On Clemons and steroids.

[Predicto]

Ok so you don't think "Dr" McNamee who twice lied to federal investigators while acusing Clemons cast any doubt on his acusations against Clemons. A guy who has misrepresented his credentials for going on two decades and lied to get most of the jobs he's gotten including his trainer job with the yankees.

Why do you think the Yankees hired him? Because of his amazing credentials?

Or because they needed someone able to get steroids and the HGH to the players while they closed their eyes to what was going on, perhaps?

I would say you are the biased one, if you can make that statement.

Petite is the only damning testomony against Cleamons and his testimony is so inconclusive it just cann't stand on it's own. A single two minute conversation between best friends almost a decade old. Clemons says they were discussing a TV show on HGH. Pettite claims Clemons confessed HGH use..

You really seem to want to apply a very restrictive view of what evidence may be considered here and what weight it can be given. There is no "exclusionary" rule in the court of public opinion. Dude is guilty in my eyes, same as Bonds and all the rest.

[Dictator]

I don't think he did. He produced a plastic bag with an empty crushed beer can in it. I think McNamee knows that they can't get any evidence off this evidence and even if they could it wouldn't prove anything either way. I think "Dr." McNamee a former police drug task force officer knows the evidence is just one more prop so he and his testomony won't have to stand on it's own.

It's hard for me to believe a retired police officer wouldn't know anything about how to handle evidence.

It's hard for me to believe if McNamee really thought of this as evidence he would have stored it for a decade with a beer can.

Why do you think he kept this material which in it's present condition can't be used to prove anything, but claims it proves his testimony.

And if they get clemens DNA off the needles, will you rationalize that as well?

[Heidenreich]

Why do you think the Yankees hired him? Because of his amazing credentials?

Bingo.

They hired him because Clemens wanted him. He was his personal trainer/pharmacist......

[JMS]

I might be wrong, but from what I gathered, a lot of what Mcnamee lied about to investigators, is centered around not giving up ALL the information he had.

He wasn't claiming that he shot up Ichirio and that was proven to be a lie.

What I heard McNamee lie about was his PHD. He has a business and represents himself as a PHD, but he isn't.

He got a certificate out of a mail order catalog from a "non acredited University" which he never visited.

He claims he only found out that his mail order University was not acredited and thus he could not legally claim to be either a Dr or a PHD until after he spoke to investigators almost a decade after he first started calling himself PHD. Which I didn't find creditable. The fact that he represented himself to federal prosecutors orginally as a PHD would make him liable to purjury and lieing to federal prosecutors himself if he didn't conviently claim ignorace....

Like you can get a phd out of the back of field and stream and not know it's a sham.

He also lied to prosecutors and even to the comitte claiming he had not used Roger Clemon's name and likeness without his permission. "Dr." McNamee runs a business which he claims he can help young prospects similarly to how he helped Roger Clemons as a trainer with the Yankees. He's got a big old picture of Roger in his wind up on his advertisment.

Those were the lies which I saw him confronted with during his testimony.

The man has bascially misrepresented himself for his entire "trainer" career.

[JMS]

Why do you think the Yankees hired him? Because of his amazing credentials?

I think the yankees hired hims because he represented himself as having a PHD in sports medicine. which was not true. I think the job with the yanks gave him credibility with Clemons and Pettite. The dude is basically a scumbag.

Or because they needed someone able to get steroids and the HGH to the players while they closed their eyes to what was going on, perhaps?

The fact is the yanks hired a phd to be a sports trainer. And he wasn't. The guy traded on his yankee relationship and phd to get follow up private consultations with the players, not just Clemons but also Petite and others. Clemons didn't introduce him to the yanks, Clemons met him through the yanks.

You really seem to want to apply a very restrictive view of what evidence may be considered here and what weight it can be given. There is no "exclusionary" rule in the court of public opinion. Dude is guilty in my eyes, same as Bonds and all the rest.

Yeah, but he isn't the same as Bonds. There is overwhelming evidence against bonds, in addition to the confession.

There isn't much creditable evidence at all against Roger. An eight year old conversation with a good friend, who worked with Roger on a daily basis. And the word of an serial liar.

[JMS]

Bingo.

They hired him because Clemens wanted him. He was his personal trainer/pharmacist......

Is that true? He was a trainer with the yankees before clemons joined the team. Cleamons met him through the yanks, not the other way around.

Clemons thought he was a PHD, and that's how he represented himself. The dude was a con man.

[PleaseBlitz]

You are right. I am baised. I've grown up following Cleamon's career. I went to school in boston when he took the socks to the World Series in the late 1980's. I am also cursed with having to both justify my opoinions to myself, and give someone a benefit of innocents before proven guilty..

Having said that, I'm wondering how the hell anybody can claim Clemons is guilty.

There just isn't any creditable evidence against him.

It's all hearsay and the word of an admitted serial liar. Where is the Beef?

#1, its "Clemens."

#2, being "innocent until proven guilty" is for a court of law. This isnt a court of law, its a court of public opinion.

#3, there is plenty of credible evidence against him, you just dont want to believe it. Andy Petitte's testimony, whether you want to believe it or not, is extremely credible because he has a good reason to PROTECT his good friend, not testify AGAINST him.

#4, i REALLY hope this isnt another case of Boston sports fans being Boston sports fans.

[JMS]

And if they get clemens DNA off the needles, will you rationalize that as well?

Clemons says Dr McNamee shot him with B-12. I don't think the 7 year old suringes stored with a beer can will yeild any DNA and McNamee knows it. I also don't think they prove anything if they do have Clemon's DNA on them. I mean Clemons has admitted he let "Dr." Mcnamee give him shots.

[jbooma]

It's hard for me to believe if McNamee really thought of this as evidence he would have stored it for a decade with a beer can.

Why do you think he kept this material which in it's present condition can't be used to prove anything, but claims it proves his testimony.

he is a cop if you prove clemens dna is all over everything you can reconstruct the crime scene

the guy knows how to handle evidence i wouldn't think he would fabricate it

you have seen cases where 10 years later they can not get dna out of the evidence, this is the same thing

[jbooma]

Clemons says Dr McNamee shot him with B-12. I don't think the 7 year old suringes stored with a beer can will yeild any DNA and McNamee knows it. I also don't think they prove anything if they do have Clemon's DNA on them. I mean Clemons has admitted he let "Dr." Mcnamee give him shots.

B12 does not give a reaction like Clemens had on his ass, steroids does :doh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

if clemen is so sure about everything then why hasn't he 1. taking a lie dector, and 2. give his dna

he knows he is guility and his lawyer is advising him not to

[PleaseBlitz]

Is that true? He was a trainer with the yankees before clemons joined the team. Cleamons met him through the yanks, not the other way around.

Clemons thought he was a PHD, and that's how he represented himself. The dude was a con man.

No. They met in Toronto in 98. McNamee followed Clemens to every team he went to thereafter.

[WVUforREDSKINS]

If it was McName against Clemons, I'd agree.

But lets see what we have.

Clemons traininer "He took Steriods"

Clemons best friend "I took them, and Clemons told me he took them"

Clemons wife "I took them as well"

Clemons "By Best Friend and my wife took them. My Trainer was giving it out.

Don't forget about the family pet.

[Heidenreich]

Is that true? He was a trainer with the yankees before clemons joined the team. Cleamons met him through the yanks, not the other way around.

Clemons thought he was a PHD, and that's how he represented himself. The dude was a con man.

Incorrect. They met in Toronto. The whole canseco lunch bonanza was during 1998, When Clemens played for the Blue Jays

"McNamee, 40, worked as assistant strength and conditioning coach with the Yankees in 2000 and '01 after serving as the Toronto Blue Jays' strength and conditioning coach in 1998. "

[Dictator]

Clemons says Dr McNamee shot him with B-12. I don't think the 7 year old suringes stored with a beer can will yeild any DNA and McNamee knows it. I also don't think they prove anything if they do have Clemon's DNA on them. I mean Clemons has admitted he let "Dr." Mcnamee give him shots.

so then, you have already begun rationalizing.

I have only 1 more question....

Why do you ignore the lies Clemens told but focus on the lies MCnamee told?

[JMS]

#2, being "innocent until proven guilty" is for a court of law. This isnt a court of law, its a court of public opinion.

Ok so you're fine with just proclaiming him guilty without any meaningful criteria other than hearsay and heard mentality. Fine gotcha.. at least you spell good.

#3, there is plenty of credible evidence against him, you just dont want to believe it. Andy Petitte's testimony, whether you want to believe it or not, is extremely credible because he has a good reason to PROTECT his good friend, not testify AGAINST him.

A single eight year old conversation between best friends who spoke to each other almost daily. A conversation which 'Clemens' claims sprang from viewing a TV show on HGH. A conversation Clemens claims Pettite didn't remember correctly, and Pettite gave in a deposition which Cleamons was not able to confront.

#4, i REALLY hope this isnt another case of Boston sports fans being Boston sports fans.

On the contrary I think Bill Belichek should be whipped. I don't like Tom Brady. I just don't see why anybody is listening to this bogus case against Clemons. Hate the guy for being sucessful, but don't convict him because you hate the guy for his sucess.

[mardi gras skin]

Wow. The Pettitte testimony Jbooma posted (source?) is damning.

"In 1999 or 2000, I had a conversation with Roger Clemens in which Roger told me that he had taken human growth hormone This conversation occurred at his gym in Memorial, Texas. He did not tell me where he got the HGH or from whom, but he did tell me that it helped the body recover," the affidavit said.

"Shortly after my conversation with Roger, I spoke with Brian McNamee. Only he and I were parties to the conversation. I asked Brian about HGH and told him that Roger said he had used it. Brian McNamee became angry. He told me that Roger should not have told me about his HGH use because it was supposed to be confidential. While I don't remember if Brian told me that he supplied Roger with HGH, it certainly was my impression from the conversation that he did."

_ Pettitte

[EersSkins05]

Ok, let's just set out exactly the evidence. Pay very close attention, JMS and like-minded Clemens supporters. There is NO POSSIBLE WAY that a reasonable person can conclude that Clemens is innocent. (This isn't conjecture- this is what happened yesterday.)

1) Clemens' medical records from his time in Toronto demonstrate that the Blue Jays' team doctors found absesses on both of his butt cheeks.

Clemens claims that it was a muscle strain or a B-12 shot he got a week earlier. He obviously only got a shot in 1 cheek, and the MRI's show no muscle strain. These documents were shown to one of the leading MRI doctors in the US who gave his expert opinion that the absess was caused by steroids, not B-12 or a muscle strain.

That's medical evidence, and an unbiased, impecably credentialed doctor telling you that Clemens was using steroids when with the Blue Jays.

2) Clemens' two best friends prior to the Mitchell Report were Andy Pettitte and Brian McNamee, and they testified against him.

Fact.

His two best friends have both gone before Congress and testified that he took steroids, and admitted it to them.

If he's innocent, with friends like these, who needs enemies?

3) McNamee was going to jail if he didn't tell the truth about who he gave steroids to.

If ANY of his story didn't hold true, he goes to jail. Additionally, as of the time of the Mitchell investigation, McNamee was STILL EMPLOYED BY CLEMENS, giving him a strong incentive not to rat out and destroy the career of the guy that was still paying him.

4) McNamee testified that he gave steroids to 3 people, Clemens, Pettitte, and Chuck Knobloch (sp?). 2 of those people have confirmed that his testimony was 100% true.

The 3rd person is Clemens.

5) Clemens admitted that his wife took HGH from McNamee as well.

So now you've got his best friend and his wife both taking HGH from HIS personal trainer, but he's "SHOCKED" to learn that they're taking it? Either he's the most clueless friend/husband of all time, or he's lying. I'm guessing the latter.

6) Clemens was caught lying on the record several times

Most notably when he said he'd never talked to Pettitte about steroids, then vividly recalled several discussions with Pettitte about steroids about 30 minutes later.

So exactly what more do you need? His best friends testify against him, a doctor gives an expert opinion that the spot on his ass in his medical records can only be steroids, and he's caught lying on the record.

There isn't room for disagreement. Not for any sane, unbiased observer.

[mardi gras skin]

JMS, why haven't you addressed Pettitte's testimony. Do you think he's lying too?

[PleaseBlitz]

Ok so you're fine with just proclaiming him guilty without any meaningful criteria other than hearsay and heard mentality. Fine gotcha.. at least you spell good.

Im not saying he should go to jail. But im saying ive seen more than enough to realize that he used. Its pretty clear.

A single eight year old conversation between best friends who spoke to each other almost daily. A conversation which 'Clemens' claims sprang from viewing a TV show on HGH. A conversation Clemens claims Pettite didn't remember correctly, and Pettite gave in a deposition which Cleamons was not able to confront.

Yes, a single conversation where Roger Clemens admits to using HGH. And Clemens HAS been able to confront it, didnt you listen to the freaking hearing? Jesus, have you paid attention at all to what has been said over the past 2 days? Get your facts straight then come back.

On the contrary I think Bill Belichek should be whipped. I don't like Tom Brady. I just don't see why anybody is listening to this bogus case against Clemons. Hate the guy for being sucessful, but don't convict him because you hate the guy for his sucess.

I LIKE Roger Clemens. Always have. But he's lying his ass off this week, and its obvious.

[jbooma]

JMS, why haven't you addressed Pettitte's testimony. Do you think he's lying too?

This is all on espn.

more testimony:

"I have to tell you all the truth," Pettitte said in his deposition last week, which was released after Wednesday's congressional hearing. "I have to live with myself. And one day I have to give an account to God and not to nobody else of what I've done in my life. And that's why I've said and shared the stuff with y'all that I've shared with y'all today that I wouldn't like to share with y'all."

this was his comment about his testimony:

"Andy has fully answered all of the inquiries of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform in a sworn deposition. He cooperated fully with the Committee, and in addition to his sworn deposition, he provided the Committee with a sworn affidavit.

I love Rogers explanation:

"He misheard ... misremembers," said Clemens.

how pathetic :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[PleaseBlitz]

Ok, let's just set out exactly the evidence. Pay very close attention, JMS and like-minded Clemens supporters. There is NO POSSIBLE WAY that a reasonable person can conclude that Clemens is innocent. (This isn't conjecture- this is what happened yesterday.)

1) Clemens' medical records from his time in Toronto demonstrate that the Blue Jays' team doctors found absesses on both of his butt cheeks.

Clemens claims that it was a muscle strain or a B-12 shot he got a week earlier. He obviously only got a shot in 1 cheek, and the MRI's show no muscle strain. These documents were shown to one of the leading MRI doctors in the US who gave his expert opinion that the absess was caused by steroids, not B-12 or a muscle strain.

That's medical evidence, and an unbiased, impecably credentialed doctor telling you that Clemens was using steroids when with the Blue Jays.

2) Clemens' two best friends prior to the Mitchell Report were Andy Pettitte and Brian McNamee, and they testified against him.

Fact.

His two best friends have both gone before Congress and testified that he took steroids, and admitted it to them.

If he's innocent, with friends like these, who needs enemies?

3) McNamee was going to jail if he didn't tell the truth about who he gave steroids to.

If ANY of his story didn't hold true, he goes to jail. Additionally, as of the time of the Mitchell investigation, McNamee was STILL EMPLOYED BY CLEMENS, giving him a strong incentive not to rat out and destroy the career of the guy that was still paying him.

4) McNamee testified that he gave steroids to 3 people, Clemens, Pettitte, and Chuck Knobloch (sp?). 2 of those people have confirmed that his testimony was 100% true.

The 3rd person is Clemens.

5) Clemens admitted that his wife took HGH from McNamee as well.

So now you've got his best friend and his wife both taking HGH from HIS personal trainer, but he's "SHOCKED" to learn that they're taking it? Either he's the most clueless friend/husband of all time, or he's lying. I'm guessing the latter.

6) Clemens was caught lying on the record several times

Most notably when he said he'd never talked to Pettitte about steroids, then vividly recalled several discussions with Pettitte about steroids about 30 minutes later.

So exactly what more do you need? His best friends testify against him, a doctor gives an expert opinion that the spot on his ass in his medical records can only be steroids, and he's caught lying on the record.

There isn't room for disagreement. Not for any sane, unbiased observer.

Leave it to the lawyer.

:laugh:

[jbooma]

Leave it to the lawyer.

:laugh:

he misremembered about his ass :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

i love that word

[JMS]

he is a cop if you prove clemens dna is all over everything you can reconstruct the crime scene

I heard and FBI forensics expert say that DNA evidence that old stored in the fashion that it was would be pretty much worthless.

the guy knows how to handle evidence i wouldn't think he would fabricate it

McNamee told Waxman in testomony yesterday that he wasn't aware of rules of evidence. Even though he used to be a cop.

you have seen cases where 10 years later they can not get dna out of the evidence, this is the same thing

Doesn't make sense to me they got DNA out of dinosaur blood in that speilburg movie. But I did hear the FBI forensic guy say he doubted that any useful dna evidence could be gotten from the evidence it was stored so poorly. But even it it did have DNA on it, what will that prove. Clemens has already said "Dr" McNamee gave him B-12 shots.

What's your thought McNamee kept this material for a decade in a trash bag with trash for "insurance"/ blackmail? Like that makes McNamee more credible?

[JMS]

Ok, let's just set out exactly the evidence. Pay very close attention, JMS and like-minded Clemens supporters. There is NO POSSIBLE WAY that a reasonable person can conclude that Clemens is innocent. (This isn't conjecture- this is what happened yesterday.)

OK let's do it.

1) Clemens' medical records from his time in Toronto demonstrate that the Blue Jays' team doctors found absesses on both of his butt cheeks.

That's medical evidence, and an unbiased, impecably credentialed doctor telling you that Clemens was using steroids when with the Blue Jays.

Clemens had butt zits? That's your evidence? Jesus, I'm on steroids EersKins05 can prove it.

How about an expert claiming that you can use an MRI to diagnose steroid use... How exactly does that work?

2) Clemens' two best friends prior to the Mitchell Report were Andy Pettitte and Brian McNamee, and they testified against him.

Fact.

His two best friends have both gone before Congress and testified that he took steroids, and admitted it to them.

McNamee's primary business is working with up coming talent trading on his relationships with Clemens, Petite and his MLB experience. McNamee is also a self promoter....

Petite entire tesomony is based on a single short conversation eight years ago. Petite is Clemens best friend and has worked with him on a daily basis for almost a decade. And that's what Petite bases his testimony on. Very flimsy. 1 conversation, that's it.

Is it possible there could be a misunderstanding over a single conversation which occured eight years in the past. Certainly there is. It's freaking likely.

3) McNamee was going to jail if he didn't tell the truth about who he gave steroids to.

If ANY of his story didn't hold true, he goes to jail. Additionally, as of the time of the Mitchell investigation, McNamee was STILL EMPLOYED BY CLEMENS, giving him a strong incentive not to rat out and destroy the career of the guy that was still paying him.

McNamee lied to federal investigators on numerous occassions he was caught in a lie during the hearings yesterday. McNamee's entire credentials are lies. If McNamee would go to jail for not telling the truth he would be in jail today. I'm sorry "Dr." McNamee came across as a lieing scum bag.

5) Clemens admitted that his wife took HGH from McNamee as well.

So now you've got his best friend and his wife both taking HGH from HIS personal trainer, but he's "SHOCKED" to learn that they're taking it? Either he's the most clueless friend/husband of all time, or he's lying. I'm guessing the latter.

That is weird, but Clemens said he didn't know about his wifes one time use of the drugs from "Dr." McNamee until after it happenned. Everybody agree's it never happenned again. This doesn't prove Clemons used drugs. What it proves is McNamee felt comfortable speeking too and injecting Clemen's wife without Clemens present.

It proves to me "Dr." McNamee is likely a bigger scum bag than I even originally believed.

I mean how exactly does that work. The guy has no credentials and he's getting Clemen's wife to drop her pants when Clemens isn't there and is injecting her with ilegal steroids... It's like "Dr." McNamee's magic elixer.

Is that really a knock on Clemens? Or is it another channel marker for McNamee's series of scumbag moves?

6) Clemens was caught lying on the record several times

Most notably when he said he'd never talked to Pettitte about steroids, then vividly recalled several discussions with Pettitte about steroids about 30 minutes later.

So because Clemens didn't immediately remember an eight year old conversation with Pettite which he and petite both claimed was in passing, he's a liar.

• But when McNamee forgets he wasn't a PHD that's an honest mistake.
  
• When McNamee forgets he's currently using Clemens likeness in published advertisements for his business without permission that's an honest mistake.
  
• When McNamee claims he just figured out his post graduate mail order degree was from an unacredited university which he never physically visited after he lied to prosecutors about it, a decade after he started calling himself Dr. ; that's creditable.
  

So exactly what more do you need? His best friends testify against him, a doctor gives an expert opinion that the spot on his ass in his medical records can only be steroids, and he's caught lying on the record.

There isn't room for disagreement. Not for any sane, unbiased observer.

I would like someone creditable saying he saw Clemens shooting up. A single creditable person who himself wasn't an admitted serial lieing drug pushing scumbag. I would like a recollection of a conversation which wasn't two minutes eight years ago. I would like a confession like we have from Barry Bonds. I would like a paper trail. I would like anybody with credibility saying he had first hand knowledge of Clemens using steroids..

Any of the above would be something, but we have nothing.

I guess I'm asking for too much.

[JMS]

I love Rogers explanation:

"He misheard or misremembered the conversation"

how pathetic :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Yeah how pathetic... How could Pettite posible have misheard or misremembered a conversation in passing eight years ago. A conversation never repeated over an eight year period by his best friend who he saw almost daily. A subject Pettite didn't bring up with his best friend Roger even when Pettite two years later experimented with HGH.