Packers fan comments on ST during ESPN "Winners" chat...

[Om]

OF, you mistake my posting yet another piece of evidence totally undercutting what you continue to try to say for being someone who's still "debating" this topic with you. I'm not, for all the reasons I've expressed previously.

Seriously. Unlike you, I know when to stop, old friend.

Maybe I'll give it a shot again one day if there's a fresh topic to get into and I get the impression you might proceed w/o all the silly obfuscating, shadowboxing and moving-target tactics you rely upon so heavily--not just in this thread, but overall. I have my doubts that will happen, but you never know.

Like I said before though ... at some point I'll have occasion to write my own assessment of Sean Taylor, as you asked me to. Quite certain I'll see you there.

[Dan T.]

Sean isn't a smart player and he's not a sure tackler. These weaknesses will limit his potential. The free safety is not an instinctive position. A really bright guy who can't be jerked around by offenses can be as effective as an all-world class athlete.

Taylor makes as many fundamentally sound tackles as any safety in the league. His huge hits sometimes obscure the fact that more often than not he gets his head in front of the ball carrier and wraps up with his arms. Watch sometime and you'll see.

And the arguments that he is not football smart are fallacy, and a cheap counterargument when he can't be faulted for his physical play.

"She's blond and beautiful? She must me dumb."

"He's athletic, takes chances, and hits hard? He must not be football smart."'

I don't buy it.

[Henry]

The article is exaggerated hype and not relevant to my position because I haven't said that Sean Taylor won't play well as a free safety.

I enjoy debate as you know. But, please try to counter what I said, not what you wish I had said. I'll make it easy and sum up for you:

The article Om posted says he's emerging as an ELITE player. Williamson (again, the guy who's opinion was the point of this thread) says the same thing. That directly disputes your opinion below that But it's not likely he'll ever be a perennial All-Pro, Hall of Fame, great player.

Or do you have a personal interpretation of the word 'elite' that you are now going to use to justify continuing this argument?

I gave Sean a grade B for his performance against Green Bay. Given the awful way Brett Favre was playing, any free safety in the league would have had an outstanding day. A great free safety could have had four or five picks.

I'd love for someone to find me a game where any safety made four or five picks in one game. Plenty of QBs have awful days. Romo sits to pee threw five picks a few weeks ago in what was considered a performance of historically awful proportions. Anyone have four or five picks? Two?

You are holding Taylor up to standards even elite players would not maintain and then calling him a C or B player because of it.

Sean Taylor will improve his play in the free safety position without question. He will get more interceptions, because that's what free safeties do. How well he does on the stat sheet will depend a lot on how much pressure we can put on QBs.

Name me a DB who's stat sheet DOESN'T depend on the pressure his team can put on QBs.

As a general rule, it doesn't take long to spot great players. We knew Champ Bailey would be great in the preseason of his first year. Now, Sean's in his fourth season and we are still talking about his potential to emerge as a great player. He's a good player now. He'll get better. But it's not likely he'll ever be a perennial All-Pro, Hall of Fame, great player.

Apparently your arguement is that if you aren't great in years 1-3 of your career, you never will be. Someone should have explained that to Brian Dawkins, who made his first pro-bowl in year 4 of his career, and then went to 5 more over the next 7 years. Or John Lynch, who didn't make the pro-bowl until his seventh season and then went to six of the next seven.

Maybe now's a good time to tell me Dawkins and Lynch aren't perennial pro-bowlers or something.

[ffxdrummer]

You all understand that arguing with a person like Oldfan is pointless right? He's not considering your opinions and weighing them against his own to see who's actually making a better point, he's just reading your post and finding ways to legitimize (in his head) his opinions against yours as he goes. You're chasing your tail on this one.

[Om]

Some of us understand that, ffx, yes.

As Henry once said in another context, however, sometimes he just likes kicking people in the head.

[ffxdrummer]

Some of us understand that, ffx, yes.

As Henry once said in another context, however, sometimes he just likes kicking people in the head.

Fair enough! I can't say I've never been guilty...

[SonnyJ]

Some of us understand that, ffx, yes.

As Henry once said in another context, however, sometimes he just likes kicking people in the head.

It's funny you say that, because the thought occurred to me over the course of this thread that OldFan is like that deranged old bum on the street corner shouting "The End is near!". Instead of ignoring him, though, everyone is walking over to him and giving him a good, swift kick. Still, he just keeps shouting away. And people keep coming back to kick him again and again.

It's not one of my prouder moments, but, damn, it's entertaining .

[BuryYourDuke]

I love Sean Taylor, and I know that this won't be popular. But don't you think his success this season has to do with the fact that Williams has him playing deep center field? GW has essentially placed him in a spot where he can't get burnt with a dumb play. I don't question his physical gifts at all, but I still think he has a lot of mental maturing to do.

[Oldfan]

This has been fun, guys.

I certainly realize when I post realistic appraisals of overrated, popular players I'm going to take abuse on this board. I expect cracks about my age, my sanity, and the charge of stubbornness. That's why I'm very careful to be absolutely fair. When I realized that I hadn't given Sean credit for passes defended on his drops last Sunday, I raised his grade to a B.

In the end, though, we are talking about opinions based on observations. For obvious reasons, I value the opinions of those eleven NFL GMs, coaches and players more than the media types who were dazzled by Sean's athleticism last Sunday. If you don't, there's nothing more to say.

I think ES is one of the funniest sites on the internet. I often laugh out loud at the way posters jump to conclusions on very little evidence. That's what you are doing this year with Sean Taylor. He's played the free safety position for five games with mixed results. He had a good game against Favre at his worst -- and you want to imagine him someday with a bust in Canton.

Some players are late bloomers, maybe Sean is one of them, but I'll wait until there's more evidence on the table.

[Henry]

Oldfan, don't think that the 'cracks' you've recieved have anything to do with your opinions. There are plenty of people on this board who write less-than-stellar opinions of the Redskins, myself included, that don't take the greif you do.

When you open a contrarian post with 'do any of you actually watch football?' you are the one setting the tone for the responses you get. Closing your arguement with the same level of condescention only guarantees that this cycle will continue. As long as you blame the rest of the world for the level of civility of the threads you join, that level will always be the same.

We are not that far apart in our assessment of Taylor. I think he has been overrated in the past, but not so much this year. Obviously the jury is still out, but I'd rather be optimistic than scour the web for negative opinions of the guy. (Or positive opinions of others that exclude him.) That's pretty much it.

Keep raging against the machine, you old rebel.

[pjfootballer]

I'd love for someone to find me a game where any safety made four or five picks in one game. Plenty of QBs have awful days. Romo sits to pee threw five picks a few weeks ago in what was considered a performance of historically awful proportions. Anyone have four or five picks? Two?

The only one's I can think of are Dick Anderson against Pittsburgh and Eric Allen against New Orleans. I think they both had 4 picks in 1 game. Just off the top of my head.

[pjfootballer]

I love Sean Taylor, and I know that this won't be popular. But don't you think his success this season has to do with the fact that Williams has him playing deep center field? GW has essentially placed him in a spot where he can't get burnt with a dumb play. I don't question his physical gifts at all, but I still think he has a lot of mental maturing to do.

Well, yeah. He's not as good towards the LOS. Hence the drafting of a better strong safety in Landry to allow ST to play to his strengths which is ball hawking, big hitting and deep coverage. That's how you win football games, when you play to your player's strengths. He's better at Free Safety.

[DCsportsfan53]

Ok, so I said I'd find some screen shots and I did. This is of Taylor's first pick. I think it illustrates just how good he can be and where he needs to improve together in one play. It was amazing that he caught up as much as he did and made the play, not to mention a ridiculous catch but at the same time, you can clearly see him eyeing the run and the short receiver each just a moment too long considering he had the deep half in the Cover 2. A combination of skill and luck got us this INT. Skill by Taylor to catch up and make the play, lucky that the wet ball seemed to slip on Favre and he didn't get the ball far out there enough. You can clearly see, though, that if this ball doesn't duck on Favre, it's a TD.

Just trying to give an inbetween from the DPOY / best safety in league talk and Oldfan's ridiculous dismissals based on the fact he doesn't like ST for some reason. As always, it's never as good as it seems or as bad as it seems. This play in particular shows both sides of his ability. It shows how he can make plays no one else can and it shows how his aggressiveness can still be exploited and cause him to give up plays.

In this frame here he takes one extra step too many towards the play action and gets slightly out of position

In these next two frames, for some reason, he's not quite going full speed and is moving more laterally than anything. It appears he was getting ready to spy the short throw and blow up the receiver, which is where he appears to initially think Favre is going as he begins the windup. He quickly realizes where the ball is going and tries to get deep on Jones, but Jones has him beat.

You can see just how much ground he has to cover to catch up, here.

Here Jones begins to slow up, stutter step, and turn back for the underthrown ball.

Here's a frame from another angle that shows, even though this is as Jones is starting to slow and turn, just how far behind Taylor he was.

Again, I want to reiterate that I think Taylor is a great player, he's my favorite player, he's having a great season and I want him to be a Redskins for life. This is just in the interest of full disclosure and again, showing that, as always, it's never as good or as bad as it seems. I have a ton of confidence in this defense, but I'm tempering my optimism just a TINY bit as of right now because plays like this have me realizing that Taylor can still be caught out of position for big plays. This isn't something they'll talk about on ESPN because they don't do in depth anaylsis but I can GUARANTEE you this is something GW pointed out to Sean in the film room this week. As I said in previous posts, this may have a lot to do with pinching up because of the rain, trusting that Favre couldn't get that deep but there were two crucial missteps by Taylor in his coverage on this play that I believe WILL be exploited when we're playing teams like NE or any of the NFCE teams. Taylor can't afford a single misstep against NE or they will make us pay with big play TDs, like Favre should have in this case. :2cents:

[Enter Apotheosis]

In depth analysis always gets ignored around here...

[tomgraham]

Any word on contract talks?

[Om]

Um ... not to discount or fail to appreciate 53's effort, but personally, I'm not sure I saw it as "in depth" enough to break any new ground or warrant further comment. 53 showed stills of one play ... a play where ST bit on a play fake--something that happens to players of all skill levels game in and game out--then turned and covered around 25 yards in the time it took the pass to travel 45, and made the pick.

Not sure what impact it is supposed to have on the overall thrust of the thread, really. Is the point that he bit on a play fake on this play? Is the point that he made up for it by covering more ground faster than perhaps any players in the game today?

[Dan T.]

Thanks for that post DCsf53. So Taylor first reads and reacts to the run fake to the right (his left), then respects Donald Driver's slant in front of him. Then he's got to get on his horse to the deep sideline to catch up to the fly pattern. If Favre throws the ball 55 yards instead of 45 yards (he's on his 35 yard line at release, the ball comes down at the Skins 20) Taylor mignt not catch up with it. That's a tough throw to make though, with Favre being pushed left by Griffin's pressure.

[Enter Apotheosis]

Not sure what impact it is supposed to have on the overall thrust of the thread, really. Is the point that he bit on a play fake on this play? Is the point that he made up for it by covering more ground faster than perhaps any players in the game today?

It is a trend of behavior with ST to bite on the playaction or double move and rely on his athleticism to get out of trouble. Unfortunately, he just can't do that on every play and it really hurt us last season.

Is it ground-breaking anlysis? Of course not... but its an excellent reminder to the general population that ST has a lot of work to do from a play-recognition standpoint even despite the freakish nature of his abilities. Granted, I've gotten lambasted for critiquing ST's play in the past so I'm mostly just glad that someone took the time to show what it is that I've talked about.

In conclusion... DCsportsfan53: Stalin was a great man

[Isifhan]

In depth analysis always gets ignored around here...

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216989

Completely

[BuryYourDuke]

Ok, so I said I'd find some screen shots and I did...

Wow, nice little breakdown there, thanks for that. After looking at it frame by frame, it scares the bejesus out of me how close that was to being a TD, haha.

[DCsportsfan53]

Um ... not to discount or fail to appreciate 53's effort, but personally, I'm not sure I saw it as "in depth" enough to break any new ground or warrant further comment. 53 showed stills of one play ... a play where ST bit on a play fake--something that happens to players of all skill levels game in and game out--then turned and covered around 25 yards in the time it took the pass to travel 45, and made the pick.

Not sure what impact it is supposed to have on the overall thrust of the thread, really. Is the point that he bit on a play fake on this play? Is the point that he made up for it by covering more ground faster than perhaps any players in the game today?

The only point was, while not NEARLY trying to be what OF is, to temper the praise a little bit and show that, while it was a great play he made, this plays destiny was entirely in Favre's hands. Had the ball not slipped on him, that's a TD and everyone's talking about Taylor's coverage problems instead of his range (which would ridiculous, but it's an all or nothing sports' atmosphere these days). Again, never as good or bad as it seems, just trying to show both sides before anyone gets carried away one way or the other. Also trying to show how, while this worked out in our favor in this case, I'm not QUITE as sold yet on the D as others. Like I said, Brady doesn't miss that throw.

Also, as far as "everyone bites on PA", well, Taylor has a history of it to some extent and, being that it was Cover 2 and he had a deep half to himself, he can't be doing that. He's got to stop deep, even on PA's, when he's got a deep half all by his lonesome.

[DCsportsfan53]

Thanks for that post DCsf53. So Taylor first reads and reacts to the run fake to the right (his left), then respects Donald Driver's slant in front of him. Then he's got to get on his horse to the deep sideline to catch up to the fly pattern. If Favre throws the ball 55 yards instead of 45 yards (he's on his 35 yard line at release, the ball comes down at the Skins 20) Taylor mignt not catch up with it. That's a tough throw to make though, with Favre being pushed left by Griffin's pressure.

It definitely was a tough throw. You can't see it so much in the screen shots (I'm trying to extract video footage from both angles as we speak) but while Favre was forced left, he was able to take 2 good steps up and put his weight into that throw. It just slipped on him and came out a wobbly duck. Again, not trying to say too much except that, if he continues to watch the PA and slant on play fakes, QBs like Brady, Romo sits to pee, McNabb and Eli will make us pay.

[Om]

It is a trend of behavior with ST to bite on the playaction or double move and rely on his athleticism to get out of trouble. Unfortunately, he just can't do that on every play and it really hurt us last season.

Ah, a trend. Dare I ask you to quantify that blanket statement?

As in, out of the last 25 equally adept play-action fakes, how many has he "bitten on" to the extent he had to use his athleticism to get out of trouble?

And, is that trend constant over his career, or has it fluctuated as the unit and circumstances around him have changed?

And, of course, what are we comparing those numbers to? Ed Reed's? Polamalu's? If so, how do Sean's quantified numbers compare to theirs?

You get the drift.

Is it ground-breaking anlysis? Of course not... but its an excellent reminder to the general population that ST has a lot of work to do from a play-recognition standpoint even despite the freakish nature of his abilities. Granted, I've gotten lambasted for critiquing ST's play in the past so I'm mostly just glad that someone took the time to show what it is that I've talked about.

Not sure I've ever seen anyone say Sean Taylor has never bitten on a play fake. Or, for that matter, that he is above criticism. I believe issue was taken with OF and the "seven or eight others" he says agree with his take that Sean is not an impact player or one other teams have to account for.

I don't believe you're in that crowd, however, so we're probably not going to find much to argue about.

Other than the blanket statement thing above.

In conclusion... DCsportsfan53: Stalin was a great man

With that I cannot disagree. He is that man.

[Enter Apotheosis]

Ah, a trend. Dare I ask you to quantify that blanket statement?

As in, out of the last 25 equally adept play-action fakes, how many has he "bitten on" to the extent he had to use his athleticism to get out of trouble?

And, is that trend constant over his career, or has it fluctuated as the unit and circumstances around him have changed?

And, of course, what are we comparing those numbers to? Ed Reed's? Polamalu's? If so, how do Sean's quantified numbers compare to theirs?

You get the drift.

Don't make me bust out the game tape... I won't have time to take care of processes necessary to remain among the living if I do that

[Om]

Don't make me bust out the game tape... I won't have time to take care of processes necessary to remain among the living if I do that

What are you saying ... you answer to a higher power?

Exit apotheosis.