 5th this year.

Now if that were true, the Skins would have won this deal, but you're ignoring the fact that we also gave up a 3rd this year.

[Major Harris]

We needed picks this year.... and picked up three of them in the first four rounds for one of ours.

i want whatever math you're using. it sounds better than how the trade added up in my mind.

[Titaw]

Call it living in hope that they'll eventually pull their heads out of a body cavity I'm not comfortable discussing here. Basically the only thing that's kept me hanging on is memories of 1991, and those are wearing very thin at this point. I have a vision of what I want to see the team be. I was really hoping that today would be the day they turned towards that vision. Unfortunately not only did they turn in the other direction, but kicked dirt in my face while doing it.

Dude, you are not a GM and you do not run the team. Your vision will NEVER come to fruition. Just because a guy is not a senior you don't like him. I'd rather have juniors over seniors, one less year of pounding on their bodies.

I know you are upset that your man crush, Jordy wasn't picked by the Skins, but you'll get over it when Kelly, Davis and Thomas score their first TD's in week 1 against the Giants.

By no means did the team "Kick Dirt" in your face because if they did, I don't know about you, but I don't think I would be a fan of that team anymore.

[robotfire]

Actually, the ONLY time you win in trades is on draft day. Three years down the road is when you see how well you spent your winnings.

Exactly. Now for fun, let's speculate on how we did:

"As it worked out, the same guys that we were considering at No, 21 were the same guys that were there at No. 34, minus [Clemson defensive end] Phillip Merling," Cerrato said. Cerrato also said, "We have been following our board. When we were at 48, our highest-rated guy still with a first-round grade was Fred Davis. We have always followed the board.

As a side note, unrelated to the trade, "Then, Malcolm Kelly was the only guy still on the board with a first-round grade. He stuck out like a sore thumb, so it was an obvious choice for us."

It's not unusual for a late fifth rounder to get cut by the team before the season starts. The guy we would have taken late in the third will probably still be there early in the fourth. So basically, if we planned on taking Devin Thomas in the first anyway, we essentially got Fred Davis in the fifth round. Somebody correct me if my math is wrong.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

It's not unusual for a late fifth rounder to get cut by the team before the season starts. The guy we would have taken late in the third will probably still be there early in the fourth. So basically, if we planned on taking Devin Thomas in the first anyway, we essentially got Malcolm Kelly in the fifth round.

LoL...definitely one way of looking at it. :applause:

We traded down from #21 to #34 and still picked up the guy we probably would have drafted anyway.

We traded down from #84 to #103 and will probably still get the guy we would have drafted anyway. And if not, someone just as good.

For doing those two moves, we were able to trade UP all the freakin' way up from #154 to #48...and got Fred Davis.