Packers fan comments on ST during ESPN "Winners" chat...

[Baculus]

Sean Taylor is playing a different position this year, one which will give him more opportunities to make interceptions, less opportunity to hit people, more opportunity to make mistakes in coverage, less opportunities to take bad angles, and more opportunities to miss open field tackles (with high tackling).

Taylor still has to take a lot of running angles in his current position. In fact, as a free safety, since he isn't playing as close to the line, he may, at times, have to take MORE angles then last year.

Furthermore, Taylor is a solid tackler. Yes, at times, he had issues with wanting to go for the big hits and occasionally hitting high, but he is a good tackler. Much better then, say, "Horse Collar" Roy Williams. In fact, just in Taylor's first year, he had enough good, solid hits to have his own fantastic highlights reel. And just from his first year.

You are taking every bad play Sean has performed and throwing out his good plays which are 3x more than his bad plays. It really isn't a good way to provide a fair accounting of a player's performance.

This debate started in another thread when I said, contrary to popular opinion, that Sean is overrated by many Redskins fans. He hasn't yet lived up to the potential we saw when he was drafted with the #5 pick. He isn't close to being the feared, impact player of the Ed Reed or Troy Polamalu standards.

Are you kidding? Do you even read other team fan forums? Sean Taylor is ALWAYS mentioned when discussing the Redskins. Where do you have the notion that he isn't a feared player? Just because you feel he isn't a feared doesn't mean that's the reality of the situation.

Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu are excellent players: No doubt. But you can't always compare player's situations. Both of these players have benefited from situations that perhaps has not been available for Taylor. But, also, these players make mistakes, just like any other player. And while Sean is perhaps not quite at their level, he IS getting there, keeping in mind that he was drafted more recently then either of these players.

I am not going to degrade Taylor because he hasn't yet reached the level of two of the best safeties in football. That is absurdly dismissive.

He might yet develop into that player in the free safety position, but it hasn't happened yet. He has grade A talent, as we'd expect from a #5 pick, but I think I'm being generous to give his career performance a grade B rating. Good but not great.

Being generous?

I am sorry, but with the complete lack of observational details on your part, I give your performance review a solid F. Next time, actually watch some tape, observe what other team fans, players and coaches are saying, and try to keep up with current player performance. And this isn't anything personal toward you, but I believe you are being a bit condenscending towards a very good football player and fan favorite.

[Oldfan]

Considering he has better stats than all those listed. Uh, I would say he ranks with them RIGHT NOW. And if he continues what he's doing this season for the rest of his career, HE WILL be better than those listed. Is it that hard to understand.

Better stats? Yes, of course, you want to cherry pick the sample size of five games this year. You aren't interested in career stats.

They mush not like you at the retirement home either. I bet everyone there loves the chocolate chip cookie's, but to you there's one too many chocolate chips, and until they take that one chip away, it won't be as good as the other cookies out there.

I rather enjoy being insulted by someone who can do it creatively. Your attempt is sad and boring. You obviously have no talent for it. I suggest you read Om's comments to me. He's good at it.

[DCsportsfan53]

Well, you do have to put some air on some of the longer passes. Too flat of a throw, and the ball ends up behind the receiver. Also, I don't know about Sean being "beat WELL on several plays"; you have to keep in mind that the cornerback may have primary assignment on some of the coverage. Have you actually looked at the tape to positively identify when Sean was beat and when it was his coverage responsiblity? Also, there were ONLY a few plays where maybe the Packer's WR maybe had a step on his coverage.

Let's not act as if the Greenbay WR's were running loose and wild in our secondary: Favre only had like 188 yards of something.

I'll try and get some screen shots for you later today but there were a few times in Cover 2 where he was beat. Specifically the second INT. If Favre puts 5 more yards under that ball, it's a TD, no question about it. Taylor bit on the short route by an underneath receiver and was only able to recover because Favre didn't put enough on it.

[Henry]

I didn't know what he meant. How does a player make a statement playing football? It sounded like one of those buzz words like "rythym." Ladell needs to carry the ball more so he can find his rhythym.

I give you credit for being smart enough to know what he meant.

[Henry]

On the other hand, I'll gladly accept this statement as relevant since the author implies that Sean doe not currently rank with those safeties he listed.

The author puts them in the same sentence, which you JUST said noone would do. I'm not claiming Taylor's as good as those guys. But he's starting to be mentioned in the same breath with them which, ironically, is why we're talking in this very thread right now.

Baculus put it better than I did. Claiming Taylor is an average player simply because he's not one of the top two or three at his position is absurdly dismissive.

[CRobi21]

Better stats? Yes, of course, you want to cherry pick the sample size of five games this year. You aren't interested in career stats.

Those other guys have been in the league longer than Sean. So how wouldn that work? Tell me please. Why wouldn't we just use this year. And we've already had our bye week, so he's played in one less game than all those guys, except Palamolu who had their bye week this week i think. Yet still has better stats. So go away.

[Oldfan]

Baculus, what you aren't saying about Sean Taylor speaks more eloquently to me than what you said:

Furthermore, Taylor is a solid tackler. Yes, at times, he had issues with wanting to go for the big hits and occasionally hitting high, but he is a good tackler. Much better then, say, "Horse Collar" Roy Williams. In fact, just in Taylor's first year, he had enough good, solid hits to have his own fantastic highlights reel. And just from his first year.

You said he's a hard hitter. You didn't say he was a sure tackler with solid technique.

Are you kidding? Do you even read other team fan forums? Sean Taylor is ALWAYS mentioned when discussing the Redskins. Where do you have the notion that he isn't a feared player? Just because you feel he isn't a feared doesn't mean that's the reality of the situation.

What you didn't claim is that he is widely recognized by NFL insiders as a premier safety in the league.

Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu are excellent players: No doubt. But you can't always compare player's situations. Both of these players have benefited from situations that perhaps has not been available for Taylor. But, also, these players make mistakes, just like any other player. And while Sean is perhaps not quite at their level, he IS getting there, keeping in mind that he was drafted more recently then either of these players.

You didn't claim he was already close to being in the same class as Reed and Polamalu. You talked about his potential which I have not questioned.

You didn't actually disagree with anything I said.

[LD0506]

Oh my God! How can this still be going on? It passed over into self-abuse pages ago. I want to know if there is one single person that honestly believes they can or will ever change OF's mind?

[Oldfan]

Those other guys have been in the league longer than Sean. So how wouldn that work? Tell me please. Why wouldn't we just use this year. And we've already had our bye week, so he's played in one less game than all those guys, except Palamolu who had their bye week this week i think. Yet still has better stats. So go away.

A five or six game sample size is too small, therefore worthless especially on DB stats with relatively few plays involved.

If I were trying to slip one past you, I could tell you that Ed Reed's career interception rate was .380 per game while Sean's is only .180. The problem with that is that Reed has been playing the free safety position in a defense set up to give him a high interception rate. This is Sean's first year in such a scheme so we need more time to evaluate him.

[SKINS FAN #56]

No homo but I love this guy. I hope him along with LaRon Landry are Skins' for life. Imagine if he had caught those dropped INTs though. 4 picks!

[SonnyJ]

The statement you referenced does not address Sean's current reputation in the NFL.

He is a RARE cat. Has ZERO physical weaknesses. Is making a statement and if he stays dedicated, he will be better than Reed, Wilson and Troy P.

On the other hand, I'll gladly accept this statement as relevant since the author implies that Sean doe not currently rank with those safeties he listed.

Reading comprehension not that good, huh? He absolutely implies that he ranks with those guys. He clearly states that, should he stay dedicated, he will be BETTER than them, which would indicate that he already is in their league. Is this that hard?

Seriously, I'm not sure why Polamalu is even in this discussion. The Steelers have used him more like a LB than a S. He certainly isn't playing centerfield back there. I think ST could play that role far more capably than Polamalu would play deep. :2cents:

I'm still scratching my head over this one:

What you didn't claim is that he is widely recognized by NFL insiders as a premier safety in the league.

How on Earth do you know he isn't? How on Earth do you know who is on that list?

[Peregrine]

If he had focused a little better(or GW for the first time in his life put them through interception drills), he would have had 6 picks yesterday. Though 2 of them isnt bad, he dropped many more.

[CRobi21]

Oh my God! How can this still be going on? It passed over into self-abuse pages ago. I want to know if there is one single person that honestly believes they can or will ever change OF's mind?

It's Alive! It's Alive!

[Oldfan]

You guys aren't making a lot of sense, but you're tag-teaming me and wearing me down.

Reading comprehension not that good, huh? He absolutely implies that he ranks with those guys. He clearly states that, should he stay dedicated, he will be BETTER than them, which would indicate that he already is in their league. Is this that hard?

That's not a reasonable interpretation of what the man meant.

Seriously, I:2cents:'m not sure why Polamalu is even in this discussion. The Steelers have used him more like a LB than a S. He certainly isn't playing centerfield back there. I think ST could play that role far more capably than Polamalu would play deep.

Troy P. plays all over the place. He disrupts an offense more than any safety in the league.

How on Earth do you know he isn't?

I've listened to media people who have talked to the insiders. The same few names are always mentioned. I've linked an ESPN's survey of 11 coaches, GMs, and players and Sean Taylor's name wasn't on the list. I've watched every play of every game in his career. I haven't seen any reason to think he ought to be regarded as anything more than a player with amazing athletic ability who has yet to reach his potential.

[TheREALJBird]

The guy is all over the place on sunday and gets 2 interceptions....and people still wanna find a reason to *****. I would say I'm surprised but people on here whine about anything positive that comes out of a game because I guess it's not up to their standards:rolleyes:

[skinsngibbs4life]

Well, you do have to put some air on some of the longer passes. Too flat of a throw, and the ball ends up behind the receiver. Also, I don't know about Sean being "beat WELL on several plays"; you have to keep in mind that the cornerback may have primary assignment on some of the coverage. Have you actually looked at the tape to positively identify when Sean was beat and when it was his coverage responsiblity? Also, there were ONLY a few plays where maybe the Packer's WR maybe had a step on his coverage.

Let's not act as if the Greenbay WR's were running loose and wild in our secondary: Favre only had like 188 yards of something.

Its one thing to put air uder it on a deep pass, its another to have the pass almost look like it slipped out of his hand. He was putting anabsurd amount of air under those deep balls thrown to the left side of the field.

[Washington53fan]

People aren't talking about the catch he made for his pick on the sideline sunday...He bobbled the ball off balance, made sure to drag his feet, and then pulled the ball in before he hit the ground...

P.S What about his EXPLOSIVE blocks during Special Teams this year?!?

He is truly a great safety

[Om]

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=nfl_nfc

But if you want to point to two players who have simply played outstanding football this season for Washington, look to Taylor and DE Andre Carter. These two have been game changers. Taylor is a physical freak who has been given much more freedom with his responsibilities this season, which is exactly what he needs. He has outstanding size, speed, and explosiveness. Plus, he plays the ball in the air very well and has become an intimidator on the backend and is emerging as one of the elite safeties in the league today.

[mi6]

Its about ****ing time, my boy, Sean Taylor got some respect!

He may have been a loose canon in the past - but, he has transformed himself and increased the bench mark of his game!

[SonnyJ]

You guys aren't making a lot of sense, but you're tag-teaming me and wearing me down.

Talk about ad hominem attacks...

That's not a reasonable interpretation of what the man meant.

And why is that? Because you said so?

Troy P. plays all over the place. He disrupts an offense more than any safety in the league.

Sorry, skippy. I think Polamalu is a big-time player, but he can't cover like Taylor. Yes, he plays all over the place - relatively close to the LOS. He doesn't play deep and doesn't get lined up against WRs as Taylor has been asked to do over the years.

I've listened to media people who have talked to the insiders. The same few names are always mentioned. I've linked an ESPN's survey of 11 coaches, GMs, and players and Sean Taylor's name wasn't on the list. I've watched every play of every game in his career. I haven't seen any reason to think he ought to be regarded as anything more than a player with amazing athletic ability who has yet to reach his potential.

Ha! Now I know you're just jerking our chains. So this is what is "widely" considered by "NFL insiders"? Some non-specific media people and some anonymous 11-person ESPN survey and whatever your "trained eye" has indicated to you? To quote John McEnroe, you can't be serious :laugh:!!!

Come on, guys, we have to bow to his superior knowledge and "widely" held NFL insider info. :notworthy

[SeanTaylorisPiamp]

I've listened to media people who have talked to the insiders. The same few names are always mentioned. I've linked an ESPN's survey of 11 coaches, GMs, and players and Sean Taylor's name wasn't on the list. I've watched every play of every game in his career. I haven't seen any reason to think he ought to be regarded as anything more than a player with amazing athletic ability who has yet to reach his potential.

You say you've watched every play of every game in ST's career? How many Ravens, Colts, Steelers etc. games have watched? I guarantee not that many. It seems to me like you watch Sean Taylor, and notice all the little things you don't like about him.Then you watch the highlights for the week which only shows the good plays made by other players. This is probably where you see Reed, Sanders, and Polamalu making good plays and you don't get to see or hear about the plays they messed up on. So you don't realize that those plays ever happened. Of course your going to respond to this saying that you've seen an ESPN poll that says ST doesn't match up with the other guys. However, do you have anything else besides ONE ESPN poll to back you up? Do you watch these other safeties and see the mistakes that they make every game?

[0mega]

ST should've had 5 picks on Sunday. 5 clean, hit in BOTH hands, ints.

It should be noted that if Farve had put a little more mustard on some of those passes they would've gone for 6.

But yeah, ST has had a superb year so far. Landrys presence has really allowed him to do what he was born to do.

[SeanTaylorisPiamp]

did anyone else think that sean didnt even have a good game on sunday?

I feel like the only reason he got the picks is because Brett was airing his passes out too much for some reason. He was beat WELL on several plays, and the only reason we didnt give up 6 was because brett put too much loft on the passes

Why does someone else have to have a bad game for Taylor to be good? Some people on here just don't want to believe he is good. I'm not saying he is the best, but give credit where credit is due.

[0mega]

You say you've watched every play of every game in ST's career? How many Ravens, Colts, Steelers etc. games have watched? I guarantee not that many. It seems to me like you watch Sean Taylor, and notice all the little things you don't like about him.Then you watch the highlights for the week which only shows the good plays made by other players. This is probably where you see Reed, Sanders, and Polamalu making good plays and you don't get to see or hear about the plays they messed up on. So you don't realize that those plays ever happened. Of course your going to respond to this saying that you've seen an ESPN poll that says ST doesn't match up with the other guys. However, do you have anything else besides ONE ESPN poll to back you up? Do you watch these other safeties and see the mistakes that they make every game?

I'd still take Reed, but ST is 2nd in line. Troy, Sanders, Dawk, are all great safetys, but I believe that ST is a more gifted physical specimen.

Reed really only has one weakness, and that's his tendency to gamble, and occasionally give up the big play. But the dude also has incredible football smarts and instincts, and is more often right than not. He doesn't get nearly enough credit as a hitter either.

[Oldfan]

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=nfl_nfc

The article is exaggerated hype and not relevant to my position because I haven't said that Sean Taylor won't play well as a free safety.

I enjoy debate as you know. But, please try to counter what I said, not what you wish I had said. I'll make it easy and sum up for you:

I gave Sean a grade B for his performance against Green Bay. Given the awful way Brett Favre was playing, any free safety in the league would have had an outstanding day. A great free safety could have had four or five picks.

Sean's athletic ability is obvious and amazing. It's not hard to understand why people think that he has incredible potential. It's not hard to understand why fans are awed by the way he hits. It's also not hard to understand why he is overrated by many Redskin fans.

Sean Taylor will improve his play in the free safety position without question. He will get more interceptions, because that's what free safeties do. How well he does on the stat sheet will depend a lot on how much pressure we can put on QBs.

Sean isn't a smart player and he's not a sure tackler. These weaknesses will limit his potential. The free safety is not an instinctive position. A really bright guy who can't be jerked around by offenses can be as effective as an all-world class athlete.

As a general rule, it doesn't take long to spot great players. We knew Champ Bailey would be great in the preseason of his first year. Now, Sean's in his fourth season and we are still talking about his potential to emerge as a great player. He's a good player now. He'll get better. But it's not likely he'll ever be a perennial All-Pro, Hall of Fame, great player.