Zguy28 Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 At least 4 shot at church in 2nd Colorado attack http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22171718/ COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. - At least four people were shot after a gunman opened fire at a busy Colorado Springs megachurch on Sunday, authorities said. Colorado Springs police Lt. Fletcher Howard said a suspect had been detained in the shootings at the New Life Church, but a source who was locked down at the church Sunday afternoon said a security guard had shot and killed the gunman. A gunman in a black trench coat and a high-powered rifle entered the church's main foyer about 1 p.m. and began shooting, according to the source at the church, who spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because the police department had asked that it release all information. Full article at link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsTerps26 Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 Colorado Springs. A microcosm of whats wrong with America. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUSkinsFan Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 this is a shame, my thoughts and prayers go out to the victims and their families Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwoody86 Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 How often do you find a church security guard with a gun? I guess for good reason. By the way, if it wasn't clear, this is the Ted Haggart church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted December 10, 2007 Author Share Posted December 10, 2007 How often do you find a church security guard with a gun? I guess for good reason.By the way, if it wasn't clear, this is the Ted Haggart church. Yeah, I noticed that was brought up in the article. Kind of reminded me of how the media brought up Sean Taylor's troubles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan133 Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 when will the violence end? we traded riots and protests for wackos with guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 This was related to the earlier shootings. I am starting to get sick of those in the "pro" gun crowd and continue to say we don't have a problem. There has to be a better way to let those continue to own guns keep them, but find a way to get them of the hands of those that will cause harm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan133 Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 This was related to the earlier shootings.I am starting to get sick of those in the "pro" gun crowd and continue to say we don't have a problem. There has to be a better way to let those continue to own guns keep them, but find a way to get them of the hands of those that will cause harm. its a tough issue and there's definatly going to have to be a middle ground compromise, but its going to take alot more tragedies to get the wheels moving. I think that the more likely a weapon can be used to slaughter lots of people the much more regulations should be slapped on it, but no gun should be outlawed or prohibited. background checks and mental screenings for high powered weapons purchases would be a good start. concealed weapons licencess are also a good idea. Florida has an excelent statistical record in favor of Gun Rights after it instituted its right to carry laws, they gave the people that deserved self-protection the ability to do so, and got people carry concealed weapons without a lisense thrown in prison. crime and murder went down and no permit holder (over 200,000) ever commited a violent crime. permit holders have been documented saving police officers lives with their guns and have been documented saving others from tragedy. this is the correct for of gun regulation. DC's is not, for obvious reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 Sad....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trio Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 This was related to the earlier shootings.I am starting to get sick of those in the "pro" gun crowd and continue to say we don't have a problem. There has to be a better way to let those continue to own guns keep them, but find a way to get them of the hands of those that will cause harm. sigh....i guess i am a member of the "pro" gun crowd you are sick of then.... it is awful and tragic when something like this happens.... I don't understand why it is more awful or tragic than when some drunk kills a family of 4 with his SUV..... the number of people killed by traffic fatalities in this country is enormous, when compared to gun fatalities.... chances are, you have a deadlier weapon in your garage right now than I have in my safe.... what you saw today at the second shooting is exactly what we in the "pro" gun group have been talking about....someone was there (in this case a private security guard) that was armed, and responded before the police ever arrived....had he not been there, how many more people may have been killed or died? And is it not likely that this maniac would still be on the loose? the poster above makes a very good point...how many churches have armed security guards? not many.....but responsible citizens, with their CCW, likely attend churches across the country everyday.... i am not a big believe in "coincidences", so I too believe they were related.... I also do not think it is any coincidence that the majority of mass shootings like this occur in "gun free zones".... the mall shooting earlier this week was at a gun free zone, and 8 people died before the shooter lost his life.... the second shooting at the Colorado church was obviously not a gun free zone, and while just as tragic, it is very clear that the action of an armed person other than the police on the scene prevented it from being a lot worse....... as with any tool that is dangerous, if it falls into the hands of the wrong person, it can be deadly...the same is true of a car, a gun, 300 pounds of fertilizer, an axe, what have you... the problem is that you have deranged and sick people intent on doing harm to others, and they will find the means to do what they are trying to do.... i said this in another thread, but a gun of mine traveled to safeway, harris teeter, in my car to drop off my son at school (as is allowed by VA law), christmas shopping, to 7-11, home, to the barbershop, and many other places this week and didn't kill a single person..... as much as you don't understand me, I guess I don't understand you.... I don't blame the car when a drunk driver kills someone, do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Brave Little Toaster Oven Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 Damn, a girl I know was friends with some of those kids that died. She's in training to be a missionary and has close ties with that group of people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trio Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 Damn, a girl I know was friends with some of those kids that died. She's in training to be a missionary and has close ties with that group of people thats terrible.... my wife has been hit hard in the last 2 years by some pretty public murders as well... there was a family in Richmond a couple of Christmas ago that was murdered in a home invasion...very bad...killed the kids, everyone...most people have probably heard about it actually....what is not known, is on their way to Richmond those *******s invaded the home of a woman in Culpeper and murdered her as well....unfortunately, her children are patients at my wife's pediatric practice.... and then this year, with the home invasions in Connecticut that were also very public... again, my wife has a patient who is a teenage girl who was very close friends with the girl who was murdered...so much so that her family had been in Connecticut and stayed with them within a month prior to the murders.... it's horrible when something like this hits close to home...especially around the holidays... my condolences to your friend.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan133 Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 sigh....i guess i am a member of the "pro" gun crowd you are sick of then....it is awful and tragic when something like this happens.... I don't understand why it is more awful or tragic than when some drunk kills a family of 4 with his SUV..... the number of people killed by traffic fatalities in this country is enormous, when compared to gun fatalities.... chances are, you have a deadlier weapon in your garage right now than I have in my safe.... what you saw today at the second shooting is exactly what we in the "pro" gun group have been talking about....someone was there (in this case a private security guard) that was armed, and responded before the police ever arrived....had he not been there, how many more people may have been killed or died? And is it not likely that this maniac would still be on the loose? the poster above makes a very good point...how many churches have armed security guards? not many.....but responsible citizens, with their CCW, likely attend churches across the country everyday.... i am not a big believe in "coincidences", so I too believe they were related.... I also do not think it is any coincidence that the majority of mass shootings like this occur in "gun free zones".... the mall shooting earlier this week was at a gun free zone, and 8 people died before the shooter lost his life.... the second shooting at the Colorado church was obviously not a gun free zone, and while just as tragic, it is very clear that the action of an armed person other than the police on the scene prevented it from being a lot worse....... as with any tool that is dangerous, if it falls into the hands of the wrong person, it can be deadly...the same is true of a car, a gun, 300 pounds of fertilizer, an axe, what have you... the problem is that you have deranged and sick people intent on doing harm to others, and they will find the means to do what they are trying to do.... i said this in another thread, but a gun of mine traveled to safeway, harris teeter, in my car to drop off my son at school (as is allowed by VA law), christmas shopping, to 7-11, home, to the barbershop, and many other places this week and didn't kill a single person..... as much as you don't understand me, I guess I don't understand you.... I don't blame the car when a drunk driver kills someone, do you? good post. I'm personally on the fence on the whole total gun freedom vs. total gun regulation fence. I see the good poitns by both sides, and since I'm a constitutionalist, I tend to side with gun rights. thats not to say I'm in favor of reasonable regulation that makes it harder for creeps and whackos to get their hands on guns. to inference the car comparisons, if someone is deemed unable to drive they don't recieve a license. in the same way i think we should make some sort of state-issued license to carry a weapon, not to own. you don't need a license to own a car, just to drive it. i think a similar concept could be applied here.btw i do fully intend to buy a handgun on my 21st birthday. This world is full of crazy people and I want a leg up on them if worst comes to worst. if there some sort of applicable law in virginia i also would like a concealed weapons license. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 Unfortunately, I haven't seen the names of any of the victims yet. While I don't personally attend New Life, my daughter attends services and outreach programs there periodically (she wasn't there this morning due to the five inches of snow we received yesterday and last night) and I know several other people who attend there regularly. So far none of the phone calls I've made or people I've talked to have any more details than what I've seen in the news and have to been able to produce any names for me. Apparently, the gunman planted explosive devices as well and the ATF guys are out there checking those out. Right now all I can do is pray for the victims and their families and that there not be any copycats out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsTerps26 Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 the number of people killed by traffic fatalities in this country is enormous, when compared to gun fatalities.... chances are, you have a deadlier weapon in your garage right now than I have in my safe.... as much as you don't understand me, I guess I don't understand you.... I don't blame the car when a drunk driver kills someone, do you? You make a great point, but at the same time, murdering someone b/c of an automobile accident isn't, and will never be, as deliberate/calculated as a murder commited with a gun. At the same time you have to always blame the individual, not the means of which someone commits this type of crime. I just think its unfair to bring up statistics on automobile deaths vs homicides with a gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 Unfortunately, I haven't seen the names of any of the victims yet. While I don't personally attend New Life, my daughter attends services and outreach programs there periodically (she wasn't there this morning due to the five inches of snow we received yesterday and last night) and I know several other people who attend there regularly. So far none of the phone calls I've made or people I've talked to have any more details than what I've seen in the news and have to been able to produce any names for me. Apparently, the gunman planted explosive devices as well and the ATF guys are out there checking those out. Right now all I can do is pray for the victims and their families and that there not be any copycats out there. Thank goodness for snow. Interesting that the ATF was there for explosives. The same was true for the Omaha shooting. I'm expecting IED attacks very soon. I'm actually surprised that this tactic hasn't been used here yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freakofthesouth Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 disclaimer: I am not endorsing this article; I just thought it was a different, provocative take on said situation. http://www.truthnews.us/?p=1181 “Lone Gunman” Kills Cult Members in Colorado Kurt Nimmo TruthNews December 9, 2007 “A gunman walked into a training center dormitory for young Christian missionaries early Sunday and opened fire, killing two of the center’s staff members and wounding two others,” reports the Guardian. “The shooting happened at about 12:30 a.m. at the Youth With a Mission center, police spokeswoman Susan Medina said. About 45 people were evacuated from the dormitory in this Denver suburb.” At this time, there are few details, as the gunman escaped without a trace. However, his target has a few rather odd associations. According to Nat Mayown Person and Robert Parsons, Youth With a Mission (YWAM) is a CIA front group involved in “espionage missionary work,” particularly in developing nations. According to Rick Ross, YWAM was founded …by a California Assemblies of God minister, Loren Cunningham, in 1961. The organization reportedly has claimed (1982) more than 1,500 long-term and 10,000 short-term missionaries. Youth with a Mission (YWAM), with numerous bases internationally, Discipleship Training Schools throughout the United States and outside America, is one of the largest evangelistic missionary organizations in the world. Certainly, millions of dollars flow through its accounts yearly. YWAM does have substantial influence within the Evangelical Christian community. Before it was bankrupted by the Church of Scientology, the Cult Awareness Network stated “that Ywam has many elements of a destructive cult,” specifically “the authoritarian control by the elders” over members. “YWAM is vehemently anti-Catholic and pro-‘Reconstructionist’ — that is, founder Loren Cunningham believes in replacing democracy with a fundamentalist Protestant theocracy,” writes Jospeh Cannon. Although the Person and Parsons do not bother to provide additional information on their accusation, it is interesting to note that filmmaker David Loren Cunningham, son of Loren Cunningham, YWAM founder, was allowed to film at CIA headquarters in Langley for his feature ABC series, “The Path to 9/11,” basically a slick propaganda piece starring Harvey Keitel, Patricia Heaton, and Donnie Whalberg, and based on the official whitewash commission fairy tale. “Is Bush and the CIA behind the controversial ABC News documentary ‘The Path to 9/11,’ which blames Clinton for the 9/11 attack? It looks like it might be,” writes Marc Perkel Rantz. The movie’s director Davin L. Cunningham is an evangelical nutcase and the son of the guy who started the Christian cult Youth with a Mission. The movie producers had unusual access to CIA headquarters to make this film. There seems to be a lot of people on the web connecting the dots but it looks like this is a CIA propaganda film that was produced by the Bush administration to change the outcome of the upcoming congressional elections. Besides, who came up with the $40 million bucks to produce this lie? We may never know for sure but it’s probably us taxpayers through one of those black budgets that funds projects like this and CIA torture camps. As it turns out, Cunningham the Younger is connected to the neocon network, specifically David Horowitz, the former Marxist with connections to documented CIA asset Richard Mellon Scaife. “Early on, Cunningham had recruited a young Iranian-American screenwriter named Cyrus Nowrasteh to write the script” for his 9/11 fantasy project. “Not only is Nowrasteh an outspoken conservative, he is also a fervent member of the emerging network of right-wing people burrowing into the film industry with ulterior sectarian political and religious agendas, like Cunningham,” writes Max Blumenthal. Replace “conservative” and “right-wing” with “neocon” and you will have a more accurate idea of the mechanics. And, as Cannon notes, YWAM is connected to Agape Airlines. “Agape operates at the world-infamous Venice airport, where Mohammed Atta trained… A pilot named Mark Mikarts flies for Agape. The same pilot was Atta’s flight instructor.” Once again, we are presented with a series of supposed coincidences surrounding yet another apparent “lone gunman” mass murder scenario. Of course, at this time, the shooting outside of Denver appears to be a random act of violence, or possibly an act of revenge on the part of a former YWAM member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 After more phone calls last night, I still don't have any word on any identification of any of the victims of the New Life shooting. My daughter has been on the phone with friends including one that was quoted in the news and she came up empty as well. The police are staying pretty tight-lipped. I hate that anyone was injured or killed but it's even harder with people you know. It turns out the devices being investigated by the ATF were smoke-making devices, possibly smoke grenades. From one of the news stories, it was determined the security guard that shot the gunman was a female. That surprises me a bit since the number of male armed security guards here greatly outnumbers the female armed guards but thank God she was quick and true. She likely saved several more lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoEd Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 You make a great point, but at the same time, murdering someone b/c of an automobile accident isn't, and will never be, as deliberate/calculated as a murder commited with a gun. At the same time you have to always blame the individual, not the means of which someone commits this type of crime. I just think its unfair to bring up statistics on automobile deaths vs homicides with a gun. A reach? Maybe, but still relative to the discussion. Just like comparing the alcohol to pot IMO. Different, but the same none the less. Anyway, I have to agree with Trio, it's not the guns that do the killing. It's the gun in the idiots hand. A gun is nothing more than a tool, a deadly one, but no more than a rock or baseball bat. What we need to do in America is put a stop to the constant "knee jerk" response/reaction tactics and start getting to the root of the problems. Education, counseling, recognition/treatment. You can't tell me that most of the people responsible for committing these types of crimes didn't show warning signs. Mom and Dad had no idea, right? Whatever, Mom and Dad saw it coming a mile a way. Thing is, when someone like the mall shooter is singled out as a risk you get in trouble for "stereotyping" and not showing understanding and tolerance. Like most of the problems our country is currently faced with, there's no easy answer but banning guns definitely isn't it. If the idiot can't get a gun he'll find a different way to become famous. Like driving his SUV through a crowd of people waiting to get in the church. If a person intends to do harm they're going to do harm no matter what you do. :2cents: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted December 10, 2007 Author Share Posted December 10, 2007 A reach? Maybe, but still relative to the discussion. Just like comparing the alcohol to pot IMO. Different, but the same none the less. Anyway, I have to agree with Trio, it's not the guns that do the killing. It's the gun in the idiots hand. A gun is nothing more than a tool, a deadly one, but no more than a rock or baseball bat. What is the purpose of baseball bat versus a gun? Is a baseball bat made explicitly to bash someone's head in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RVAbrendan Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 thats terrible....my wife has been hit hard in the last 2 years by some pretty public murders as well... there was a family in Richmond a couple of Christmas ago that was murdered in a home invasion...very bad...killed the kids, everyone...most people have probably heard about it actually....what is not known, is on their way to Richmond those *******s invaded the home of a woman in Culpeper and murdered her as well....unfortunately, her children are patients at my wife's pediatric practice.... and then this year, with the home invasions in Connecticut that were also very public... again, my wife has a patient who is a teenage girl who was very close friends with the girl who was murdered...so much so that her family had been in Connecticut and stayed with them within a month prior to the murders.... it's horrible when something like this hits close to home...especially around the holidays... my condolences to your friend.... Was that the Richmond family that owned the toy store 'World of Mirth'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overhead Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 What is the purpose of baseball bat versus a gun? Is a baseball bat made explicitly to bash someone's head in? A gun is not created to kill innocent people either. It is a misuse of the tool. Many of my guns are created for hunting or target shooting. If I take my hammer that is created to drive nails into wood and use it to drive nails into someones head I would classify that the same as I would using my target pistol to kill an innocent person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted December 10, 2007 Author Share Posted December 10, 2007 A gun is not created to kill innocent people either. It is a misuse of the tool. Many of my guns are created for hunting or target shooting. If I take my hammer that is created to drive nails into wood and use it to drive nails into someones head I would classify that the same as I would using my target pistol to kill an innocent person.Don't get me wrong, I own several guns myself, a couple of shotguns and an antique 30-30.What do you think a Kalishnikov AK-47 is made for? Or an AR-15? To kill people right? Isn't that their purpose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntotoro Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 when will the violence end? we traded riots and protests for wackos with guns. Violence has always been, always will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trio Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 Don't get me wrong, I own several guns myself, a couple of shotguns and an antique 30-30.What do you think a Kalishnikov AK-47 is made for? Or an AR-15? To kill people right? Isn't that their purpose? how do they differ from your shotgun or .30-30 exactly? they fire a different caliber of ammunition, certainly. the terminal ballistics of a .30-30 round, however, is greater than that of .223 round (the round out of an AR-15)....a .30-30 round is easily as fatal to a human as a .223.... a shotgun, especially in close quarters, is probably the greatest handheld killing machine there is....it was the weapon used by the killer in Utah mall shooting last year....at close quarters, your shotgun with 000 buckshot puts out 6-8 projectiles roughly the size of a .357 magnum round with every pull of the trigger..... my point is, and firearm can be lethal to anything in the hands of the wrong person... The PURPOSE of any tool is determined by its user, isn't it? None of the AR-15s or AK variants I have ever owned have ever killed anything but some very, very vicious target paper. The AR variant is so popular because: 1) the trajectory of the round is very flat (making it accurate) and 2) because the nature of the rifle makes it very adaptable. I can go target shoot one day with it, pop a new upper on it, and go hunt with it the next. There are NUMEROUS people in this country that hunt with AR variants chambered in 6.8 Grendel, 6.5, .50 Beowulf, or .308. It is the most popular style rifle for competition shooter that shoot in what is known as modern "3-gun" competition. Not to mention, it makes for a fun day at the range. No offense, but the idea that the "purpose" of any firearm is only to kill bespeaks of a certain ignorance on the subject. Your "antique .30-30" was the AR-15 of the 1870s. And I have seen trained Cowboy shooters empty the entire 15 round tube of a lever actioned Winchester .30-30 at multiple targets in under 10 seconds. Something I would have trouble doing with my AR, despite my years of training in the US Army. A perfect example is this gentleman here, Jerry Miculek....everytime I hear people talk about "high capacity handguns" and such I am reminded of how Jerry, with a revolver, fired 12 rounds (thats 6 rounds, reload, 6 rounds) in 2.99 seconds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uisHfKj2JiI The gun, or firearm, is not truly the weapon. It is the tool. It is only when it is paired with the HUMAN BEING that it becomes the weapon. My guns can sit in my safe until the end of time (including my AR-15s) and they will not kill anyone. If they fall into the hands of someone that is mentally unstable or ill, well, that is a whole different story now isn't it? And finally, to answer the drunk driving versus mass homicide comparison, I do not think it is that far off. In each example you have a person who is suffering from a debilitating mental illness, that is so effected by their illness that they do something that they would not do if they were otherwise healthy, and it results in the death of other people. Because lets face it. Healthy, normal, well adjusted people do not walk into malls, churches, college classrooms, what-have you and kill people. There is a bumper sticker in the vein of: "If guns killed people, then spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat, and pencils made me stupid." a bit inappropriate, but you get the point....until we stop blaming the inanimate object, and look for the root cause in the animate actors, all you will do is change the nature of the pain, not that it actually occurs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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