To Set The Record Straight: How the Swift Boat Veterans Defeated John Kerry

[Kelvin Bryant]

I'll try again (although there's no point, because as an editor and writer you have clearly taken sides and have shown no bent towards neutrality or objectivity.)

I don't claim to be neutral. I do claim to be accurate.

They were finded by Republicans strictly to benefit the Bush and Cheney Campaign. The funding did not coincide by accident during the Presidential election. Kerry has served the nation as a Senator for a looooooooooong time. If this was just about getting the truth out, then it could, should have been made an issue in the 80's and nineties. The reason this was made an issue then was to aid Bush.

There's no doubt that some of the Republicans who funded the Swift Vets intended to help Bush by doing so. But the motives of their donors is largely beside the point. My statement, which you don't like but haven't refuted, is that the Swift Vets themselves were not controlled by nor working with the Republican Party.

[Burgold]

Oh, and congrats on getting a book published

That's not easy to do.

[Mad Mike]

I'll try again (although there's no point, because as an editor and writer you have clearly taken sides and have shown no bent towards neutrality or objectivity.)

They were finded by Republicans strictly to benefit the Bush and Cheney Campaign. The funding did not coincide by accident during the Presidential election. Kerry has served the nation as a Senator for a looooooooooong time. If this was just about getting the truth out, then it could, should have been made an issue in the 80's and nineties. The reason this was made an issue then was to aid Bush.

The funders of this Swiftboat effort were also major contributors to George Bush and the GOP were they not? They had links to people within the GOP did they not? Saying that Bush and Cheney didn't know about this is like saying the Commissioner had no clue that Steroids had ever been used in baseball prior to the Mitchell Report. There's just no credulity behind the statement. You can make it through legalize or technicalities, but not in reality.

So some republicans helped fund them. They still told the truth. Kerry is a liar and POS.

[Kelvin Bryant]

Kerry has served the nation as a Senator for a looooooooooong time. If this was just about getting the truth out, then this info could, should have been made an issue in the 80's and nineties. In fact, it was, but was discredited back then.

Forgot to address that one. The Swift Vets didn't care whether Kerry was a Senator in Massachusetts; they cared whether he became Commander-in-Chief of the U.S. military. Your claim that their charges were surfaced and discredited in earlier campaigns is simply false.

[ATV]

It's difficult to take someone's opinions seriously when they can't spell "fascist" correctly...

I'm sure with this book of yours that nobody needed to use a spell checker on it.

Kind of ironic, isn't it? Instead of addressing the issue you instead divert the conversation toward something totally fabricated (asserting that I'm unable to spell?). Does this tactic sound familiar? 2004 anyone?

[ZoEd]

McCain is wrong. Steven Gardner was the gunner under Kerry's on PCF-44. Here's what he had to say.

KB the link isn't working.

Just so you know, you are completely owning people in this thread :applause:

I know thats not your intention but damn dude you just keep shutting people down with FACTS instead of "well I heard this and that". Good on you. :applause: People arguing with the facts that you're presenting is a perfect example of people sipping the koolaid.

[Burgold]

There's no doubt that some of the Republicans who funded the Swift Vets intended to help Bush by doing so. But the motives of their donors is largely beside the point. My statement, which you don't like but haven't refuted, is that the Swift Vets themselves were not controlled by nor working with the Republican Party.

Ah, you see we're debating two seperate issues. I do think that the Swift Vets were likely used as pawns during the election, however, I do think that while they probably embellished some (for the sake of drama or due to the haziness of thirty year old memories) that they pretty much believed what they say or at least honestly thought that Kerry was a rat.

Still, attention and money and interest was given to them because they could be used as a propaganda tool.

[Kelvin Bryant]

Oh, and congrats on getting a book published

That's not easy to do.

That's a fact. Thank you. :cool:

[Kelvin Bryant]

KB the link isn't working.

Sorry about that. Here's the correct link again.

Just so you know, you are completely owning people in this thread :applause:

I know thats not your intention but damn dude you just keep shutting people down with FACTS instead of "well I heard this and that". Good on you. :applause: People arguing with the facts that you're presenting is a perfect example of people sipping the koolaid.

Thanks. When you spend two years researching something, you tend to wind up knowing quite a bit about it...

[Burgold]

KB the link isn't working.

Just so you know, you are completely owning people in this thread :applause:

All depends on your perspective probably

Besides, he ought to have more facts, he wrote a book on the subject, he's conducted the interviews, and he's invested a much more serious ammount of time than any of the rest of us.

That we're in the game at all shows that there were some dubious, nefarious, and ugly shenanigans going on.

[Kelvin Bryant]

I'm sure with this book of yours that nobody needed to use a spell checker on it.

Kind of ironic, isn't it? Instead of addressing the issue you instead divert the conversation toward something totally fabricated (asserting that I'm unable to spell?). Does this tactic sound familiar? 2004 anyone?

What issue? You think that Bush and Cheney are fascists. That's not an issue, it's an opinion. My book isn't about Bush and Cheney, it's about the veterans who successfully opposed John Kerry in 2004. Yeah, I know, you're sure it's all a huge conspiracy...

Okay, I really do have to go. Later...

[ZoEd]

I've read a lot about the incident and there is no shortage of eyewitnesses who say there was enemy fire.

For you to conveniently discard those and yet accept the testimony of those who willingly admit they were out for revenge against Kerry because of his Senate testimony only shows that this is not an attempt at an accurate work of historical scholarship, but a partisan smear campaign against someone who served, was injured and was awarded medals for that service by the military chain of command.

Shame on you.

Dude just because someone served and received medals doesn't mean they did some amazing acts of heroism.

I have a Captain in my unit who received a concussion during an IED attack. Hero? He's receiving a Purple Heart for it. Too bad he was the convoy commander and should have never been in the Turret in the first place. He jeopardized his entire convoy by trying to act like John Wayne and get some trigger time.

My Commander and one of our Chiefs both received Bronze Stars and didn't see on minute of combat. The rode around in their air conditioned SUV's and pushed paperwork from their air conditioned offices.

I've got guys who will recieve no medals at all for serving 6 months in extremely hazardous areas taking small arms, mortar and rocket fire several times a day. These guys were working 12+ hours a day in triple digit temps but they didn't play the game and didn't massage the right people so they're left off the list. Medals don't mean ****!

[ZoEd]

That we're in the game at all shows that there were some dubious, nefarious, and ugly shenanigans going on.

I know, it's sad isn't it? The lenghts these politicians will go to get elected is ridiculus. I'm just looking for someone to tell the truth. Honeslty thats more important to me than where they stand on most topics. Just speak the truth for cripes sake.

[Duckus]

What issue? You think that Bush and Cheney are fascists. That's not an issue, it's an opinion. My book isn't about Bush and Cheney, it's about the veterans who successfully opposed John Kerry in 2004. Yeah, I know, you're sure it's all a huge conspiracy...

Okay, I really do have to go. Later...

But you just said...

It details the efforts by CBS News and Dan Rather to attack the National Guard service of GW Bush using forged military documents, and how those forgeries were exposed online by amateur investigators. It's a hell of a story, if I do say so myself...

?? I am missing something, because those statements don't match-up.

If this book is just about the swift boat veterans and their successful opposition to John Kerry in 2004, then why is there a chapter about GW Bush, CBS and HIS military service (not Kerry's). What does that have to do with the SBV or their mission to take down Kerry? That seems like it has to do with the election and politics, and adds to the claim that you were a political pawn to get GW Bush in the White House.

Your statements don't add up.

[The_cavalierman]

Dude just because someone served and received medals doesn't mean they did some amazing acts of heroism.

I have a Captain in my unit who received a concussion during an IED attack. Hero? He's receiving a Purple Heart for it. Too bad he was the convoy commander and should have never been in the Turret in the first place. He jeopardized his entire convoy by trying to act like John Wayne and get some trigger time.

My Commander and one of our Chiefs both received Bronze Stars and didn't see on minute of combat. The rode around in their air conditioned SUV's and pushed paperwork from their air conditioned offices.

I've got guys who will recieve no medals at all for serving 6 months in extremely hazardous areas taking small arms, mortar and rocket fire several times a day. These guys were working 12+ hours a day in triple digit temps but they didn't play the game and didn't massage the right people so they're left off the list. Medals don't mean ****!

ZoEd brings up a Great point!

Their will be plenty of people who are getting medals/citations for doing jack ****. It is very true that some officers were simply in the right place at the right time so they recieved big time medals when they had absolutely zero impact on the action surrounding them.

The military structure does have favorites and it does give some people the shaft. Generally I can tell who has actually seen some real fighting by what unit they were in and how they describe the action. Fakers and REMFs are pretty easy to spot.

[Larry]

John McCain has no direct knowledge of the events involved.

Quoting him therefore fails to carry much weight or inspire any shame...

OK, wheeling out the dead horse one more time . . .

IIR, neither did many of the swifties.

IIR, for example, one of their "qualifications" was that he was a medic at the same time that Kerry was treated for one of his wounds. However, there's no paper evidence that he ever examined Kerry in any way. All that can be proven is that he worked in the same building where Kerry was treated.

Which didn't keep him from swearing, in writing, that he specifically remembered the medical condition of one soldier, who wasn't even one of his patients, 30 years later.

[Mad Mike]

OK, wheeling out the dead horse one more time . . .

IIR, neither did many of the swifties.

IIR, for example, one of their "qualifications" was that he was a medic at the same time that Kerry was treated for one of his wounds. However, there's no paper evidence that he ever examined Kerry in any way. All that can be proven is that he worked in the same building where Kerry was treated.

Which didn't keep him from swearing, in writing, that he specifically remembered the medical condition of one soldier, who wasn't even one of his patients, 30 years later.

SO RESPOND TO THIS:

Statement of RADM (Rear Admiral) William L. Schachte, Jr. USN (Ret.)

August 27, 2004

As was true of all "Swiftees," I volunteered to serve in Vietnam and was assigned to Coastal Division 14 for a normal tour of duty.

I was a Lieutenant serving as Operations Officer and second in command at Coastal Division 14 when Lieutenant (junior grade) John Kerry reported to us in mid-November, 1968. Lt. (jg) Kerry was an Officer-in-Charge (O-in-C) under training in preparing to be assigned as one of our Swift Boat O-in-C's.

At some point following President Johnson's announcement of the suspension of bombing in North Vietnam in March 1968, we were directed to become more aggressive in seeking to find and destroy or disrupt the enemy in our operating area. As part of this effort, I conceived a new operation that became known as "Skimmer OPS." The concept was simple. A 15-foot Boston Whaler was sent into an area where, based on coordinated intelligence, North Vietnamese cadre and Viet Cong were expected to be meeting or where, for example, concentrations of enemy forces might be involved in the movement of arms or munitions. We were to draw fire and quickly get out of the area. This would allow more concentrated firepower to be brought against the enemy forces we had been able to identify.

These operations were carried out only in "hot" areas and well away from any villages or populated areas. A Swift Boat would tow the skimmer to the general area of operations, and the ambush team would then board the skimmer and proceed to the designated area of operations. The Swift Boat would be riding shotgun and standing off, occasionally out of sight, to provide fire support and long-range communications. The Skimmer was powered by an outboard motor, and we carried an FM radio, handheld flares, an M-60 machine gun with a bipod mount, and an M-16 mounted with a starlight scope. If the night was heavily overcast, we brought an M-14 mounted with an infrared scope. We also carried an M-79 single-shot grenade launcher. In addition to our combat gear and flak jackets, we often carried .38-caliber pistols.

The operation consisted of allowing the skimmer to drift silently along shorelines or riverbanks to look or listen for sounds of enemy activity. If activity was identified, we would open fire with our automatic weapons, and if we received fire, we would depart the area as quickly as possible, leaving it to air support or mortar fire from a Swift Boat standing off at a distance to carry out an attack.

I commanded each of these Skimmer operations up to and including the one on the night in question involving Lt. (jg) Kerry. On each of these operations, I was in the skimmer manning the M-60 machine gun. I took with me one other officer and an enlisted man to operate the outboard motor. I wanted another officer because officers, when not on patrol, were briefed daily on the latest intelligence concerning our sector of operations and were therefore more familiar with the current intelligence. Additionally, at these daily briefings, officers debriefed on their patrol areas after returning to port.

On the night of December 2-3, we conducted one of these operations, and Lt. (jg) Kerry accompanied me. Our call sign for that operation was "Batman." I have no independent recollection of the identity of the enlisted man, who was operating the outboard motor. Sometime during the early morning hours, I thought I detected some movement inland. At the time we were so close to land that we could hear water lapping on the shoreline. I fired a hand-held flare, and upon it bursting and illuminating the surrounding area, I thought I saw movement. I immediately opened fire with my M-60. It jammed after a brief burst. Lt. (jg) Kerry also opened fire with his M-16 on automatic, firing in the direction of my tracers. His weapon also jammed. As I was trying to clear my weapon, I heard the distinctive sound of the M-79 being fired and turned to see Lt. (jg) Kerry holding the M-79 from which he had just launched a round. We received no return fire of any kind nor were there any muzzle flashes from the beach. I directed the outboard motor operator to clear the area.

Upon returning to base, I informed my commanding officer, Lt. Cmdr. Grant Hibbard, of the events, informing him of the details of the operation and that we had received no enemy fire. I did not file an "after action" report, as one was only required when there was hostile fire. Soon thereafter, Lt. (jg) Kerry requested that he be put in for a Purple Heart as a result of a small piece of shrapnel removed from his arm that he attributed to the just-completed mission. I advised Lt. Cmdr. Hibbard that I could not support the request because there was no hostile fire. The shrapnel must have been a fragment from the M-79 that struck Lt. (jg) Kerry, because he had fired the M-79 too close to our boat. Lt. Cmdr. Hibbard denied Lt. (jg) Kerry's request. Lt. (jg) Kerry detached our division a few days later to be reassigned to another division. I departed Vietnam approximately three weeks later, and Lt. Cmdr. Hibbard followed shortly thereafter. It was not until years later that I was surprised to learn that Lt. (jg) Kerry had been awarded a Purple Heart for this night.

I did not see Lt. (jg) Kerry in person again for almost 20 years. Sometime in 1988, while I was on Capitol Hill, I ran into him in the basement of the Russell Senate Office Building. I was at that time a Rear Admiral and in uniform. He was about 20 paces away, waiting to catch the underground subway. In a fairly loud voice I called out to him, "Hey, John." He turned, looked at me, came over and said, "Batman!" We exchanged pleasantries for a few minutes, agreed to have lunch sometime in the future, and parted ways. We have not been together since that day.

In March of this year, I was contacted by one of my former swift boat colleagues concerning Douglas Brinkleyπs book about Senator Kerry, "Tour of Duty." I told him that I had not read it. He faxed me a copy of the pages relating to the action on the night of December 2-3, 1968. I was astonished by Senator Kerry's rendition of the facts of that night. Notably, Lt. (jg) Kerry had himself in charge of the operation, and I was not mentioned at all. He also claimed that he was wounded by hostile fire. None of this is accurate.

I know, because I was not only in the boat, but I was in command of the mission. He was never more than several feet away from me at anytime during the operation that night. It is inconceivable that any commanding officer would put an officer in training, who had been in country only a couple of weeks, in charge of such an ambush operation. Had there been enemy action that night, there would have been an after action report filed, which I would have been responsible for filing.

I have avoided talking to media about this issue for months. But, because of the recent media attention, I felt I had to step up to recount my personal experiences concerning this incident.

[Kelvin Bryant]

If this book is just about the swift boat veterans and their successful opposition to John Kerry in 2004, then why is there a chapter about GW Bush, CBS and HIS military service (not Kerry's). What does that have to do with the SBV or their mission to take down Kerry? That seems like it has to do with the election and politics, and adds to the claim that you were a political pawn to get GW Bush in the White House.

Fair question. The scope of the book is a bit wider than just the Swift Vets - it also covers the online conflict between the old and new media during the presidential campaign, largely over what qualified as "news." The key battle in that conflict was the exposure of the "60 Minutes" segment on GW Bush's National Guard service. It's also relevant because the Kerry campaign and the DNC intended to use the story as a political counterattack to reverse the damage the Swift Vets had done to Kerry's poll numbers during the previous month. In fact Bill Burkett, the guy who supplied the phony documents to CBS News, asked CBS producer Mary Mapes to put him in touch with the Kerry campaign so he could advise them on tactics to use against the Swift boat veterans, and she did exactly that.

The chapter (which you can read here) doesn't go into details of Bush's National Guard service; it just tells how the phony documents story was created, coordinated with the Kerry campaign and destroyed by sharp-eyed online researchers.

[The_cavalierman]

What amazes me is that people can hear that Kerry was in country for 4 months and came away as a "war hero" with three purple hears without their BS detectors going off.

I am not trying to bust your chops here MM but....

The amount of action you see in a span of time is based upon your unit and their mission. It is my understanding that PRB units in Vietnam were in heavy action daily so this would not be a BS Alarm situation.

Now if Kerry were a clerk typist or a mess cook and he walked away with a record like that then eyebrows should be raised.

Does that make sense?

[ACW]

The chapter (which you can read here) doesn't go into details of Bush's National Guard service

I wonder why...

[ATV]

The fact remains that John Kerry was a decorated serviceman in Vietnam. The fact remains that George Bush/Dick Cheney spent a combined total of zero seconds in Vietnam. The fact remains that the country is still saddled with another year with these morons in power.

[Kelvin Bryant]

I wonder why...

Because it's off-topic. Do try to follow along...

[Burgold]

I don't claim to be neutral. I do claim to be accurate.

.

Originally Posted by Kelvin Bryant

The chapter (which you can read here) doesn't go into details of Bush's National Guard service

Because it's off-topic. Do try to follow along...

Fair question. The scope of the book is a bit wider than just the Swift Vets - it also covers the online conflict between the old and new media during the presidential campaign, largely over what qualified as "news." The key battle in that conflict was the exposure of the "60 Minutes" segment on GW Bush's National Guard service.

Well, you've certainly targeted your market.

[The_cavalierman]

I really don't know much about this Swift Boat Stuff but I do have a couple of questions for those of you that do know the details.

1. Did the Swift Boat Sailors attempt to expose John Kerry during any of his senatorial runs?

2. I think I read in this thread that the Swift Boat Sailors tried to release their information before but were thwarted by liberal media. Did they cite a source?

I'd appreciate some clarification by someone who knows...

[TheLongshot]

Forgot to address that one. The Swift Vets didn't care whether Kerry was a Senator in Massachusetts; they cared whether he became Commander-in-Chief of the U.S. military. Your claim that their charges were surfaced and discredited in earlier campaigns is simply false.

I wished they cared more about the job the current commander-in-chief is doing and his lies to the American people. Hey, if you feel pride that you and your kept this administration in for another four years, more power to you, I guess.

It is very possible that Kerry's claims could be exaggerated. My father, a Navy pilot in Vietnam, knew a couple of guys who got rated aces, when they might not have deserved it. Course, some of that could also be the fault of the US Government, who was looking for all the heroes they could get. Remember Jessica Lynch? That really got blown out of proportion.

Personally, tho, I think the record of our President overshadows those things.

Jason