On Clemons and steroids.

[TMK9973]

JMS - Come on man.

Yes -It is all circumistanal evidence. And any 1 or 2 of these things could be explained away.

BUT ALL OF IT TOGETHER?

If you read this story but it was about Bonds, not clemons - What would you think?

[JMS]

JMS - Come on man.

Yes -It is all circumistanal evidence. And any 1 or 2 of these things could be explained away.

BUT ALL OF IT TOGETHER?

If you read this story but it was about Bonds, not clemons - What would you think?

There is one hurdle which you have to get over to believe Clemens is innocent. You have to believe Petite could forget or misremember a single conversation in passing eight years latter. The fact that they never discussed this topic again even though petite himself started experimenting with HGH two years latter further casts doubt on Petites memory.

I don't think that's a very large hurdle to get over.

All of McNamee's testimony is from a serial liar, non of it is creditable.

As for Bonds. Dude the case against bonds is rock solid. You have a paper trail, you have numerous creditable witnesses who saw Bonds do it. You also have a confession.

There is no similarity between the Bonds case and the case against Clemens.

[TMK9973]

There is one hurdle which you have to get over to believe Clemens is innocent. You have to believe Petite could forget or misremember a conversation in passing eight years later.

All of McNamee's testimony is from a serial liar, non of it is creditable.

As for Bonds. Dude the case against bonds is rock solid. You have a paper trail, you have numerous creditable testimony. You also have a convession.

There is no similarity between the Bonds case and the case against Clemons.

No - there are three hurdles - That you have to jump at the same time.

1) Petite forgot or "misremembered" a converstation 8 years later.

I find that hard to beleive. Not that he wouldn't forget what was said 8 years later, that happens all the time, but the fact that he was sure enough about it to say it to a committee that involved a good friend of his. If he said "I don't remember" or if he said "I remember us talking, but I don't remember the details" I would accept it.

But he didn't. He said he remember it, said it about a friend, stood by it and says he remembers it.

2) His Wife took them.

No one is claiming his wife lied. So you are to beleive that a proffesional baseball players, whose trainer is giving HGH to both his wife and his best friend, is not doing it? His wife finds it ok to try for beatuy but he doesn't?

3) His trainer is lying. Although he has nothing to gain by including Clemons, he says it.

I could accept that any 1 of these is incorrect, maybe even 2, but all 3?

You would have to beleive that his trainer, best friend, and wife decided all to lie in order to cause trouble for a man they care about.

[Mooka]

Having said that, I'm wondering how the hell anybody can claim Clemons is guilty.

You act like no one has ever linked Roger to steroids. Ever since the broken-bat incident, its been lingering over Roger's head.

Conseco mentions Clemens in his book, though I don't remember what specifically.

When Grimsley was caught, surprise, his source was someone recommended to him by McNamee and he implicated both Pettite and Roger along with Miggy, Jay Gibbons, Brian Roberts, David Segui, and Larry Bigbie.

Now look at the list of players Grimsley listed and tell me what stands out to you.

McNamee being a steroid dealing lier looks bad for Clemens. Just as Barry's long time trainer being Anderson was very suspect. You forget that McNamee isn't just implicating Roger, but others who have coroborated his story and admitted he gave them HGH and linked them to steroids. (Pettite, Grimsley, etc) You think McNamee is only lying about Roger or everyone is lying?

[StillUnknown]

i'm starting to think JMS is apart of Clemens' legal team. lol

[EersSkins05]

Clemens had butt zits? That's your evidence? Jesus, I'm on steroids EersKins05 can prove it.

How about an expert claiming that you can use an MRI to diagnose steroid use... How exactly does that work?

From USA Today:

1998 abscess on Clemens' buttocks

McNamee says it came from rushed Winstrol injection; MRI obtained by committee says it's likely related to patient's "prior attempted intra-muscular injection." [Gee, I wonder what that is...]

Clemens says a gluteus muscle strain or "a bad shot" of B-12 from the Blue Jays team doctor could have created the abscess.

A doctor consulted by the committee (said to be the nation's leading expert on MRI examination) says he never saw such a reaction from a B-12 shot and that an abscess is "more compatible with Winstrol injection." He also notes that none of the results from the MRI show any kind of muscle strain.

This isn't me talking out of my (non-roided) ass. This is expert medical opinion. It's as close to a smoking gun as you're going to get, especially considering that there was no way for anyone to test if these substances were used until very recently.

The rest of the evidence is circumstantial, but it's incredibly persuasive circumstantial evidence.

You want us to believe that Clemens lives in a world where his best friends and wife are using steroids provided by CLEMENS' PERSONAL TRAINER and he knows nothing about it. Not only that, but his friends, for no apparent reason, TESTIFY THAT CLEMENS USED STEROIDS. And not only that, but this scumbag drug-dealing trainer with no credibility whatsoever, is permitted to work for, live in the home of, and befriend Clemens from 97 until the Mitchell Report comes out. At the VERY LEAST you have guilt by association. At face value, you have an open and shut case that no jury in the world would misinterpret as badly as you, an admitted big time fan, have.

[Thiebear]

If Pettite claimed he injected Roger, or saw Roger inject himself, or saw someone else inject Roger. If any credible guy claimed such. Then I could see making Roger address the issue, and even threaten his HOF vote.

You mean like the Nanny, his wife and his best friend.

o.k. they all mis-remembered?

[JMS]

You mean like the Nanny, his wife and his best friend.

o.k. they all mis-remembered?

Nanny never claimed she saw or heard of Roger take steroids. She put's Clemens at Cesenco's house during a party when McNamee claimed to have shot Clemens up with HGH. Clemons said he was on the golf coarse with four other yankees. Clemons brought the nanny with him cause he left his kids with her at Cosenco's home during this party. Clemons has the score card, but the golf coarse is next to Cosenco's home, so what does that prove either way?

Rogers wife took HGH, in the ass, from "Dr." McNamee, in their home, with Clemens not present. Clemens said he only found out about it after it happenned and she never tried it again.

And Petite never said he saw Clemens take steroids, he said in one conversation eight years ago in passing Clemons gave him the impression that he was taking steroids(HGH). They never discussed it again. Even two years latter when Pettite himself started experimenting with HGH. One conversation in passing, eight years ago.

[Thiebear]

You've taken blindly stubborn to the next level.

So his trainer was hitting everyone around him in the ass.

Science shows He has abscesses in his ass from the same thing.

yet still... denial.

[JMS]

No - there are three hurdles - That you have to jump at the same time.

1) Petite forgot or "misremembered" a converstation 8 years later.

I find that hard to beleive. Not that he wouldn't forget what was said 8 years later, that happens all the time, but the fact that he was sure enough about it to say it to a committee that involved a good friend of his. If he said "I don't remember" or if he said "I remember us talking, but I don't remember the details" I would accept it. But he didn't. He said he remember it, said it about a friend, stood by it and says he remembers it.

Pettite was under oath asked if he had any knowledge of Clemens doing Steroids. ANY knowledge. Pettite had no choice but to say what he knew. What he knew was.

(1) He had never seen Roger with or doing Steroids.

(2) He had never heard of anybody claiming Roger had done steroids other than McNamee.

(3) He had a single conversation about HGH with Roger eight years ago, one conversation among thousands these two best friends had over that time, and Pettite came away from this conversation believing Roger took HGH.

2) His Wife took them.

No one is claiming his wife lied. So you are to beleive that a proffesional baseball players, whose trainer is giving HGH to both his wife and his best friend, is not doing it? His wife finds it ok to try for beatuy but he doesn't?

No one is claiming that Clemens was present. No one was claiming Clemens was consulted. Clemens and his wife both said he found out only after it had happenned. She had one injection and never did it again after Clemens heard about it.

To me that reflects badly on "Dr." McNamee. What's he doing with Clemen's wife at her house without Clemens there. What's he doing talking Clemen's wife into taking a dangerous drug? What's he doing getting her to drop her pants in this situtation? Remember "Dr." McNamee got his "phd" in sports medicine from a mail order un acredited University which he never visited. He flat out committed fraud every day for a decade presenting himself professionally as a Doctor.

Who really comes away from this episode looking worse? Clemens who wasn't there, and found out about it after the fact. Clemen's wife who was listening to what this "Doctor" of sports medicine said to her? Or McNamee who basically turns out to be a con man with no credentials talking this lady into taking a dangerous drug while purpetrating fraud.

3) His trainer is lying. Although he has nothing to gain by including Clemons, he says it.

Nothing to gain? First off his Trainer is a serial liar. He lied to federal investigators, he lied to congress during the hearing. His entire career is based on lies.

The man isn't a phd, he isn't a doctor. He was an out of work former police drug enforcement officer living in a hotel, who sent away for a certificate from the back of a magazine. He said he didn't realize his mail order phd certificate wasn't from an acredited school when he told the federal investigators he had a doctorate in sports medicine, to avoid being charged with purgery right off the bat.

Remember his business is pandering to new baseball talent. And he was illegally using Clemen's likeness and image in advertsiments. Work with "Dr" McNamee, the man who helped Roger Clemens develop his fast ball. Yet he told the commitee and investigators he was not using Clemen's likeness illegally.

McNamee is a serial liar, who was presented to Clemens as a doctor of sports medicine. McNamee used this position to promote himself through his association with Clemens, Petite and The Blue Jays, and the Yankees.

McNamee does have something to gain from trashing Clemens. He has self promotion to gain, something he has been doing unethically for the last decade.

You would have to beleive that his trainer, best friend, and wife decided all to lie in order to cause trouble for a man they care about.

You would have to believe the Trainer is a scum bag, which he certainly is.

The wife proves nothing. Nobody claimed Clemens was there or was consulted. I think it anything that prooves what a scumbag McNamee is.

Pettite is the most damning evidence. And as we've both already agreeed, that wasn't very damning...

One conversation in passing, eight years ago, between best friends who worked closely, spoke daily, and socialized together. It's not much of a hurdle to say Petite just got it wrong.

And Remember Pettite asked not to speak in Congress and confront Clemens. Pettite said what he said in closed door testimony and his entire transcript to my knowledge has not even been released, just snipits of it.

[PleaseBlitz]

The congressional hearings have come and gone, and in case you haven't quite figured it out yet, here's the lesson we all learned Wednesday: It matters little if you're right or wrong ... it's how you come across when the cameras are rolling.

So in the spirit of armchair quarterbacks and postgame analytical geniuses everywhere, we hand out our grades for Wednesday's patriots participants.

Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif.

HIGH POINT: His "this is not your time to argue with me!" word-slap closing remark he gave to Roger Clemens.

LOW POINT: When he opened with "Andy Pettitte's consistent honesty makes him a role model on and off the field." Looks like someone needs All-Star Game tickets.

FINAL VERDICT: Even though he looks like a goblin from the Harry Potter moves, Rep. Waxman played a competent ringmaster to this circus.

GRADE: B+

The Congressional Vote Bell

HIGH POINT: When Rep. Tom Davis, R-Va. said the bell would be heard frequently, because members have votes to make and "there's chaos on the floor." Out of the way, man! We're making laws here!

LOW POINT: Bell sounds like an iMac alert sound. Lame.

FINAL VERDICT: Good to know the U.S. government works like a Soviet canine behavior conditioning experiment.

OVERALL GRADE: B

Former Senator George Mitchell

HIGH POINT: Being born and everything after, if the committee's reverence was any indication.

LOW POINT: Not showing up to: (a) have Rep. Waxman and Rep. Davis kiss his ring; ( bask in the soft, balmy glow of his own awesomeness.

FINAL VERDICT: If Mitchell drops by Capitol Hill, do congressmen ask for his autograph, too?

OVERALL GRADE: A+

Andy Pettitte

HIGH POINT: The part in his deposition where he admits to cutting down the cherry tree.

LOW POINT: ESPN rerunning that "shuffle sideways, catch a football" workout footage of Pettitte, Roger Clemens and Brian McNamee yet again. Why are they slam-dunking footballs, anyway?

FINAL VERDICT: After lying, re-lying, sort of lying, then supposedly telling the truth, Andy never had to publicly admit to cheating with banned substances and wasn't around to explain the details of ratting out his friend. Despite all this, his credibility/mystique in the chamber was second only to Sen. Mitchell.

OVERALL GRADE: A+

Roger Clemens

HIGH POINT: Made it through his entire opening statement before reaching for bottled water; definitively cleared up the whole Springsteen tickets mess.

LOW POINT: When he interrupted Rep. Waxman's closing remarks, got gaveled into submission and subsequently appeared as though he wanted to throw a bat handle at the committee chairman.

FINAL VERDICT: If he doesn't go to prison, there's a ChapStick endorsement at the end of all this.

OVERALL GRADE: D

Roger Clemens' notepad

HIGH POINT: Every time Clemens acted as if he was taking detailed notes, the better to provide lucid answers.

LOW POINT: Every time Clemens opened his mouth, the better to answer questions that nobody asked in the first place.

FINAL VERDICT: Those doodles would fetch $1,000-plus on eBay, easily.

OVERALL GRADE: C

Debbie Clemens

HIGH POINT: The decision to comb her hair over her forehead to cover what's most likely a third ear.

LOW POINT: For all you married ladies out there, you should never put yourself in a position where you're taking secret bedroom injections.

FINAL VERDICT: Even though Deb carried the yellow rose of Texas with her, remember what 20th century philosopher Bret Michaels taught us: "Every rose has its thorn."

GRADE: C+

Brian McNamee

HIGH POINT: Every time Roger Clemens answered a question.

LOW POINT: When Rep. Christopher Shays, R-Conn., refused to agree to disagree.

FINAL VERDICT: Even though he looked like he physically shrank as the day went on, the overall consensus from Sen. Mitchell to the Feds is that he's the most honest of all the liars. What an honor.

GRADE: C-

Charles Scheeler

HIGH POINT: Absolutely crushed the assertion of Rep. John Duncan, R-Tenn., that Mitchell didn't do enough to contact Clemens ("I'm an easy man to find! I'm a man! I'm 40!") before the release of his report; the bemused, billion-dollar smirk he repeatedly shot Clemens, the look of a father listening to his son swear up and down he didn't take cookies from the jar, even though he has crumbs and chocolate chips smeared all over his face.

LOW POINT: At one point during hearing, appeared to nod off.

FINAL VERDICT: Didn't have to say a whole lot, despite the hearing allegedly being about the veracity of the Mitchell report. Bonus points for not actually putting head down on desk.

OVERALL GRADE: A

The Nanny

HIGH POINT: Got to party at Canseco's!

LOW POINT: English-speaking ability impugned in an environment already hostile to immigrants; got to chase around toddlers at a party that had only "ice tea and sandwiches." Bor-ing!

FINAL VERDICT: Depends. Did she have to take HGH to fit into that peach bikini/green board shorts combo?

OVERALL GRADE: Incomplete

God

HIGH POINT: When He finally meets Pettitte, released congressional transcripts figure to save Him at least 20 minutes, time better spent appearing on a tortilla in Guadalajara.

LOW POINT: When Rep. Eleanor Norton, D-D.C., tried to do His job.

FINAL VERDICT: Only God -- and possibly Rep. Shays -- can judge that.

OVERALL GRADE: ∞

The NFL

HIGH POINT: Spygate what?

LOW POINT: None.

FINAL VERDICT: Roger Goodell's meeting with Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pa., on the same day of the Clemens hearing is purely coincidental.

OVERALL GRADE: A

The English language

HIGH POINT: Semantic debate between Rep. Shays and McNamee over the exact meaning of "drug dealer." Since when are politicians so concerned with using precise language?

LOW POINT: Rep. Mark Souder, R-Ind., characterizing the phrase "it is what it is" as mysterious New Yorker lingo requiring further Congressional investigation, as opposed to an empty, shrugging cliché deployed in 1,000 locker rooms and/or anywhere else dumb people want to sound vaguely philosophical.

FINAL VERDICT: Rough day. Or maybe we're just misremembering things, like Andy.

OVERALL GRADE: C

The children

HIGH POINT: Everyone sounding very, very concerned about their health, safety and general well-being.

LOW POINT: A Congressional hearing actually devoted to the welfare of children would probably focus on failing schools, youth obesity, pediatric health care or how playing "Grand Theft Auto" is the sole cause of all violent crime.

FINAL VERDICT: Hey -- Clemens "shared his talents God gave him with children." What more do the little ingrates want?

OVERALL GRADE: F

Logic

HIGH POINT: Are you kidding?

LOW POINT: Clemens' tortured explanations for, well, almost everything (particularly his claim that he and Pettitte never discussed HGH); committee members' tortured lines of questioning regarding, well, almost everything. Not exactly a roomful of federal prosecutors.

FINAL VERDICT: Took a worse beating than the truth, and that's really saying something.

OVERALL GRADE: F-

Rep. Dan Burton, R-Ind.

HIGH POINT: Pointing out that the hearing was a circus, and that America has a penchant for trial-by-media.

LOW POINT: Doing his best -- "This is disgusting! Oh, another lie! Clemens is a baseball titan! Gee whiz, are you kidding me?" -- to ensure that the hearing was both a circus and a trial-by-media.

FINAL VERDICT: We know one thing we don't believe, and that's Burton's ability to select decent hair-conditioning products.

OVERALL GRADE: B+, for unintentional irony

Rep. Stephen Lynch, D-Mass.

HIGH POINT: Thorough, scientific examination of Clemens' buttocks abscess.

LOW POINT: Thorough, scientific examination of Clemens' buttocks abscess.

FINAL VERDICT: Offhandedly mentioned that Canseco told Congress that he and Clemens had numerous conversations about stacking and cycling steroids. But never mind that. More abscess!

OVERALL GRADE: F

The Third Ear

HIGH POINT: Whenever a member asked a witness to speak up or move closer to the microphone; whenever a witness asked a member to repeat the question. And to think: Clemens made third ears sound like something bad.

LOW POINT: Wasn't actually mentioned during the hearing.

FINAL VERDICT: How could Congress be oh-so-worried about past statements and witness credibility, yet NOT ask Clemens about this?

OVERALL GRADE: Incomplete

Vitamin B-12

HIGH POINT: If it's good enough for Roger's mom, it's good enough for us.

LOW POINT: Roger might want to consider telling people he has anemia, Alzheimer's, and is also becoming a vegan.

FINAL VERDICT: All fun and games until someone gets a palpable mass in his hindquarters.

OVERALL GRADE: C

Rep. Tom Davis, R-Va.

HIGH POINT: Abscess? Try palpable mass.

LOW POINT: Making a horrible pun/joke about "lynching" (he even used air quotes!). Quick, somebody slam Tiger Woods for not speaking out on this!

FINAL VERDICT: Appears to share Rep. Burton's hairstylist and his post-hearing flop sweat when he met the press brought back memories of Doc Gooden on the hill in the late '80s.

OVERALL GRADE: C

Rep. Mark Souder, R-Ind.

HIGH POINT: National appeal to start snitchin'

LOW POINT: Said "one last thing" and kept talking at least three times while wrapping up remarks.

FINAL VERDICT: Intelligent post-hearings interview on ESPN makes you wonder how Rep. Burton even hails from the same state.

OVERALL GRADE: A-

The MLBPA

HIGH POINT: After Clemens was asked whether he was angry at the union for not informing him about letters from Mitchell's investigators, he declined to throw Donald Fehr and Co. under the bus -- a courtesy he did not extend to his wife, mom, nanny, agent, lawyers, investigators, Pettitte, McNamee and probably a half-dozen others we're probably forgetting to mention.

LOW POINT: Came off as slightly hard to deal with.

FINAL VERDICT: Who cares? Salaries go up every year.

OVERALL GRADE: A

Rep. William Lacy Clay, D-Mo.

HIGH POINT: Gratuitously (if indirectly) crushing Sammy Sosa for "temporarily forgetting his ability to speak English" at a previous hearing.

LOW POINT: Letting Clemens speak in the royal we while prattling on about not having a car in high school, running home two miles uphill every day, working his butt off, his hatred of the phrase "pampered athlete" and refusing to let "someone in the room" break his spirit. Yawn. Want some cheese?

FINAL VERDICT: Tried to look like less of a fanboy by attributing his "what uniform will you wear to the Hall of Fame?" question to a colleague, which only made it doubly embarrassing.

OVERALL GRADE: D-

Rusty Hardin

HIGH POINT: "THAT'S WHAT ANY LAWYER IN THE FREE WORLD WOULD DO!"

LOW POINT: Subsequently attempting to stare down Rep. Waxman. Good luck with that.

FINAL VERDICT: Hardin's criminal defense practice just got about $2 million in free advertising. And out-grandstanding a group of congressmen is no easy thing.

OVERALL GRADE: B+

Rep. John Duncan, R-Tenn.

HIGH POINT: Reminding America that Congress is "working on major issues, too."

LOW POINT: Admitted to reading Parade Magazine.

FINAL VERDICT: Saddened by what he heard from McNamee, because he used to be a minor league batboy, and "there's a special bond between batboys and trainers." Huh?

OVERALL GRADE: D-

Rep. Bruce Braley, D-Iowa

HIGH POINT: Mentioned that his son was watching the hearings on ESPN. Thanks for the free plug!

LOW POINT: When Clemens answered one of his medical-themed questions with: "I laid down on the table ... the guy jumped on me like he was trying to start a Harley-Davidson ... McNamee told me that he should be doing that for me." Actually, that was another high point.

FINAL VERDICT: Seemed well-informed. Not something we expect from our duly-elected officials.

OVERALL GRADE: B

Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif.

HIGH POINT: "P-H-D must stand for piling higher and deeper." Oh, snap! What writers' strike?

LOW POINT: McNamee's asking for free Under Armor shirts equals no credibility. Um, don't congressmen ask for free money from constituents all the time?

FINAL VERDICT: After Issa mentioned that his mom got a B-12 shot, Braley shot him a death stare. We could relate.

OVERALL GRADE: F

Rep. Virginia Foxx, R-N.C.

HIGH POINT: "Mr. Clemens, I am not an expert in any of these issues ... "

LOW POINT: "... but you appear to be the same size in all of these photos."

FINAL VERDICT: As the cameras faded to black you could see Rep. Foxx touching Clemens' arm and shaking his hand (seriously). And did she have expressed written consent from Major League Baseball to make that poster? Someone should subpoena the Kinkos guy.

OVERALL GRADE: F

[JMS]

You've taken blindly stubborn to the next level.

So his trainer was hitting everyone around him in the ass.

Science shows He has abscesses in his ass from the same thing.

yet still... denial.

Thiebear, you can't diagnose HGH use or Steroid use with an MRI. It's silly to even attempt it. Much less do it a decade after the fact.

What exactly does abscesses in his ass mean. It means he like 90% of all adult males he has butt zits. Jesus does that mean everybody with but zits is taking steroids. I think not. If every congressman sittign there dropped trou I bet they all had but zits too. I don't think that proves anything.

Stringing together bad or make believe evidence doesn't make it more creditable.

[JMS]

The congressional hearings have come and gone, and in case you haven't quite figured it out yet, here's the lesson we all learned Wednesday: It matters little if you're right or wrong ... it's how you come across when the cameras are rolling.

That's where you are wrong. Coming across good in front of the cameras is a learned skill. It's a skill which can be tought independent of guilt.

The only thing that is important in decideing whether to disrespect Clemens is is the evidence against him creditable.

In this case it's not. Not by a long long shot.

Brian McNamee

HIGH POINT: Every time Roger Clemens answered a question.

LOW POINT: When Rep. Christopher Shays, R-Conn., refused to agree to disagree.

FINAL VERDICT: Even though he looked like he physically shrank as the day went on, the overall consensus from Sen. Mitchell to the Feds is that he's the most honest of all the liars. What an honor.

GRADE: C-

You give McNamee a higher grade than Clemens? McNamee who is a serial lier, a documented confirmed lier over the last decade. A man who's entire career is based on fraud. Who currently preys upon kids feeding them false hope along with his false credentials, and likely still deals steroids to those youth. McNamee who lied to federal investigators twice commiting purjery, and even lied during the hearings!!

Dude that's crazy....

McNamee is the only one who is a proven liar in that room, everybody elses statements were plausible.

[Dictator]

JMS,

Do you believe Clemens lied at all during the hearings?

[JMS]

JMS,

Do you believe Clemens lied at all during the hearings?

I see no credable evidence which suggests Clemens did steroids. The only person who was proven to be a liar during those proceedings, proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, was McNamee. A guy who has been lieing continously for more than a decade, A guy who lied to every person he presented himself too professionally. A guy who lied to federal investigators. A guy who lied to the congressional comittee during the hearing yesterday.

If they wanted to charge somebody with purgery, they could have had McNamee several times. He didn't even have "the definition of is is" defense.

I think the guy trying to diagnose steroid use with a decade old MRI reading was pretty dishonest too. What an idiot. I'd like to know his credentials too.

[Dictator]

^Nothing you just typed answered the question

Yes or no.

do you think Clemens lied during the proceedings?

[EersSkins05]

This is pointless. We have led him to the trough and yet he will not sup.

Anyone that equates an abscess "the size of a golf ball" to random everyday "butt zits" and doesn't believe that Congress and their medical expert would know the difference (but he does!) is so far beyond denial that it's not even worth trying any more.

I think it's time to lay the proper categorization on him.

[JMS]

^Nothing you just typed answered the question

Yes or no.

do you think Clemens lied during the proceedings?

I think I said the only person who was proven to have lied yesterday was McNamee. I think that answers your question.

Clemens was asked once if he ever discussed steroids with Pettite. To which he replied incorrectly No. When given the date, time and context of the eight year old conversation which Clemens and Pettite both called a conversation in passing, Clemens recalled the conversation.

I do think it's reasonable not to recall a single conversation eight years after the fact. I do not think that means Clemons lied.

[Thiebear]

I think I said the only person who was proven to have lied yesterday was McNamee. I think that answers your question.

When you read the medical report on his ass, you got out of that: pimples?

ok...

And there are yes and no answers to things..

You say Clemens incorrectly answered no? That sounds like a lie to me?

[JMS]

This is pointless. We have led him to the trough and yet he will not sup.

Anyone that equates an abscess "the size of a golf ball" to random everyday "butt zits" and doesn't believe that Congress and their medical expert would know the difference (but he does!) is so far beyond denial that it's not even worth trying any more.

Jesus.... Like steroids cause abseses? Noooooo... Dirty needles could cause abseses, and Clemons said McNamee shot him up with litocain and B-12...

Nobody said Clemens had abseses the size of golf balls. And nobody in the world would or could use an MRI machine to diagnose steroid use.

The MRI guy said Clemons had abseses on his ass. Butt Zits. Then Contee's statement was read into the record saying they could be injection sites. :doh:

They could be butt zits, they could be B-12 or Linocain injections too.

The point is Butt Zitts even when looked at with an MRI are not evidence of steroids..... Ever wonder why Clemens was having MRI's done on his ass at the time? Could be he had a pulled muscle or some injury? An injury could explain linocain injection sites even though they wouldn't be shown on an MRI.

Fact is there is no reason Clemens would be MRIing his ass if he wasn't injured, and there is no way to diagnose steroid use with an MRI.

And you think I'm wearing a tinfoil hat?

[jbooma]

Jesus.... Like steroids cause abseses? Noooooo... Dirty needles could cause abseses, and Clemons said McNamee shot him up with litocain and B-12...

The Dr said steroids does not litocain and B12

JMS the funny thing is you are the ONLY person that believes clemens, since he knows he is lying as well as his lawyer. Remember if he was innocent from the beginning why did he wait 10 days to say anything??

They were creating their strategy because he lied. Andy Petitte said UNDER OATH he told him he took them.

I think it is safe to say you are not in the law profession since you can't see through the crap that all of us see.

[Dictator]

So..

Pettite claims in 1999 or 2000 that Clemens told him he was using hgh.

in 2005 clemens denies to pettite that that's what he said. Instead telling pettite he means his wife was using HGH. BUT, Clemens wife wasing using hgh in 1999 or 2000. He said she used it in 2003.

How about Clemens telling congress a number of times he never had a discussion with Mcnamee about HGH, then later retracting that after his wifes HGH use brought up?

[JMS]

When you read the medical report on his ass, you got out of that: pimples?

They were identified as abseses. That is a pimple, or a zit. Nobody said they were the size of golf balls. Rather Victer Contee's statements were read into testimony after the MRI guy identified Clemens butt zits as abseses. Contee said steroids could cause abseses the size of golf balls.

And there are yes and no answers to things..

You say Clemens incorrectly answered no? That sounds like a lie to me?

No it doesn't sound like a lie. It was a single conversation which he failed to remember eight years after the fact until it was put in context. I wouldn't call that a lie. I would call that a reasonable lapse in memory. I don't remember conversations from this morning.....

Still I agree that this conversation is the most damning evidence against Clemens. It's just not very damning.

Again it's not comparable to McNamee who failed to remember he was advertising his business with Clemens and Pettites likenesses three months ago without their permission. It's not like McNamee who identified himself as a phd to federal investigators, then told the committe that he only found out his University, which he never visited, was a paper mill between the time he lied to federal investigators and testifying before congress, a decade after the recieving the certificate.

It's not like McNamee who currently runs a business for highschool prospects where he identifies himself as a Doctor of sports medicine....

There is enough to charge McNamee with purjury. If congress could make positive headlines with that charge it would be a done deal.

[Thiebear]

I don't remember conversations from this morning.....

Still I agree that conversation is the most damning evidence against Clemens.

Now were getting somewhere. Go back over the last 4 pages that you have mis-remembered and re-read them... it should come back to you then.

[Dictator]

Additionally,

For you to equate an abscess with acne is ignorant and uninformed.