Packers fan comments on ST during ESPN "Winners" chat...

[Oldfan]

Actually, it's real easy to disagree in this case.

Om (or I) can just say "I disagree with you" and then whatever you say after that say "are you trying to prove a subjective arguement? Horse puckey."

Fine. Let Om say "I disagree with you." Here's the question again:

I have said that Sean Taylor sometimes takes bad angles, often uses poor tackling techniques, misses some tackles in the open field, and often needs to use his extraordinary talent just to catch up and make the ordinary plays in pass defense. You have implied that I'm all wet, but you haven't specifically challenged anything I've said. So, which of the foregoing observations are not valid in your opinion?

So, how about you, Henry? Do you disagree with my observations?

[ffxdrummer]

Fine. Let Om say "I disagree with you." Here's the question again:

I have said that Sean Taylor sometimes takes bad angles, often uses poor tackling techniques, misses some tackles in the open field, and often needs to use his extraordinary talent just to catch up and make the ordinary plays in pass defense. You have implied that I'm all wet, but you haven't specifically challenged anything I've said. So, which of the foregoing observations are not valid in your opinion?

So, how about you, Henry? Do you disagree with my observations?

I would argue that while everything you said is true. It is ALSO true that Sean Taylor sometimes takes perfect angles, often uses excellent tackling techniques, makes many tackles in the open field, and often needs to use his extraordinary talent to catch up and make the extraordinary plays in pass defense because someone else blew their coverage.

[zCommander]

Fine. Let Om say "I disagree with you." Here's the question again:

I have said that Sean Taylor sometimes takes bad angles, often uses poor tackling techniques, misses some tackles in the open field, and often needs to use his extraordinary talent just to catch up and make the ordinary plays in pass defense. You have implied that I'm all wet, but you haven't specifically challenged anything I've said. So, which of the foregoing observations are not valid in your opinion?

So, how about you, Henry? Do you disagree with my observations?

I disagree - ST is a great player - if you can do a better job then please put on a Skins uniform and go out and be like him. Next.

[Oldfan]

I have to ask this to you and Old Fan - what pretend standard do you hold NFL teams too. Do you guys watch other games? Do you see how a team like the Ravens still is caught out of position?

What's a "pretend standard?" Every DB is out of position now and then. The best do it infrequently.

Do you REALIZE that we get so many dropped passes by WRs because they are scared ****less that if Los and Springs don't drop their butts, here comes Laron Landry, or GOD FORBID Sean Taylor who hits like nobody I have EVER seen.

I think you wish this was true. I doubt that it is. Plaxico dropped three in the first half, then killed us in the second half of the Giants game. Chambers dropped three in the Miami game. That's his history. He gets open a lot, but has bad hands.

How many freak WRs have you seen rubbing their backs and looking sad after a drive ended because ST eviscerated their souls at the 50 yard line?

Sean hits hard. I have that down as a plus.

PS. One of the reasons Sean had a "down" year last year because QB's just didn't throw near him. There were others, but that is one rarely spoke of.

In another thread, I linked an ESPN survey of 11 NFL insiders who gave a long list of impact players who require special attention in game planning. Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu were the only safeties on the list.

[[[ghost]]]

In another thread, I linked an ESPN survey of 11 NFL insiders who gave a long list of impact players who require special attention in game planning. Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu were the only safeties on the list.

While I don't disagree with EVERYTHING you've said, using that worthless list as a source is quite foolish.

[Isifhan]

In another thread, I linked an ESPN survey of 11 NFL insiders who gave a long list of impact players who require special attention in game planning. Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu were the only safeties on the list.

:laugh: Stop the presses, Sean shouldn't even suit up since the 11 insiders don't deem him worthy.

How bout you get back to us when ESPN get's some documented coach's quotes as to what players require special attention in game planning.

[Henry]

Fine. Let Om say "I disagree with you." Here's the question again:

I have said that Sean Taylor sometimes takes bad angles, often uses poor tackling techniques, misses some tackles in the open field, and often needs to use his extraordinary talent just to catch up and make the ordinary plays in pass defense. You have implied that I'm all wet, but you haven't specifically challenged anything I've said. So, which of the foregoing observations are not valid in your opinion?

So, how about you, Henry? Do you disagree with my observations?

I believe my answer to that question was "So what?"

Name a safety that doesn't sometimes take bad angles? Or miss some open-field tackles?

Now tell me how many safeties have extraordinary talent to compensate for the inevitable mistake every player on every team sometimes makes?

I guess my answer is he doesn't do those things more often than any other player, and he's more capable of making up for mental mistakes than most.

Which makes him a pretty darn good player. Again.

[Oldfan]

]']While I don't disagree with EVERYTHING you've said' date=' using that worthless list as a source is quite foolish.[/quote']

These 11 "insiders" were GMs, coaches, and players.

[Oldfan]

:laugh: Stop the presses, Sean shouldn't even suit up since the 11 insiders don't deem him worthy.

How bout you get back to us when ESPN get's some documented coach's quotes as to what players require special attention in game planning.

These were quotes from GMs, coaches and players who understandably agreed to cooperate on the condition of anonymity. You can't take these expert opinions to the bank, but they are unbiased expert opinions.

What do you have to offer in opposition?

[CRobi21]

These were quotes from GMs, coaches and players who understandably agreed to cooperate on the condition of anonymity. You can't take these expert opinions to the bank, but they are unbiased expert opinions.

What do you have to offer in opposition?

He has better stats then all those players right now. Who cares what they say. Its there opinion. Doesn't make it right. Just cause there experts. George Bush is supposed to be an expert in politics isn't he. :doh:

[ffxdrummer]

He has better stats then all those players right now. Who cares what they say. Its there opinion. Doesn't make it right. Just cause there experts. George Bush is supposed to be an expert in politics isn't he. :doh:

No, that's why he has advisors.

I agree with you, I was just getting that out of the way before someone else said it like it was a brilliant comeback.

[CRobi21]

No, that's why he has advisors.

I agree with you, I was just getting that out of the way before someone else said it like it was a brilliant comeback.

Dangit, your right, I tried.

[Henry]

These were quotes from GMs, coaches and players who understandably agreed to cooperate on the condition of anonymity. You can't take these expert opinions to the bank, but they are unbiased expert opinions.

What do you have to offer in opposition?

Was that the list that had LaDanian Tomlinson listed below Antonio Gates, Ed Reed and Andre Johnson?

Eh.

Even if that list was indisputabe, my counter is that there are only three safeties on it, which means simply that Taylor is not one of the top three safeties in the game. There just aren't a lot of DBs on that list. In fact, here's a quote from one entry: "I would not change the plan for any safety because of the nature of the position."

Just because 'insiders' concern themselves more with LBs and WRs doesn't mean good DBs don't need to be accounted for.

[Oldfan]

I believe my answer to that question was "So what?"

Name a safety that doesn't sometimes take bad angles? Or miss some open-field tackles?

I noticed you didn't comment on my opinion of Taylor's tackling techniques. Sean's high tackling led to some big plays for our opponents in 2006. You didn't notice?

If you haven't noticed how frequently he's playing catch up in pass defense, then why isn't he making more game changing plays given the wonderful ability that we both see?

I guess my answer is he doesn't do those things more often than any other player, and he's more capable of making up for mental mistakes than most.

That remark doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement of a "feared, major impact player" to me.

Now tell me how many safeties have extraordinary talent to compensate for the inevitable mistake every player on every team sometimes makes?

None have his ability -- which makes it difficult for you to explain why he doesn't get better results.

[Oldfan]

Just because 'insiders' concern themselves more with LBs and WRs doesn't mean good DBs don't need to be accounted for.

The original claims that I debated in the first thread portrayed Sean Taylor as a feared, major impact player. If you now want to dilute that position to " a good DB who needs to be accounted for," I'll happily concede he's that.

[pjfootballer]

You take Sean Taylor out of our defense, and it'll fall to shambles. If you perfer smart athletes, you probably shouldn't like Landry, considering his yapping at the opposing team is going to get him flagged for taunting, especially when it is a pretty boneheaded thing for him to do.

I've seen Landry do that one too many times and have said on several occasions (yelled at the TV) for him to stop and get back to the huddle, or the yellow hanky will come out.

[Henry]

I noticed you didn't comment on my opinion of Taylor's tackling techniques. Sean's high tackling led to some big plays for our opponents in 2006. You didn't notice?

The defense was terrible in 2006. Taylor spent way too much time trying to make up for holes all over the team, and he took himself out of plays too often and played badly for it. We're not talking about last year.

If you haven't noticed how frequently he's playing catch up in pass defense, then why isn't he making more game changing plays given the wonderful ability that we both see?

Four interceptions in five games? Not one long bomb completed against the team all season long? Those positives far outweigh your personal opinion that the man's feet aren't far enough apart when he flattens someone.

In my opinion.

That remark doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement of a "feared, major impact player" to me.

I'm done trying to explain that he's capable of being a great player even if he's not perfect. You've made up your mind and reading what you want to read at this point.

None have his ability -- which makes it difficult for you to explain why he doesn't get better results.

I don't need to. I'm pleased with the results. You're the one that feels the need to explain why the guy anchoring the secondary of the #2 defense in the league is dissappointing.

[SonnyJ]

I think the problem with OldFan is that, in his eyes, ST has to MAKE plays to be a feared player. He's not accounting for the fact that, in this defense, ST's primary role is to PREVENT big plays from happening. If he happens to make plays along the way, all the better.

It's kind of a sweet, naive, almost child-like view of the world. After my kids play in one of their organized games, they'll bemoan how they didn't score a goal or get a TD. I'll point out to them that they directly prevented goals or TDs by great defense on a play that would have certainly have led to a score - which, in my book, is just as good and as important as scoring. The net effect is the same.

Most people realize the importance of PREVENTING the big play. Most people.

[Isifhan]

These were quotes from GMs, coaches and players who understandably agreed to cooperate on the condition of anonymity. You can't take these expert opinions to the bank, but they are unbiased expert opinions.

What do you have to offer in opposition?

Oh I dunno, just a few things

How about a current documented players opinion?

http://www.gamestop.com/product.asp?cookie%5Ftest=1&product%5Fid=270067

4. After one year in the league, who’s the hardest hitter in all of football?

I would say either Sean Taylor from Washington or Robert Griffith from Arizona. I’ve watched lots of film on both of them and you always have to know where they are every single play.

But of course teams don’t game plan for him right OF?

Maybe League recognition is enough for you?

http://www.redskins.com/news/newsDetail.jsp?id=22722

Sean Taylor has been named NFC Defensive Player of the Week for his performance in last Sunday's 17-13 win over the Carolina Panthers at FedExField.

Since you like ESPN and their “insiders” how about Mort on Sean Taylor

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167754&highlight=Sean+Taylor

“Taylor is the most physically gifted defender in the NFL, a real freak.”

Or perhaps you’d like former coach’s and players opinion’s:

Keyshawn Johnson speaking on ESPN radio about Sean Taylor:

Then he says "but the one that stands out is Sean Taylor". He said Taylor is huge and that when you watch film on him, he does "mind-boggling" things when it comes to the ground he can cover in the secondary.

He said that if Taylor "can just get his head straight", he could end up being one of the greatest players ever.

Parcells said he agreed with everything Keyshawn said.

But you're right, none of the above are unbiased expert opinions.

[SonnyJ]

Four interceptions in five games? Not one long bomb completed against the team all season long? Those positives far outweigh your personal opinion that the man's feet aren't far enough apart when he flattens someone.

I don't need to. I'm pleased with the results. You're the one that feels the need to explain why the guy anchoring the secondary of the #2 defense in the league is dissappointing.

It's unbelievable, isn't it? Here is direct evidence attesting to how well he is playing, Direct and attributed quotes from people saying how impressive he is as a player, yet he is still playing "maybe a little above average."

God help the league if he ever starts playing excellently. They may make the Redskins only play with 9 players on D if that happens...

[Baculus]

Flashy and overrated, Henry:D

If you took Ed Reed or Troy Polamalu out of your lineup, your D would suffer a big blow. Bob Sanders makes a big difference when he's healthy and playing for the Colts. I just don't think Sean makes that much difference.

I will admit to this bias: I prefer smart athletes with solid techniques to the amazing athletes who don't have those attributes. I'd trade Sean's big hits to get Landry's sure tackling ability.

Are you even watching the games? Have you even noticed that plays, which were lacking last year, Sean has brought to the field during this season? Yes, I know you are trying to prove that Sean isn't that much of a playmaker, but it flies in defiance of reality. Not only is Sean a playmaker this year, but he is definitely a player that coaches will need to take into account.

All your talk of bad angles, etc., may have been true of last year, and to be honest, you are talking as if you are still stuck on 2006: Any observer can see that Sean has certainly elevated his play in 2007. Well, only observers who aren't determined to cherry pick a players performance to match their already determined opinion.

There are few instances of Taylor demonstrating bad play during this season.

Incidentally, the NFL is a "What have you done for me lately?" league. In 2006, Taylor was not a great playmaker. Thus, folks around the league would n't probably include Taylor on a list of playmakers. Fast forward to 2007 - the here and now - and I will guarantee that this isn't the case. How do I know? Because time and time again, when the Redskins are discusses, their defense is always a topic of discussion, and Sean Taylor's name is always brought up as one of the very good players in the secondary.

Again, you are so determined to drive your point home, you seem to ignore reality to fit your perception. Watch Taylor THIS YEAR and you will see a top-5 NFL safety.

EDIT: What's funny is that Redskins - Packers highlights are playing, and they showed two defensive highlights were Taylor made plays.

[Oldfan]

Ishifan, with regard to your Post #144...I have to assume you dropped in on this thread at the end and haven't read all my posts.

Taylor's hard hitting is not questioned. I didn't need your player quotes to prove that. Nor did I need Keyshawn or Parcells to tell prove how gifted an athlete he is. In fact, my position is that his hard hitting and raw athletic ability are the reasons that many Redskins fans have him way overrated.

Has any expert gone on record as saying that Sean is a highly intelligent player who is seldom fooled, usually in the right position? Has anyone said that he is a fundamentally sound tackler, deadly in the open field? Has anyone mentioned him in the same sentence with Ed Reed or Troy Polamalu as to his impact on his team's defense? Has anyone said that the offensive coordinator has to game plan with Sean in mind?

[Henry]

Has anyone mentioned him in the same sentence with Ed Reed or Troy Polamalu as to his impact on his team's defense?

Uh, from post #1 in this thread?

Matt Williamson: (1:27 PM ET ) Needs to continue to show better discipline and he has improved greatly in this area, but yes-I could not agree more. He is a RARE cat. Has ZERO physical weaknesses. Is making a statement and if he stays dedicated, he will be better than Reed, Wilson and Troy P. Honestly. Good call.

Pretty sure the bolded part is one sentence.

[tone_dubbz]

I'm glad GDubb finally figured out a way to use Sean. Assign him the fulltime responsibility of playing the free safety position.

[CRobi21]

Ishifan, with regard to your Post #144...I have to assume you dropped in on this thread at the end and haven't read all my posts.

Taylor's hard hitting is not questioned. I didn't need your player quotes to prove that. Nor did I need Keyshawn or Parcells to tell prove how gifted an athlete he is. In fact, my position is that his hard hitting and raw athletic ability are the reasons that many Redskins fans have him way overrated.

Has any expert gone on record as saying that Sean is a highly intelligent player who is seldom fooled, usually in the right position? Has anyone said that he is a fundamentally sound tackler, deadly in the open field? Has anyone mentioned him in the same sentence with Ed Reed or Troy Polamalu as to his impact on his team's defense? Has anyone said that the offensive coordinator has to game plan with Sean in mind?

Uh the point of this thread is answering all your questions old timer.